Buying a Wyndham TS vs buying property

My wife likes to watch the HGTV channel and we see some some affordable beach front properties on the show. It got me to think about buying a property and then renting while not using it, which would be most of the year.

After doing some research and number crunching buying a resale timeshare seems to make a lot more sense. I guess you do have the potential of making money buying something in a beach town where you could rent it out, but there is also a great deal of risk and a lot of upfront cash could be required.

I am in the process of buying a Club Access to add to the Wyndham properties I already own and I can still vacation at a condo on or near the beach for two to three weeks a year with no risk of losing more than what I pay for my MFs. I guess if I wanted to vacation for months at a time buying a vacation property could make more sense. I guess I am just wanting to say I appreciate the value of a resale timeshare a little more now.

Gary

And as A REGULAR TS resident on the South Florida Broward County beach area (mainly Wyndham) timeshares --- I can stay within sight of the ocean from Thanksgiving to Easter between my 4 targeted resorts --- combination of FIXED DEEDED WEEKS, ARP booking window at Royal Vista, and Home Resort RCI Points reservations.

And there are multiple other tug MEMBERS who do stay for 4-8+ weeks .... they are retired while I am still working.

timeshare vs vacation rental

it depends are what you are trying to achieve. i own both. i love my DRI points, only like my wyndham points, and enjoy my FL townhouse. My FL townhouse only makes sense due to it being a foreclosure at the bottom of FL real estate disaster.

if you decide to own, carefully checkout the community, and management including the HOA.

stephen

Today I was contacted by a regular RE sales person for 2 ads I have running for selling 2 winter weeks in South Florida .... wanted to know what my "built in co-broker amount was" ... WHAT??? I also was trolling thru my emails from other TS rental or resale sites --- guess who has a resale listing for my same resort for $1005 more than my asking price??? Different weeks and unit ...

PM for details ... I wonder if this broker is a TUG Member????

gstepic said:

My wife likes to watch the HGTV channel and we see some some affordable beach front properties on the show. It got me to think about buying a property and then renting while not using it, which would be most of the year.

After doing some research and number crunching buying a resale timeshare seems to make a lot more sense. I guess you do have the potential of making money buying something in a beach town where you could rent it out, but there is also a great deal of risk and a lot of upfront cash could be required.

I am in the process of buying a Club Access to add to the Wyndham properties I already own and I can still vacation at a condo on or near the beach for two to three weeks a year with no risk of losing more than what I pay for my MFs. I guess if I wanted to vacation for months at a time buying a vacation property could make more sense. I guess I am just wanting to say I appreciate the value of a resale timeshare a little more now.

Gary

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Ron Parise has recently posted about how he is doing this with timeshares. He wants to spend time with different family members so TSs will work better for him than buying a regular condo. He has laid out a good argument that it will be cheaper and less hassle. If he comes to this thread he may be able to find the post.

Post #57 in this thread is the one I was looking for.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1665908#post1665908

gstepic said:

I guess you do have the potential of making money buying something in a beach town where you could rent it out, but there is also a great deal of risk and a lot of upfront cash could be required.

Gary

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Are you including the risk of continued sea level rise?

My wife and I always spoke about getting a second home. But I'm a retired investment banker who was trained as a demographic economist so I can't do anything without spreadsheets, number crunching etc. I could never make the numbers work on buying vs. just staying at a hotel.

Stumbling on to TUG and timeshare rentals have been the best of both worlds. We take 6+ weeks of vacation (way more than we probably would have used a vacation home) and its way most cost effective than owning a second home.

This really is the best of both worlds. The only crummy part is having to pack for every vacation but given the $$$ saved I'm a happy guy!!

I have both.

And I had a third option that I recently divested due to being able to leverage my timeshare ownership for the same purpose - but it can also be a good option. Fractional ownership, where the owners "manage" the unit themselves. We had a 1/10th share and every 10th week was ours to do with what we chose.

The idea of renting seasonal properties when you wouldn't be using it only works if YOU are the one using it off season. If you are only renting it offseason, you won't offset your expenses much by that.

We have a whole ownership at River Lodge (the unit that adjoins Wyndham Great Smokies Lodge). We've only stayed there twice - the rents are too good during the time we would go, that we just use our points now and stay at the Wyndham instead. But at the end of the mortgage, we would have a whole ownership (with value) rather than a timeshare obligation (which many consider to be a liability). In fact, that property is already cash flow positive.

