Wow! Marriott buys into Atlantis Resort! [split from other thread]

SMHarman · Jul 7, 2014

They posted it on the daily restaurant opening sheets.

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk

twinmommy19 · Jul 10, 2014

If Marriott wants the Harborside TS, there could be ways to push Starwoods on the issue now that they have control over the resort itself. For instance, is there a rock solid lifetime guarantee of usage of Atlantis facilities for all Harborside guests? Take away that access, and the value of Harborside would really suffer. Regardless of whether this is possible, I could see the Marriott sales reps putting this threat out there to try and convince owners to convert (telling them if they don't one day they will lose access to Atlantis property). Needless to say - if I owned a Vistana or Scottsdale Staroptions week for the primary purpose of trading into HRA I'd probably be worried about this...

That said - Marriott may not even want to bother with Harborside. The Reef is a beachfront, luxury version of Harborside. If they want to add Atlantis to the MVC portfolio I'm sure they could add units there without even bothering with the legal issues.

komosatp · Jul 10, 2014

bonk2boy said:
For instance, is there a rock solid lifetime guarantee of usage of Atlantis facilities for all Harborside guests?

Yes, there is a permanent access deed. Atlantis would basically have to shut-down its grounds to everyone, including Atlantis hotel guests, to deny HRA owner/guest access to Atlantis amenities.

I have a dispute with Atlantis and the SVO HRA BOD about access to parts of Atlantis' grounds, which you can see here. So I'm quite familiar with the access deed.

bonk2boy said:
The Reef is a beachfront, luxury version of Harborside. If they want to add Atlantis to the MVC portfolio I'm sure they could add units there without even bothering with the legal issues.

Reef was sold as a hotel-condominium, not a timeshare. One unit has only one single owner. Most of the units there are owned by individuals, but there's a few left in Atlantis inventory that might, theoretically, be available for timeshare usage. But these units have values in the 7-figure range....and there probably are not enough units to make a floating system work, so it would be fixed week/fixed unit.

The bottom line is this was probably a value-add play for Marriott to add a signature property to use in its hotel loyalty system. And to have an inside track if/when Brookfield decides to sell Atlantis. Brookfield likes it because they have a seasoned hotel managment company ready to step-in should the newly formed Atlantis management company not measure up.

SueDonJ · Jul 10, 2014

bonk2boy said:
If Marriott wants the Harborside TS, there could be ways to push Starwoods on the issue now that they have control over the resort itself. For instance, is there a rock solid lifetime guarantee of usage of Atlantis facilities for all Harborside guests? Take away that access, and the value of Harborside would really suffer. Regardless of whether this is possible, I could see the Marriott sales reps putting this threat out there to try and convince owners to convert (telling them if they don't one day they will lose access to Atlantis property). Needless to say - if I owned a Vistana or Scottsdale Staroptions week for the primary purpose of trading into HRA I'd probably be worried about this...

That said - Marriott may not even want to bother with Harborside. The Reef is a beachfront, luxury version of Harborside. If they want to add Atlantis to the MVC portfolio I'm sure they could add units there without even bothering with the legal issues.

komosatp said:
Yes, there is a permanent access deed. Atlantis would basically have to shut-down its grounds to everyone, including Atlantis hotel guests, to deny HRA owner/guest access to Atlantis amenities.

I have a dispute with Atlantis and the SVO HRA BOD about access to parts of Atlantis' grounds, which you can see here. So I'm quite familiar with the access deed.
Reef was sold as a hotel-condominium, not a timeshare. One unit has only one single owner. Most of the units there are owned by individuals, but there's a few left in Atlantis inventory that might, theoretically, be available for timeshare usage. But these units have values in the 7-figure range....and there probably are not enough units to make a floating system work, so it would be fixed week/fixed unit.

The bottom line is this was probably a value-add play for Marriott to add a signature property to use in its hotel loyalty system. And to have an inside track if/when Brookfield decides to sell Atlantis. Brookfield likes it because they have a seasoned hotel managment company ready to step-in should the newly formed Atlantis management company not measure up.

Marriott and Marriott Vacations Worldwide both have options here without incorporating Harborside into the mix at all. Atlantis rooms/units can be offered through the hotel loyalty program, Marriott Rewards, using MR Points and Travel Packages the same as any other hotel/resort in the portfolio. As well, they could be made available to the timeshare owners/members who participate in the Destination Club, using their DC Points the same as any other participating Autograph property (which is through the DC Explorer Collection.)

