Need advice on canceling/selling/defaulting on Worldmark membership for my mom.

Taken · Jul 16, 2014

She pays over $2k a month for a WorldMark timeshare Platinum membership. It's been going on several years, and she thinks she still has many more to go. Maybe ten more years, she's not sure. Even when it ends, apparently she's on the hook for monthly maintenance fees indefinitely.

I need to get her out of this.

She's almost 70, takes care of my Alzheimer's-addled father, and still works full-time and pays a mortgage that has like 30 years left. She's living paycheck to paycheck right now. She has already been taken by a couple resale scams to the tune of several more thousand dollars. Basically, my parents obviously made some poor financial decisions and my brother and I are now trying to mitigate the ongoing damages as best we can.

I've asked her to speak to a financial adviser. Apparently there are lawyers who specialize in real estate who might be able to advise, but they'll require a fee I assume.

What happens if she just stops paying the $2k/month? Obviously her credit will be damaged, but can Wyndham/Worldmark actually garnish her wages, take her house, etc.? She lives in California. She's already given them well over $100k and gotten back maybe a tenth of that using the points for a few vacations. How vicious will they be to hold her to the remainder of the contract?

LAX Mom · Jul 16, 2014

Welcome to TUG! I'm sorry about the challenges you are facing with your parents.

Do you know how much $$ is left on the Worldmark mortgage? She has already paid over $100,000?

I'm not a Worldmark/Wyndham expert, but there are others on TUG who will give you some good advice. It would help if you told us how many points your parents own and how much they still owe on these points.

If your mother stops paying on the loan, it will hurt her credit. But is that an issue for her at this time in her life?

Good luck!

benyu2010 · Jul 16, 2014

It doesn't have to be that complicated and costly. She may have someone take over monthly payment.

Passepartout · Jul 16, 2014

At 70 with significant medical expenses of her husband, perhaps bankruptcy should be considered. Her home is safe, but many expenses can be eliminated, including the timeshare contract. It is also possible that she is 'judgement proof', should she simply default. At 70, a high credit score might not be as important to her as to a person likely to enter into debt.

Another consideration is what happens to this timeshare when your parents pass? Have you and your siblings planned to keep it (them)? You need not accept valueless inheritance, but make sure the estate doesn't pay even one MF payment.

This might be a good time to visit with an attorney in your area who's familiar with estate planning and bankruptcy.

All the best,

Jim

ronparise · Jul 16, 2014

I just sent you a PM with my contact info...For what its worth, Ill be happy to advise,

If you owe less than its worth you can easily sell it. There are several very good, very honest brokers that deal in Worldmark that I can refer you to

sue1947 · Jul 16, 2014

A couple of thoughts:
The Platinum thing is Travelshare; a developer add on that has additional dues. That part of the $2000 per month can be eliminated now without any hit to a credit score.
WM accounts have some value; roughly 0.30/credit if there isn't a mortgage attached. Read through the threads at http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=72 and
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=71
to get a feel for things. WMowners is a Worldmark specific forum and has several reputable resellers who post there as well. You can get lots of good advice in the first link (where you can ask questions) and see what is for sale in the second (no replies allowed there).
If there is a mortgage, if it isn't too big, it is possible to get somebody to take over the payments.
A lot of it depends on the specifics of the account.

Sue

Taken · Jul 16, 2014

Thanks for all the info so far. I am trying to get specifics on the account from my mom and will update/reply to PMs when I have them.

It's true, she isn't too concerned about credit score at this point in her life, but is concerned about losing her house. But here:

Passepartout said:
At 70 with significant medical expenses of her husband, perhaps bankruptcy should be considered. Her home is safe, but many expenses can be eliminated, including the timeshare contract.

Passepartout seems to be saying definitively that is not a concern. Is that due to her age?

Also, sue, you mentioned the Travelshare part can be eliminated immediately without any hit to her credit. Why is this?

Excuse my ignorance, I have never had to think about any of this and am a total babe in the woods. We really should (and will) meet with a professional, but just looking to understand some basics first.

uscav8r · Jul 16, 2014

Taken said:
Thanks for all the info so far. I am trying to get specifics on the account from my mom and will update/reply to PMs when I have them.

It's true, she isn't too concerned about credit score at this point in her life, but is concerned about losing her house. But here:

Passepartout seems to be saying definitively that is not a concern. Is that due to her age?

Also, sue, you mentioned the Travelshare part can be eliminated immediately without any hit to her credit. Why is this?

Excuse my ignorance, I have never had to think about any of this and am a total babe in the woods. We really should (and will) meet with a professional, but just looking to understand some basics first.

