Few questions on Wyndham resale

Hello Tuggers

I am currently researching for purchasing ownership in Wyndham. I'd like to get some recommendations from the experts here.

I hail from NC. But I am not particularly looking for any specific location or property. All I am interested in is to go visit and stay at various locations and I liked the fact that Wyndham has properties at various locations in US.

Which property to look for:
Are there any properties that people in this forum will recommend? In terms of maintenance fees/HOA/cost to ownership?

Exchange with other properties:
Does it matter in Wyndham world where I own the property - can I easily exchange my points against any of the other Wyndham properties? (Similar to HGVC)

Resale purchase options:
I am thinking to buy from resale market. Are there any recommendations on how to go about doing it? I looked around eBay, but I am nervous about doing it there. Is that generally recommended?

Agents:
Do I need to go with any agents? If so, any recommendations?

Points:
How many points will I need to buy? I am looking for an average of 1 week of stay every year.

Finally, but not the least important question, Is Wyndham the right choice? Are there any pitfalls that I need to be aware of when purchasing Wyndham>

Note:
I am an HGVC owner. I have 3400 points every other year, which isn't much. I got hooked at the sales presentation and did a direct purchase (duh!).
Even though the points are not much, the number of properties are also less in their case. I am limited to Orlando and Myrtle Beach for my regular vacations with family.

A few answers and additional questions to consider

First, congratulations on doing research first.

Wyndham does have a lot of resorts, more on the east coast than the west coast which probably fits your travel needs.

Wyndham also has a fairly easy to use, flexible points-based system.

Resale is clearly the way to go. There are many different places to check for resale points. Here on TUG, redweek, ebay, and some private sellers sites. What you need to know is, a lot of the ebay sellers do deal with heavy volumes, sometimes make mistakes, but generally do deliver (in the end). It can be a slow and somewhat painful process, and in some cases it may never get completed correctly. A search will reveal some sellers to avoid.

Within Wyndham, the only reason to own at a specific resort is for "ARP" at that resort. If, for example, you want to go to Myrtle Beach - Seawatch - in the summer - you need to own at Myrtle Beach. If you want to go to Mardi Gras at La Belle Maison, you need to own there. But if you are not going to these highly seasonal locations at their peak times, points from any resort spend just like points at any other resort - there is no difference at the 10 month mark. So then you would just want to minimize your maintenance fees, as the fees vary by resort.

Low maintenance fee resorts command higher resale prices because they cost less to own for the same number of points. The only exceptions to this are resorts where ARP is really required to book - Glacier Canyon and Myrtle Beach are typical examples. Low MF resorts include Bali Hai, South Shore, Canterbury, National Harbor, Grand Desert, Smoky Mountains, Steamboat Springs, certain Kingsgate converted weeks, etc. Low is below $5/K, average is $5.5, high is over $6/K.

One question you may want to ask yourself is, do you want/need to own at all. There are many owners with extra points to rent, and platinum owners can probably rent to you for less than you'd pay in maintenance fees.

Agent - not necessary.
How many points to buy - depends on where and when you go and how large a unit. Some resorts are 154K for a 2BR in prime season; others (especially newer) resorts are much higher. Multiples of 77K are good because each multiple of 77 gets you a reservation transaction (each day you make a reservation counts as a reservation transaction, regardless of how many reservation actions you make that day). I would probably recommend 231K which would be enough for a week at most locations.

Weekends are Fri and Sat nights only and are considerably more expensive than weekdays. You could probably squeeze 12 nights out of a week's worth of points if you have that flexibility in your travel planning.

Since you are HGVC, I'll piggyback on Eric's info, and hopefully get some translation into HGVC-speak (from what I've learned on the TUG forum).

There are 3 major types of ownership in Wyndham:
1) fixed weeks
2) Club Wyndham Plus (CWP) points
2a) Fixed weeks converted into CWP points
3) Club Wyndham Access (CWA) points

Fixed weeks are self explanatory, the points not as much.