Harborside could definitely stand alone, especially if access to the Atlantis amenities is and must be incorporated into all of the legal filings involved in Marriott's affiliation here.

What is the Reef; how does it fit into the entire complex? Is that what the water park is called?

{eta} Doh! Right there in front of my face! I see, it's another separate building, of wholly-owned condos? Do Harborside and/or other Starwood owners have access to Reef units?

Westin5Star · Jul 10, 2014

It's situations like this that I wish Jarta would contribute :hysterical:

Salty

komosatp · Jul 11, 2014

komosatp said:
Conversions of any units from hotel rooms to timeshares is highly unlikely. That would be making a material change to the collateral behind the loans. You can't do that (unless its already structured that way in the deal).

Potentially interesting development: this week's Commercial Mortgage Alert did not have an article about this transaction. That could mean that new loans are not making their way into a security. If they aren't headed to a Wall Street CMBS, there is potentially more latitude to make changes to the hotel towers at Atlantis. For example, one of the institutions that has a piece of the debt could choose to restructure their piece into a construction loan, were Atlantis/Brookfield to decide to make some sort-of change.

If the loan makes it way into a CMBS, its much more difficult to make change to underlying collateral, because the legal trusts that make up the security are set up to keep the collateral stable, so the security can be easily traded.

SueDonJ said:
What is the Reef; how does it fit into the entire complex? Is that what the water park is called?

{eta} Doh! Right there in front of my face! I see, it's another separate building, of wholly-owned condos? Do Harborside and/or other Starwood owners have access to Reef units?

No HRA or SVO access to Reef units, other than $$$$$s.

The right way of looking at this is Harborside is a separate legal entity from Atlantis, with HRA access to Atlantis's amenities granted by virtue of an access deed (and a related access payment from HRA owners to Atlantis contained within HRA annual dues). There is no relationship between HRA and the Reef, other than the overall access agreement.

I don't know the details of the Reef's legal structure, but there are a few things I'm pretty sure about:
1) Reef units are owned by individuals. Owners must rent their units via Atlantis' hotel occupancy system for at least 3/4 of the nights of the year, or they are subject to a huge Bahamian duty/tax related to buying Bahamian property and/or being a Bahamian resident. I've heard its on the order of 100% of the purchase price of the unit.

2) Atlantis has some pretty strict rules about owners being required to renting their unit through the Atlantis hotel-room booking system, rather than doing it themselves (undercutting other owners and racing to the bottom, etc.).

3) When Reef owners occupy their unit, for the 90 or so days per year they are allowed to do so, they have to pay daily usage fees to Atlantis, on the order of $100 per person per night.

4) The Reef was part of trend in the heyday of the housing-boom to build hotel-condos. See Vdara and The Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas. This idea hasn't really been successful, but I think its turned ok at the Reef for both the Developer and the owners. I've seen reports of owners of Reef units having to sometimes cut a check to Atlantis because hotel room rents are not covering condo dues. Some report their unit are making a decent income. The units were sold for millions in the first place, so people with significant means bought them.

I imagine Marriott's point system at Atlantis will either be super-expensive, or complicated. That's because there are five different level of accommodation at Atlantis, plus Harborside. And each of those five levels has multiple views and room types within them. Go do a dummy booking at Atlantis and you'll see what I mean.

SueDonJ · Jul 11, 2014

komosatp said:
Potentially interesting development: this week's Commercial Mortgage Alert did not have an article about this transaction. That could mean that new loans are not making their way into a security. If they aren't headed to a Wall Street CMBS, there is potentially more latitude to make changes to the hotel towers at Atlantis. For example, one of the institutions that has a piece of the debt could choose to restructure their piece into a construction loan, were Atlantis/Brookfield to decide to make some sort-of change.

If the loan makes it way into a CMBS, its much more difficult to make change to underlying collateral, because the legal trusts that make up the security are set up to keep the collateral stable, so the security can be easily traded.

No HRA or SVO access to Reef units, other than $$$$$s.

The right way of looking at this is Harborside is a separate legal entity from Atlantis, with HRA access to Atlantis's amenities granted by virtue of an access deed (and a related access payment from HRA owners to Atlantis contained within HRA annual dues). There is no relationship between HRA and the Reef, other than the overall access agreement.

I don't know the details of the Reef's legal structure, but there are a few things I'm pretty sure about:
1) Reef units are owned by individuals. Owners must rent their units via Atlantis' hotel occupancy system for at least 3/4 of the nights of the year, or they are subject to a huge Bahamian duty/tax related to buying Bahamian property and/or being a Bahamian resident. I've heard its on the order of 100% of the purchase price of the unit.