Keep in mind credit scores don't just affect loan rates. They are also used to determine health, auto, and homeowners insurance premiums, so there are very applicable reasons not to just let one's score tank even in old age.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Passepartout · Jul 16, 2014

Taken said:
It's true, she isn't too concerned about credit score at this point in her life, but is concerned about losing her house. But here:

Passepartout seems to be saying definitively that is not a concern. Is that due to her age?

I say that because in bankruptcy, a person's home is (generally) protected under 'homestead' laws (they vary in amount by state).

I encourage you to see an attorney versed in local laws. If you don't have one, use the attorney referral function at www.nacba.org

Jim

benyu2010 · Jul 17, 2014

Defaulting in any type of obligation comes with consequence. It doesn't make sense to even contemplate that route if you( mom) may simply sell it. Based on brief information you provided, it seems in the ballpark that you may find a buyer quickly with little or no out-of-pocket expense, maybe net a bit.

Sue referred links are great read and you will be possibly more knowledgable of how to proceed afterward.

sue1947 · Jul 17, 2014

The basic Worldmark account has maintenance fees that run around 6-7 cents/credit. The formula is a set amount per 2500 credits but this is what it works out to be. If your mother is paying around $2000, she probably has 30-40,000 credits per year.

A few years ago, Wyndham purchased Trendwest. They then added in a developer perk called Travelshare and heavily sold it to current and new owners. To 'belong' to that program, you pay an additional fee each year. This fee gets you access to Travelshare but can be added or subtracted at any time. You aren't defaulting on a contract. Think of it like belonging to an airline's frequent flyer club. You can pay extra to gain access to the clubrooms at the airport but if you choose not to pay, you still have those frequent flyer miles. In this case, you can stop choosing Travelshare and stop paying those additional dues. The basic MF are still owed, but now much smaller.

Travelshare is mostly a bunch of fancy packaging and I see no benefit in it at all; with one exception. Platinum owners, which means more than 63000 annual credits, get free housekeeping. If you use the account frequently, this can be worth keeping. However, the dues on the basic 63000 credits would be more like $3500 plus the additional dues for Travelshare so something doesn't add up.
Below Platinum is Elite and Diamond, neither of which have much worth paying for. The dues cover the cost of RCI membership and internet connection and you can pay for those yourself for less.
TS status only transfers to relatives and not on resale so if you have an interest in keeping the account, you might want to check out that status to see if the no housekeeping thing is included.

Find out just how big the account is. If she isn't using it, cancel the Travelshare portion. Then decide on whether to sell.

Sue

LLW · Jul 17, 2014

The $3500 is per year, whereas the $2K is per month. It is a lot, especially for an elderly couple not financially well off.

So of the $2K, a little over $300 is probably dues (basic + TravelShare), and the remainder loan payment. The correct course of action really depends on the number of credits owned, number of credits currently available (with expiration dates)(those have readily marketable values), and the loan balance. Without those pieces of info we can't really provide good advice. Bankruptcy may not be the best option.

Just beware of scammers out there who offer to take the loan off your hands for a fee, who may not actually take it off your hands - just pretend to do so.

Also, ordinary attorneys may not understand how Worldmark accounts work and may need some education.

Taken · Nov 11, 2014

Ok, took a while, but I finally got some info:

. Contract type (ex: Premire, or NHK): Platinum Elite Owner

. Number of annual credits: 94,000

. Anniversary date: May

. Number of points available (w/o borrowing): 0 as in none.

. Number of points available to borrow: 77,759

. Loan balance: $100,581.97

. What amount/percentage of the account is Travelshare? 100% Travelshare

This is info my brother got through email from the company. Not sure how 100% of the account can be Travelshare. Based on sue1947's post, I was expecting 10-15%, as she was saying that portion can be canceled without penalty...

Rent_Share · Nov 11, 2014

What happened to the points, based on he personal situation there should be 188,000 points available, worth almost half of what the market value of the underlying contract.

Did one of the assist firms get ahold of the points ?

Travelshare is non transferable to anyone but a family member so it has no impact on value, just creates a slightly higher maintenance fee

Your parents need to file bankruptcy, the law will allow them to keep the house

rhonda · Nov 11, 2014

When we took our most recent Owners Update in Oct, I made it a point to ask questions about "Corporate Responsibility and Compassion." Specifically, I wanted to know what Wyndham/Worldmark was doing for owners who needed out of their ownership due to life changes, aging, and health concerns.

The answer: Worldmark would accept back any membership through 'default.' While the action might show as a foreclosure on that specific deed, it did not require the owner to file BK.

(Granted this answer came from the sales table but it sounded pretty solid/convincing.)