There are three points booking windows:
a) Advance Reservation Priority (ARP): HGCV "Home Resort Window"

• 13-10 months
• 3, 4, or 7 nights for any season (but you don't need to use ARP if not Prime)

b) Standard Reservation: HGCV "Club Reservation Window"

• 10 months to 91 days
• 3, 4, or 7 nights in Prime
• 2-night minimum if not Prime

c) Express Reservation: HGCV "Open Season"

• 90 days and in
• 2-night minimum

For #2 and 2a, you have a UDI (undivided deeded interest) ownership in a "home resort" much like in HGVC, with the difference being you get a 13-10 month ARP window in which home resort owners get exclusive right to reserve at that resort (HGVC is 15-9 months). 2a is slightly different from 2 due to the underlying fixed week. For 2a, you are restricted to ARP booking for the underlying fixed week only.

For #3, CWA is a membership in a trust (i.e. a club) that itself owns deeds at various resorts throughout the Wyndham system. In other words, you only have indirect ownership of any deeds. CWA points have ARP at 55+ resorts, whereas CWP only has it at one home resort. CWA also reduces your overall risk of getting hit with a large Special Assessment.

That's great, you say! Why wouldn't everyone want CWA? Part of the issue is that there is a different pool of inventory at a given resort for CWA vs. CWP. Most legacy owners either own fixed weeks, or a certain amount of CWP points. CWA only has inventory at a resort if owners at that resort have "traded-in" their fixed weeks or points to get CWA points in return. Therefore, CWA inventory may be restricted to only certain weeks, or to a certain pool of the overall resort UDI point inventory.

With respect to Maintenance Fees, CWP is based on the rate at a single resort, which may be high ($6-8/1000 points) or low ($3.75-5/1000 points), as Eric says. CWA has a "blended" MF structure taking into consideration all the underlying deeds at all the resorts the trust owns. No one is quite sure how much a given resort comprises the entire CWA trust, but the blended CWA MF rate of $5.56/1000 points is often taken to be the "average" MF for the Wyndham system.

For all these points ownerships (2/2a/3), a "point is a point" at the 10-month mark and "spend" anywhere in the system. There is no "exchange" per se within the Wyndham system.

I, too, agree that 231k is the minimum I would recommend if you want a prime 2 BR. Adjust up or down for different unit size and/or season. Points can be "pooled" for up to 3 years from date of deposit into the pool for a single $39 fee. This same process can also "pull" future year's point into the current year (and last for 3 years from that date). So with 231k annual points, you can use them one year at a resort that only needs 154k, and then the next year use it at a place that costs 308k. The caveat: you must pool points PRIOR to the use year to which they belong (and they lose ARP status).

Unlike HGVC (from what I can tell), there is no ability to shift around reservations once made. Your only option in Wyndham is to cancel/rebook, and you are subject to current availability if you do so. Even if successful, this may incur additional charges.

akot783 said:

Hello Tuggers

I am currently researching for purchasing ownership in Wyndham. I'd like to get some recommendations from the experts here.

...

Finally, but not the least important question, Is Wyndham the right choice? Are there any pitfalls that I need to be aware of when purchasing Wyndham>

Note:
I am an HGVC owner. I have 3400 points every other year, which isn't much. I got hooked at the sales presentation and did a direct purchase (duh!).
Even though the points are not much, the number of properties are also less in their case. I am limited to Orlando and Myrtle Beach for my regular vacations with family.

Click to expand...

From the little info you've provide I can't say if Wyndham is the "right" choice, but it is a solid choice nonetheless.

Funny thing is, you and I are like mirrors of each other w.r.t. TS ownership. I am a West Coast guy, you are East. We both got hooked at a developer presentation and made direct purchases. If I wanted to expand my TS portfolio, HGVC would probably be my choice due to the similarities in ownership/booking structure/etc.. You seem to be interested in Wyndham!

Now here is why you might become a Wyndham owner and I probably won't join HGVC anytime soon. The buy-in (even via resale) for HGVC is seemingly much higher than it is for Wyndham, and the MF are a tad higher as well. I'd be okay with that since the quality is supposedly a bt higher as well, but it seems everywhere that HGVC has a presence, Wyndham is already there. On the other hand, Wyndham seems to have a presence in many places HGVC does not. So while it might provide me any more options, you will expand your possible locations with Wyndham.