2) Atlantis has some pretty strict rules about owners being required to renting their unit through the Atlantis hotel-room booking system, rather than doing it themselves (undercutting other owners and racing to the bottom, etc.).

3) When Reef owners occupy their unit, for the 90 or so days per year they are allowed to do so, they have to pay daily usage fees to Atlantis, on the order of $100 per person per night.

4) The Reef was part of trend in the heyday of the housing-boom to build hotel-condos. See Vdara and The Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas. This idea hasn't really been successful, but I think its turned ok at the Reef for both the Developer and the owners. I've seen reports of owners of Reef units having to sometimes cut a check to Atlantis because hotel room rents are not covering condo dues. Some report their unit are making a decent income. The units were sold for millions in the first place, so people with significant means bought them.

I imagine Marriott's point system at Atlantis will either be super-expensive, or complicated. That's because there are five different level of accommodation at Atlantis, plus Harborside. And each of those five levels has multiple views and room types within them. Go do a dummy booking at Atlantis and you'll see what I mean.

Thanks for this, komosatp. We're in agreement that Harborside can exist as is, completely separate from Marriott's affiliation with Atlantis but still with total access.

But the Reef access through Atlantis' booking system is interesting. Should MVW begin offering Atlantis through the Explorer Collection in its Destination Club (not all of the Autograph properties are available in this way,) the Reef condo units could mean a more traditional timeshare set-up than the hotel units. Like you say, though, there should be no doubt that if it happens it will be expensive DC Points-wise even with a sliding scale based on unit size/location/date. Most of the Autograph Collection options are.

twinmommy19 · Jul 11, 2014

But the Reef access through Atlantis' booking system is interesting. Should MVW begin offering Atlantis through the Explorer Collection in its Destination Club (not all of the Autograph properties are available in this way,) the Reef condo units could mean a more traditional timeshare set-up than the hotel units.

Yes - very interesting. The Reef is set up very much like a traditional TS. Even the studios have mini-kitchens with stove tops and microwaves plus from what I remember having stayed a long time ago, there was also laundry facilities (not in the room but on site for studio guests).

I also wonder if Marriott will figure out a way to take a percentage of the units that are owned and currently rented out by Atlantis and somehow bundle them into TS sales (obviously not deeded sales but perhaps they can come up with some creative form of a RTU contract that complies with Bahama law)?

komosatp · Jul 11, 2014

bonk2boy said:
I also wonder if Marriott will figure out a way to take a percentage of the units that are owned and currently rented out by Atlantis and somehow bundle them into TS sales (obviously not deeded sales but perhaps they can come up with some creative form of a RTU contract that complies with Bahama law)?

I'm not sure there's a need to re-purpose Reef units, as it sounds like its sold-out, with just a few units unsold. HRA is similar in that they've recently shut-down the on-site sales center, and now just have a skeleton staff to sell the units they end up re-owning.

Another thing to keep in mind about the Reef, is usage of a unit there leads to a real cash payment to an owner for the usage of that unit. In the other towers at Atlantis, usage redeemed by loyalty/points can be taken out of a 'pools' of rooms that would have otherwise been vacant. Reef is real money.

YYJMSP · Jul 13, 2014

Westin5Star said:
It's situations like this that I wish Jarta would contribute :hysterical:

Is it wrong to say that I think I miss the guy?

okwiater · Jul 13, 2014

YYJMSP said:
Is it wrong to say that I think I miss the guy?

No, you're not alone. I appreciated his commentary, even if his delivery was a little rough around the edges.

Henry M. · Jul 13, 2014

I didn't realize jarta was banned. I never had a problem with him. I could see how he got under a couple of people's skin, but generally he wasn't too bad. He was just a counterpoint to all the Starwood corporate bashing that tends to happen on this site. I agree his delivery was sometimes a bit too confrontational, but I never saw anything worthy of a ban.

PamMo · Jul 14, 2014

okwiater said:
No, you're not alone. I appreciated his commentary, even if his delivery was a little rough around the edges.

Ditto here. I enjoyed reading Jarta's counter viewpoints and gained some valuable knowledge from his posts. I'd been wondering about him lately, and thought maybe he was on an extensive round-the-world trip and just too busy to post. (I didn't want to think he was ill.) That he was banned from TUG never even entered my mind. It was obvious he got under some people's skins, but I'm truly sorry he was banned.

tomandrobin · Jul 14, 2014

Wow.....Gonna join the party here.......I did not realized he was banned either. I like Jarta and his "different" perspective.