Passepartout · Nov 11, 2014

$100K+ in debt for a timeshare!!! Holy cow! Please, consult with an attorney in your area. I wouldn't recommend bankruptcy, not knowing any more than has been shared here, but Mom appears to be 'judgement proof' in other words, don't pay any more. Offer the TS back in lieu of foreclosure and if they don't go for it, let them foreclose.

Jim

persia · Nov 11, 2014

The first people you need to be talking to are the good folks at Worldmark. Explain the situation, ask them about a compassionate take back of the points. You may get lucky, it's the only option that won't cost you more money.

The scum that took her money also ran off with 188000 points, see if Worldmark can tell what happened to them.

Rent_Share · Nov 11, 2014

rhonda said:
When we took our most recent Owners Update in Oct, I made it a point to ask questions about "Corporate Responsibility and Compassion." Specifically, I wanted to know what Wyndham/Worldmark was doing for owners who needed out of their ownership due to life changes, aging, and health concerns.

The answer: Worldmark would accept back any membership through 'default.' While the action might show as a foreclosure on that specific deed, it did not require the owner to file BK.

(Granted this answer came from the sales table but it sounded pretty solid/convincing.)

Rhonda - you know better, there is no deed involved, so if the quote is accurate, the statement included a fabrication.

ronparise · Nov 11, 2014

Rent_Share said:
Rhonda - you know better, there is no deed involved, so if the quote is accurate, the statement included a fabrication.

Deed or no deed default is an option. There will be a hit on their credit, but probably no worse than a bankruptcy

sue1947 · Nov 11, 2014

Taken said:
Ok, took a while, but I finally got some info:

. Contract type (ex: Premire, or NHK): Platinum Elite Owner

. Number of annual credits: 94,000

. Anniversary date: May

. Number of points available (w/o borrowing): 0 as in none.

. Number of points available to borrow: 77,759

. Loan balance: $100,581.97

. What amount/percentage of the account is Travelshare? 100% Travelshare

This is info my brother got through email from the company. Not sure how 100% of the account can be Travelshare. Based on sue1947's post, I was expecting 10-15%, as she was saying that portion can be canceled without penalty...

Some additional thoughts based on the info above:
1. There is a current thread on wmowners.com;
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=41610 on Worldmark buying back accounts. That will be a good start for you.

2. An account with 94000 credits has maintenance fees of $5093.50 per year. This is separate from the interest owed on the loan.

3. A Travelshare account has additional dues. I don't have TS but in 2013, the amount for this account would have been $535; $65 + $5/1000 travelshare credits. Travelshare is an add on that the developer uses to try to convince people that paying ten times the amount for a developer purchase is worth it. So the dues bill per month is likely $424.46 for regular maintenance fees + $44.58 (higher for whatever increase there was for 2014) for travelshare dues = $469.04 per month + loan payment. Travelshare is not a separate section of the account but an additional layer on top of it all. A TS account over 63000 credits gets their housekeeping fees paid plus free wifi plus free RCI membership; not really free because that $535 pays for it (resale accounts pay wifi = $50, RCI = $89 and a 94000 account has 9 free HK stays).

4. The 94000 credit account gets 94000 credits each year with a 2 year expiration date. If this account hasn't been used, then there should be 94000 credits that expire in May 2015, another 94000 expire in May 2016 (these would have come into the account this past May) and another 94000 credits in the Available to borrow bucket that will be awarded in May of 2015. The number in the Avail to borrow is below so that means an addition 16,241 credits are missing. WM reservations costs are all multiple of one hundred so having 16241 instead of 16200 means something else is going on. Did they use some credits to pay for a cruise or magazine subscriptions or something? That last 16241 could not have been used before May of 2014 so you should not have to dig back too far to find out what happened.

5. The account is missing a total of 202241 credits. These can be rented out at roughly .065/credit so there is about $13000 worth of credits missing.

6. WM accounts have value at about 0.30/credit and sometimes higher with an assumable mortgage. However, the size of the account and especially the size of the mortgage makes selling it almost impossible. Your best bet is to try to get WM to take it back. I would bet that most of that loan is a fairly recent purchase and whoever sold it to them should be ashamed of themselves. But with Wyndham, that's par for the course.

Good luck and let us know how this develops.

Sue

Rent_Share · Nov 11, 2014

Passepartout said:
$100K+ in debt for a timeshare!!! Holy cow! Please, consult with an attorney in your area. I wouldn't recommend bankruptcy, not knowing any more than has been shared here, but Mom appears to be 'judgement proof' in other words, don't pay any more. Offer the TS back in lieu of foreclosure and if they don't go for it, let them foreclose.

Jim

Quick lesson in Worldmark Points -

94,000 points would be almost 12 weeks in a 1 bedroom or 9 weeks in a two bedroom in Red/High Season at most of the resorts developed before Wyndham purchased the management company.