Besides, I already own Wyndham's sister system (Worldmark), which has much more of a West Coast presence than either Wyndham or HGVC.

I realize HGVC has an affiliate system (Grand Pacific, etc.) which may open up more options for me, but I haven't yet determined it to be worth the extra expense since I already have the Wyn-WM combination.

WARNING: Pooled points DO NOT RETAIN their ARP rights.

If you buy the 231,000 ARP points, it is most likely the PRIME weeks need 231K to book. If you own 400K (total ARP for that resort), you could advance pool (before the use year starts), your future "leftovers" points (169K) leaving you will the NEEDED 231K with ARP usage.

If points are from a CONVERTED FIXED WEEK, the only ARP they will have is the Converted Fixed Week number and unit.

ie Wyndham Santa Barbara is almost NO UDI points contracts - it was SOLD as FIXED WEEKS and some weeks converted. Many foreclosed deeds are in CWA - hence some ARPs, but again, ONLY the weeks and units where CWA hold the deeded units.

OP
Very good advice from the posters above.

If you decide to buy Wyndham, my advice is to figure out whether you will need ARP regularly at any particular location.

Based on where you live, you may want to consider buying UDI points in Myrtle Beach.

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akot783 said:

Hello Tuggers
...
I hail from NC. But I am not particularly looking for any specific location or property. All I am interested in is to go visit and stay at various locations and I liked the fact that Wyndham has properties at various locations in US.

...
Note:
I am an HGVC owner. I have 3400 points every other year, which isn't much.
...
Even though the points are not much, the number of properties are also less in their case. I am limited to Orlando and Myrtle Beach for my regular vacations with family.

Click to expand...

massvacationer said:

OP
Very good advice from the posters above.
...
Based on where you live, you may want to consider buying UDI points in Myrtle Beach...

Click to expand...

OP,
You didn't make the distinction of whether the limitation to Myrtle Beach/Orlando was due to your limited HGVC ownership, or due to other factors.

I fogot to mention that all the Wyndham Myrtle Beach properties share ARP, so you could own at Ocean Boulevard, but get ARP at SeaWatch Plantation. This is unique in the Wyndham system and is a nice feature. In general, however, the MB properties have higher than average MF. Ocean Blvd is a little below average, likely due to the high-point-cost units there. But if I were to buy in MB, I'd buy OB for the lower MF and use them at the "cheaper" MB resorts to get hte best of both worlds. OB resale contracts do come at a bit of a price premium, so your break even point is likely around the 5-7 year mark vs. if you bought a really cheap contract at a higher MF resort in MB.

If you already have MB covered due to your HGVC membership, you may want to consider CWA. Without further info on what types of vacations you like to do and what time of year you want to do them, it's hard to make a resort-specific recommendation.

vacationhopeful said:

WARNING: Pooled points DO NOT RETAIN their ARP rights.

If you buy the 231,000 ARP points, it is most likely the PRIME weeks need 231K to book. If you own 400K (total ARP for that resort), you could advance pool (before the use year starts), your future "leftovers" points (169K) leaving you will the NEEDED 231K with ARP usage.
...

Click to expand...

It depends on how impacted a resort can be. I have had no problem getting a ski week for Christmas 2 years running without ARP (i.e., book at exactly 7 a.m. EST the day the Standard Reservation window opens). I will say that by the end of that first day, almost everything is gone, so the early bird gets the worm (especially when that bird is on the West Coast and up at 4 a.m.!!!)!

Myrtle Beach and Glacier Canyon in summer (for example) may be different.

Nowadays ARP claims almost all of the summer inventory at Glacier Canyon.

Resale points do not count towards VIP and are not eligible for the $99 exchange into Worldmark. At 10 months points are points.

Thanks everyone for the insightful information.