We also have two ski properties at Snowshoe Mountain. Unfortunately, bought at the peak, so despite the elevation they're under water. (A little gallows real estate humor there at my own expense). And they DON'T cover the mortgage, due in part to the very high HOA fees there.

So you do have to choose very carefully. My Father-in-Law, after years of lusting after a beach house at the Outer Banks, finally got one. They only held it 2-3 years, sold it for a loss, and the main reason leading them to get out was it was a huge burden financially and they hated renting it out, because they were very particular and it was THEIR property.

So you do really have to think about what's important to you and what you value. If the idea of a "home away from home" with your own things in it appeals to you, then a vacation property or second home might work best. But for having choices and flexibility, a points-based timeshare ownership is the way to go (after having owned all 3 types).

The risk could be devastating

I guess we just have to balance the risk versus the reward. We really do not have a ton of discretionary income so buying probably is not a great idea. I do like the idea of having a rental as a hedge against inflation, but for this it is probably wiser to just buy a residence nearby where it would be easier to manage and you have a permanent tenant. Of course there is always the risk of not being able to rent any property but having to only cover a mortgage and utilities is much easier than having to cover mortgage, utilities, and HOA fees (of course we could buy a beachfront home instead of a condo).

We saw an episode of Beach Front Bargains on the HGTV channel where some single mom ended up buying two Panama City Beach condos, saying she can always rent the one she will not always use. What they never discuss is how it actually works out and what the real costs are.

We are a little shy of 500,000 annual points and pay about $225 per month in MFs. This is two to three weeks at the Majestic Sun or Panama City Beach resort, depending on room size and time of the year. So even if I double my points, which would not cost much on the resale market, I would be paying around $500 a month which provides about a month worth of beach vacation without any risk of losing any more than the MFs. And of course I can use those points for properties all over the country.

And there is always the option of renting my weeks and I think there are some that are pretty good at using their points to provide some rental income. I think I have talked myself out of buying anything and maybe just concentrate on buying more points on the TS resale market. Once my wife retires, which will be another 9 years, then it could make more sense to buy something if we can cover any worst case scenarios when it comes to renting.

Gary

Owning a beachfront condo, house in Florida you have to consider hurricanes, and the cost of insurance, plus the new flood insurance rates yet to be settled could make the cost of owning a house only for the ultra wealthy. Condo's at least you split the cost with the number of condo owners.

TS ownership is so easy, you have a place all over the world pretty much when you want and for how long based upon points owned. If someone has limited cash resale TS ownership is the way to go, limited down side MF that's it and maybe a special assessment now and then.

Renting a house/ Condo carries it own risk one bad tenant can cause you you entire years profit, so are lucky and never have an issue, but others can get two bad one in a row.

Having both the TS win hands down in ease of use and less head aches. Condo needs new dishwasher, garbage disposal right now. I don't even think about that with the TS.
JMHO

DH and I had a lake house in NJ for 4 years and eventually moved to the town, in a more suitable home, full time.

The problem was the lake house was only 45 minutes from home. We loved it so much we came every weekend, even in winter. We lost touch with our home community. Every week we were carting stuff between homes, grocery shopping in each location, etc.

Maybe a resort would be better than a lake house, esp if you can rent the resort unit. I think the main point in preferring an actual resort home it to the mental notion of owning a vacation home.

You would have pride of ownership if you buy the unit. But I think you need to look at ownership versus TS.

I can say we owned rental properties in our current state and it's a headache dealing with renters. Also, many of my friends who have vacation homes feel a sense of 'guilt' when they can stay there or want to go somewhere else. My family loves 3 locations we visit anually although we don't even like to stay in the same location every year. Therefore, for us, timesharing is most satisfying and cost effective. With that said, I would prefer my homebase be somewhere I'd consider a 'vacation' however, the work commute time isn't quite worth it yet.

winnipiseogee said:

My wife and I always spoke about getting a second home. But I'm a retired investment banker who was trained as a demographic economist so I can't do anything without spreadsheets, number crunching etc. I could never make the numbers work on buying vs. just staying at a hotel.