SO depending on how you want to look at it, we are looking at equivalent of at least NINE TIMESHARES

Current retail selling price would be between $ 180,000 and $ 270,000 for what is owned, resale value closer to 27,000, could be closer to $40,000, if the account wasn't stripped (Zero Points Banked) so it is not hard to fathom that there could be a loan balance of $ 100,000.

Beaglemom3 · Nov 11, 2014

http://civilrightsca.com/?p=1025

Beaglemom3 · Nov 11, 2014

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187912

-

Taken · Nov 12, 2014

sue1947 said:
Some additional thoughts based on the info above:
1. There is a current thread on wmowners.com;
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=41610 on Worldmark buying back accounts. That will be a good start for you.

2. An account with 94000 credits has maintenance fees of $5093.50 per year. This is separate from the interest owed on the loan.

3. A Travelshare account has additional dues. I don't have TS but in 2013, the amount for this account would have been $535; $65 + $5/1000 travelshare credits. Travelshare is an add on that the developer uses to try to convince people that paying ten times the amount for a developer purchase is worth it. So the dues bill per month is likely $424.46 for regular maintenance fees + $44.58 (higher for whatever increase there was for 2014) for travelshare dues = $469.04 per month + loan payment. Travelshare is not a separate section of the account but an additional layer on top of it all. A TS account over 63000 credits gets their housekeeping fees paid plus free wifi plus free RCI membership; not really free because that $535 pays for it (resale accounts pay wifi = $50, RCI = $89 and a 94000 account has 9 free HK stays).

4. The 94000 credit account gets 94000 credits each year with a 2 year expiration date. If this account hasn't been used, then there should be 94000 credits that expire in May 2015, another 94000 expire in May 2016 (these would have come into the account this past May) and another 94000 credits in the Available to borrow bucket that will be awarded in May of 2015. The number in the Avail to borrow is below so that means an addition 16,241 credits are missing. WM reservations costs are all multiple of one hundred so having 16241 instead of 16200 means something else is going on. Did they use some credits to pay for a cruise or magazine subscriptions or something? That last 16241 could not have been used before May of 2014 so you should not have to dig back too far to find out what happened.

5. The account is missing a total of 202241 credits. These can be rented out at roughly .065/credit so there is about $13000 worth of credits missing.

6. WM accounts have value at about 0.30/credit and sometimes higher with an assumable mortgage. However, the size of the account and especially the size of the mortgage makes selling it almost impossible. Your best bet is to try to get WM to take it back. I would bet that most of that loan is a fairly recent purchase and whoever sold it to them should be ashamed of themselves. But with Wyndham, that's par for the course.

Good luck and let us know how this develops.

Sue

Thanks for the info, all, especially this, Sue.

To clarify, my mom *has* used points in the last couple years: two vacations for my brother and his wife to Fiji and Mexico for a week or so each (plane fare + rooms), one for me to Hawaii for five days (plane fare + rooms + rental car), and most recently plane fare only for my mom to Canada.

Basically, we've been trying to use the points which she hadn't touched for years, hoping she could start getting her money's worth. But then we started looking into things more deeply, saw she was paying $2k/month, maybe had $100k still to go..., hence this thread.

Not sure if the above uses would amount to 202,241 credits. That's over two years worth of payments -- i.e. $50k+! Seems ridiculously steep. But I don't know, maybe you get totally ripped off when you use the points on plane fare?

I read that thread about WM possibly buying back accounts, but it sounded like it was only for those without outstanding loans, which makes sense. Now, we may be able to convince them to *take* it back. If not, sounds like she should just stop paying and take the credit hit. Maybe bring up the class action lawsuit linked by Beaglemom3 if they get too uppity.

One last thing: I found this in our account details on the website:

DUES SUMMARY
Frequency Description Payment Amount Past Due
Amount Late Fee Total Due
Monthly WorldMark Dues $424.45 USD $0.00 USD $0.00 USD $0.00 USD
Monthly TravelShare Dues $0.00 USD $0.00 USD $0.00 USD $0.00 USD

The "WorldMark Dues" amount lines up within a penny to what you estimated the TraveShare dues would be... and yet those say $0.00. Confused on this.

jmroncamano · Nov 12, 2014

I am not sure why the TS part of the dues show $0 but mine also shows the same. My guess is they do not show because you would wonder why so much extra is being charged. We are on the Oregon coast so we use the dickens out of ours and I feel we get full benefit of the extra cost (we are platinum also) We seldom stay more than 3 days unless we are flying.

Need advice on canceling/selling/defaulting on Worldmark membership for my mom.

Taken

LAX Mom

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