I am angling towards not going for a specific location. So ARP doesn't seem to be of much value-add in my case, especially since I am already owning at Myrtle Beach in HGVC. But if buying in MB/Orlando is what makes sense, I will go with it too.

Is there any where I can find the HOA/maintenance assessments data for various properties? I don't know if it is too much to ask, but if this data is available somewhere, it helps to make an informed decision.

Let me know if there are any recommendations for the properties to look out for. I saw few suggestions for properties in the second post.

uscav8r said:

.... So while it might provide me any more options, you will expand your possible locations with Wyndham....

Click to expand...

Thanks for validating my thought process here!

uscav8r said:

If you already have MB covered due to your HGVC membership, you may want to consider CWA...

Click to expand...

What's CWA?

Thanks for your recommendations and suggestions. I'll come back if I get additional questions as I continue with this quest

akot783 said:

What's CWA?

Click to expand...

I know it is a lot to digest, but re-read my description of Wyndham points in post #3.


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vacationhopeful said:

WARNING: Pooled points DO NOT RETAIN their ARP rights.

If you buy the 231,000 ARP points, it is most likely the PRIME weeks need 231K to book. If you own 400K (total ARP for that resort), you could advance pool (before the use year starts), your future "leftovers" points (169K) leaving you will the NEEDED 231K with ARP usage.

If points are from a CONVERTED FIXED WEEK, the only ARP they will have is the Converted Fixed Week number and unit.

ie Wyndham Santa Barbara is almost NO UDI points contracts - it was SOLD as FIXED WEEKS and some weeks converted. Many foreclosed deeds are in CWA - hence some ARPs, but again, ONLY the weeks and units where CWA hold the deeded units.

Click to expand...

Hi Linda. I just joined TUG Forum and have been searching for information w.r.t. Wyndham Santa Barbara. You seem to be quite knowledgeable about that resort. My wife and I have spent a few weeks each winter at WSB for the last three years and have really enjoyed the resort. We are Wyndham Gold VIP owners but have no points deeded at Santa Barbara. We currently have enough points to book 4 weeks each winter (10 months in advance) and so far we have been lucky. But since we are both retiring at the end of this year, we thought we would like to buy (on the resale market) enough additional WSB UDI points so that we could book 2 months (8 weeks) there each winter. We have currently engaged a broker to find such a package (or packages) for us. But, from what you are saying in this post, there may not be many (if any) UDI points packages in existence for this resort because of how it was sold. Do you know of any way to confirm that? We may be asking for something that just doesn't exist. So far, I have been stonewalled by Wyndham corporate just trying to find out what the HOA fees are for that resort.

That was a great thread. I was basically asking the same question on another forum. We just bought at 154k point resale and are considering adding on more. You answered all my questions.

uscav8r said:

There are 3 major types of ownership in Wyndham:
1) fixed weeks
2) Club Wyndham Plus (CWP) points
2a) Fixed weeks converted into CWP points
3) Club Wyndham Access (CWA) points

Click to expand...

Almost right Chris, , but not quite

There are fixed weeks (and floating weeks) at some Wyndham resorts but they are not part of Club Wyndham Plus (the points program)


Club Wyndham Plus (The Wyndham points program) is made of of three types of ownership

1) Club Wyndham Select (deeded interests, either weeks converted to points or UDI)
2) Club Wyndham Access
3) Presidential Reserve

The rest of the post I quoted above is probably the best summary of the system Ive ever read. I used to tell new owners to read the "book" especially pages 334-341 http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1415/
but now I think I will refer them to Chris'post

*****************************************************************

there no reason for me to post the rest of this as its all been said in the above posts, But as you will learn if you buy Wyndham points and frequent this forum, I cant help myself.
To paraphrase Decarte.( Cogito ergo sum). "I post, therefore I am"

At the 10 months mark, Club Wyndham Select points (UDI and converted weeks) and Club Wyndham Access points all work the same way. The shorthand that some of us use here is "Points are Points"


Where they differ is in their maintenance fees and how they work in the Advanced Reservation Priority (ARP) window. Maintenance fees are all assessed at the resort level, and as you woud expect, differ resort to resort. The ARP window is 13 months to 10 months ahead of check in,

There are only 2 reasons to buy at one resort over another, ARP and maintenance fees. If you just have to have a particular high demand time and location, buy at that resort (or CWA may work) . and of course lower maintenance fee contracts are almost always more expensive to buy than higher fee contracts.