Stumbling on to TUG and timeshare rentals have been the best of both worlds. We take 6+ weeks of vacation (way more than we probably would have used a vacation home) and its way most cost effective than owning a second home.

This really is the best of both worlds. The only crummy part is having to pack for every vacation but given the $$$ saved I'm a happy guy!!

Click to expand...

It is a pain to pack each time. What we do now is we have a few boxes ( copy paper boxes from the office) that we keep permanently stocked with regularly used items so we can just toss them in the car and go. We do, of course, have to pack our clothes and some food items, but it makes things way simpler. We have 2 kitchen boxes, a toiletries box and another for misc.

Obviously this works for road trips and not fly to ones.

mpumilia said:

It is a pain to pack each time. What we do now is we have a few boxes ( copy paper boxes from the office) that we keep permanently stocked with regularly used items so we can just toss them in the car and go. We do, of course, have to pack our clothes and some food items, but it makes things way simpler. We have 2 kitchen boxes, a toiletries box and another for misc.

Obviously this works for road trips and not fly to ones.

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I mostly do the FLY to vacations. I have a 6-pack size soft insulated bag which I keep packed with supplies for a TS condo. I simply throw that into the checked bag (airplane travels) ... has powdered coffee creamer, instant oatmeal packets, a zip lock baggy of sugar/blue packets plus seasonal stuff like dry soup or chili ... I can feed myself dinner and several breakfasts, if need be (late night arrivals or bad weather).

hjtug said:

Are you including the risk of continued sea level rise?

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absolutely... which is why Im planning my second home(s) outside of Florida.

I live in a second homemarket (SW Florida) and some of my neighbors are snowbirds, Here for 3-6 months out of the year. From my observations it seems that these are truly, second homes, with all the headachs of home ownersship, not vacation homes. They spend as much time, and as much money maintaining the place as I do. (the grass grows 12 months of the year here, and the bushes need to be trimmed every month too) They get a water bill every month, the air conditioning needs to be run in the off season to head off any mold, and although Comcast. has a reduced rate when you are not here...they still bill you to "hold "the account. Gotta say, packing to go to a timeshare condo seems a whole lot easier to me,

I am a real estate agent and although I spend most of my time now buying and selling and renting timeshares. I have some experience sellins condos to the second home/retirement market. The example that stands out for me is the guy that bought at the bottom of the market (sorry Eric, for every guy that bought at the top, like you and me, theres one that bought at the bottom) He got a beautiful 3 bedroom condo, on the 19th floor overlooking the Caloosahatchee River, for $250000, his annual carry (taxes, condo fees and utilities) is about $18000, not to mention the lost income and opportunity cost on the $250k he has tied up in this place

Compare that to my Wyndham points. My 3 million point Platinum account cost me next to nothing (and is enough for 6 months in a resort) and my carry (mf) is about 15000 a year. and the bonus is since I bought these points at the bottom, they are worth more than I paid

Or compare it to my 300000 Worldmark credits (enough for 30 weeks in a resort) Now this stuff costs some real money, but at about $100000 its still less than half of what my client paid for his Ft Myers condo) and my carry (mf) is less than $18000 a year. The advantage to Worldmark is that you can make long reservations, ie no risk of having to move every week.

The only objection I have heard to timeshares over full ownership is the lost appreciation potential. But as Eric will tell you "thats not guaranteed" and in my case it doesnt matter, I dont have $250k to invest anyway.


Oh and did I mention Im paying for what I will use myself (both the purchace price and the on going maintenance) with the profits from my little rental opearation. can you say.."free" second home?

winnipiseogee said:

My wife and I always spoke about getting a second home. But I'm a retired investment banker who was trained as a demographic economist so I can't do anything without spreadsheets, number crunching etc. I could never make the numbers work on buying vs. just staying at a hotel.

Click to expand...

I have a financial background too and just can't make the numbers work for a truly rental vacation property. We already have a second home in FL that we spend about 4-5 months a year and don't rent out. I was thinking about a vacation property in a beach location (i.e. Cape Cod) and renting during season. I think my problem is this....

Bigrob said:

The idea of renting seasonal properties when you wouldn't be using it only works if YOU are the one using it off season. If you are only renting it offseason, you won't offset your expenses much by that.

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I couldn't get over the fact that to offset costs, I would have to rent during the very short summer season on Cape Cod. That's exactly when I would want to use the place.