Westin5Star · Jul 15, 2014

I don't think he was banned for getting under skin, I believe that he repeatedly violated the rules of conduct. He presented a counter point of view that I don't miss much (other than these legal type items). Salty

SueDonJ · Oct 15, 2014

FYI, Marriott posted Atlantis info today; see Post #34 in this thread on the Marriott forum.

I know they cover all their bases so are purposefully vague about some things when they make these announcements, but this is sort of interesting - "Is Marriott Vacation Club taking over the timeshares on the Atlantis property? At this time, no, Harborside Resort will not become a Marriott Vacation Club property."

komosatp · Oct 16, 2014

SueDonJ said:
FYI, Marriott posted Atlantis info today; see Post #34 in this thread on the Marriott forum

I saw, in that thread, that you can't redeem points for stays at The Reef. Not surprising, when you consider:

komosatp said:
Another thing to keep in mind about the Reef, is usage of a unit there leads to a real cash payment to an owner for the usage of that unit. In the other towers at Atlantis, usage redeemed by loyalty/points can be taken out of a 'pools' of rooms that would have otherwise been vacant. Reef is real money.

Are there any units, elsewhere in the Marriott loyalty system, where units available with points are owned by individuals? I'm thinking anything like Cottages at The Greenbrier, that are owned by people but rented nightly like a hotel room through the resort.

komosatp · Oct 16, 2014

Changing the subject, back to the original news in this thread:

Judge Approves $110 Million Sale of Revel Casino to Brookfield

Oct. 7, 2014 - Atlantic City, N.J.’s Revel Casino will be sold to private-equity firm Brookfield Capital Partners LP for $110 million, a U.S. judge decided, rejecting Florida real-estate developer Glenn Straub ’s arguments he didn’t get a chance to top the bid.

Brookfield now owns Atlantis, the Hard Rock in Vegas, and the Revel. I don't know if there are long-term plans to hold or sell these properties, but they make a nice little portfolio of well-known high-end casino hotel brands, if one of the major hotel management companies wanted to build a foundation for a new division of hotels that included gaming.

RALnGA · Oct 22, 2014

Do you think Marriott will take over Harborside at some point?

While at Harborside last week I noticed where Atlantis was hosting a big event about Marriott joining Atlantis.Then Monday Marriott was advertising rooms at OUR 5 hotels ..Royal Towers,The Cove,Coral Towers ,Beach Towers and The Reef...
We were told Marriott paid Atlantis 300 million dollars...With that they will start building more slides ,pools and other attractions in a few years...
My question is how can two different Timeshare Resorts compete in the same market...Plus with Atlantis having new owners who's to say they don't sale their interest of Harborside to Marriott...
Just wondering what others think...

RAL

Ken555 · Oct 22, 2014

Do you think Marriott will take over Harborside at some point?

From what I understand, Marriott is simply managing the Atlantis hotels, not that there's a Marriott timeshare there. Marriott is much more than a timeshare company.

Sent from my iPad

YYJMSP · Oct 23, 2014

RALnGA said:
Then Monday Marriott was advertising rooms at OUR 5 hotels ..Royal Towers,The Cove,Coral Towers ,Beach Towers and The Reef...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Starwood has no ownership or management interest in those properties.

SVO just has Harbourside.

okwiater · Oct 23, 2014

YYJMSP said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Starwood has no ownership or management interest in those properties.

SVO just has Harbourside.

That's correct.

RALnGA · Oct 23, 2014

OUR =Marriott..Not Starwood
That was an ad from Marriott put out Monday...

DeniseM · Oct 24, 2014

Harborside and Atlantis have separate ownership, and management. Marriott is managing Atlantis as a hotel - not a timeshare.

Harborside is managed by Starwood, in theory, at the direction of the timeshare owners as represented by the Harborside board of directors.

RALnGA · Oct 24, 2014

Thank you all for the input and clarifying this for me ...

RAL

Wow! Marriott buys into Atlantis Resort! [split from other thread]

SMHarman

twinmommy19

komosatp

SueDonJ

Westin5Star

komosatp

SueDonJ

twinmommy19

komosatp

YYJMSP

okwiater

Henry M.

PamMo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

tomandrobin

Westin5Star

SueDonJ

komosatp

komosatp

RALnGA

Ken555

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

YYJMSP

okwiater

RALnGA

DeniseM

RALnGA