And no there is no neat list of fees by resort There used to be on the Wyndham Owners Forum, but that forum is not nearly as active as it once was, and no one has updated their database in several years> Here is the 2012 version http://forums.atozed.com/download/file.php?id=2965

BigRobs summary is good enough for me
under $5/1000 is low
over $6/1000 is high

Although much like my age (70 is the new 50) I think $6 is fast becoming the new $5

Mastron said:

Hi Linda. I just joined TUG Forum and have been searching for information w.r.t. Wyndham Santa Barbara. You seem to be quite knowledgeable about that resort. My wife and I have spent a few weeks each winter at WSB for the last three years and have really enjoyed the resort. We are Wyndham Gold VIP owners but have no points deeded at Santa Barbara. We currently have enough points to book 4 weeks each winter (10 months in advance) and so far we have been lucky. But since we are both retiring at the end of this year, we thought we would like to buy (on the resale market) enough additional WSB UDI points so that we could book 2 months (8 weeks) there each winter. We have currently engaged a broker to find such a package (or packages) for us. But, from what you are saying in this post, there may not be many (if any) UDI points packages in existence for this resort because of how it was sold. Do you know of any way to confirm that? We may be asking for something that just doesn't exist. So far, I have been stonewalled by Wyndham corporate just trying to find out what the HOA fees are for that resort.

Click to expand...

Santa Barbara has NO UDI points or 11-13 month ARP. All points are from Converted Fixed Weeks which is WHY you have been able to book available inventory at SB. CWA has converted fixed weeks in it inventory pool ... as NO fixed weeks have been SOLD via the resort for since the very beginning of CWA (at least 10 years or since when the hurricane CLOSE the resort).

Wyndham when the resort closed would HONOR points off of converted fixed weeks for usage thru out the system ... F/W owners just had to PAY MFs and could NOT deposit or trade thru an exchange company. Yes, there were special assessments which both sets of owners HAD to pay ... causing MORE people to walk away from their ownerships. The HOA was broke but the resort was rebuilt. Owners dumped many great FIXED weeks after 3-4+ years of paying and paying with no usage.

I brought at the end of the closed years.... fixed weeks. And as an owner, I got a 'special on site tour' as work was being done ... no furniture, partial kitchens ... hard hats and 6' chain link fence. And then, brought some MORE weeks on the resale market.

Even after the resort re-opened, Wyndham refused to sell ANY fixed week contracts ... forcing the HOA to sit on them and letting the paying owners MF to continue to rise. CWA would request WHICH WEEKS and UNITS it would buy (to be placed into CWA) and the HOA sold them to CWA for $1 per deed. Other owners who would have paid THOUSANDS of dollar to the HOA for a desirable week where told no weeks were available to private sale ... at this time.

So ANY 10 month out week booked is most likely from CWP owners who did NOT reserve their converted fixed week --- between 10-13 month booking window. And those owners are really getting OLD in age ... if those weeks get taken back via the Ovations program, they will be given over to CWA .. never to be deeded back to another PRIVATE OWNER.

AND that is the 10 month inventory YOU are booking NOW. It will vanish ... unless you join CWA and play the 13 month booking window.

Or find those owners AND privately buy their FIXED WEEKS ... you can drop the conversion to points for FREE.

ADDED: Sea Gardens also has fixed weeks. No hurricane closings and the MFs are lower. Those winter weeks are easier to find at this larger resort. Spend time down there ... the resort is nice just different. And as those OLDER owners age, Ovations will get those deeds, too. But Sea Gardens owners are a bit more independent .. they have a WEB site where owners can post FOR SALE weeks... you just have to bargain with them. AND TUG has the Marketplace with for sale weeks.