Edited to add: I'm very happy with my Wyndham ownership and glad I purchased into Wyndham rather than getting a vacation place. We been to so many places in a little over a year and have a big trip next summer for 4 weeks across the country staying mostly at Wyndham resorts.

If you are comparing buying a wyndham timeshare vs a vacation home you have to consider VIP. It may not be for you but will make a big difference in what you are considering.

VIP?

am1 said:

If you are comparing buying a wyndham timeshare vs a vacation home you have to consider VIP. It may not be for you but will make a big difference in what you are considering.

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What is "VIP"?

mtm65 said:

What is "VIP"?

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There are 3 levels of Wyndham VIP -- VIP, GOLD VIP and PLATINUM VIP ... and then, Presidential Level...

VIP is 400K directly brought from Wyndham points. GOLD is 600K+ and Platinum VIP is 1,000,000 directly brought points. And that is the official Wyndham Corporate info ... please, let us NOT go into discounted anything methods.... on this thread.

Each VIP level has a discount point booking window and window for FREE unit upgrades, IF available empty units. The best discounts are the 60 day from check in using only 50% of the Users Manual points and upgrade at that date. GOLD is 60 day discounted points is 35% off and upgrade at 45 days out. VIP is 60 day with 25% off points and upgrade at 30 days out.

Do some searches on Wyndham VIP discounts --- get lots of ideas ... this is the basics.

vacationhopeful said:

There are 3 levels of Wyndham VIP -- VIP, GOLD VIP and PLATINUM VIP ... and then, Presidential Level...

VIP is 400K directly brought from Wyndham points. GOLD is 600K+ and Platinum VIP is 1,000,000 directly brought points. And that is the official Wyndham Corporate info ... please, let us NOT go into discounted anything methods.... on this thread.

Each VIP level has a discount point booking window and window for FREE unit upgrades, IF available empty units. The best discounts are the 60 day from check in using only 50% of the Users Manual points and upgrade at that date. GOLD is 60 day discounted points is 35% off and upgrade at 45 days out. VIP is 60 day with 25% off points and upgrade at 30 days out.

Do some searches on Wyndham VIP discounts --- get lots of ideas ... this is the basics.

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Thanks! I have so much to learn about timesharing! This is so interesting and challenging. I think I may be getting addicted

vacationhopeful said:

There are 3 levels of Wyndham VIP -- VIP, GOLD VIP and PLATINUM VIP ... and then, Presidential Level...

VIP is 400K directly brought from Wyndham points. GOLD is 600K+ and Platinum VIP is 1,000,000 directly brought points. And that is the official Wyndham Corporate info ... please, let us NOT go into discounted anything methods.... on this thread.

Each VIP level has a discount point booking window and window for FREE unit upgrades, IF available empty units. The best discounts are the 60 day from check in using only 50% of the Users Manual points and upgrade at that date. GOLD is 60 day discounted points is 35% off and upgrade at 45 days out. VIP is 60 day with 25% off points and upgrade at 30 days out.

Do some searches on Wyndham VIP discounts --- get lots of ideas ... this is the basics.

Click to expand...

Actually 700k+ for Gold...

vacationhopeful said:

There are 3 levels of Wyndham VIP -- VIP, GOLD VIP and PLATINUM VIP ... and then, Presidential Level...

VIP is 400K directly brought from Wyndham points. GOLD is 600K+ and Platinum VIP is 1,000,000 directly brought points. And that is the official Wyndham Corporate info ... please, let us NOT go into discounted anything methods.... on this thread.

Each VIP level has a discount point booking window and window for FREE unit upgrades, IF available empty units. The best discounts are the 60 day from check in using only 50% of the Users Manual points and upgrade at that date. GOLD is 60 day discounted points is 35% off and upgrade at 45 days out. VIP is 60 day with 25% off points and upgrade at 30 days out.

Do some searches on Wyndham VIP discounts --- get lots of ideas ... this is the basics.

Click to expand...

Another important distinction is the number of free guest certificates. 1 for basic, 5 for VIP Silver, 10 for VIP gold, 15 per Million for platinum VIP. The Presidential level Linda refers to affords certain reservation rights into Presidential Reserve units, but does not offer additional discounts.

The other aspect to VIP is the free housekeeping and reservation transactions.