A Question: Am I stupid or is there another way of looking at timeshares?

ondeadlin said:

We vote with our dollars as consumers. When you support something with your business, you essentially approve of what they're doing. I couldn't stay at a GM property because I'd be supporting what are essentially fraudulent business practices. There are plenty of tremendous resorts out there that thrive without stealing thousands of dollars from ignorant vacationers.

If the best computers were made with child labor, or were made in North Korea, I wouldn't buy them. And even if GM is the best Mexican vacation resort, I'd never spend my dollars there because I'd know that my experience is at least partially built on the backs of people who were ripped off.

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To each his own. As I said many times, I would never buy a timeshare in Mexico. However, I would definitely exchange into the Grand Mayans as we have done for 10 weeks. Their sales methods are of no concern of mine as I never do sales presentations at any resorts.

mikenk said:

And that is the problem with the entire timeshare business model - which strangely was the original purpose of this thread. People are not going to willingly volunteer to give their money away to a developer of anything at a price higher than the real value - nor should they.

IMHO, it is up to the developer to create real value for a fair price. If they can't, then they should not be expanding. In my case, Grupo Vidanta (mayan) succeeded as I gave them additional cash for what I felt was a fair trade for the Luxxe luxury and the amenities. There is no way I should feel obligated to have done so.

I believe the Mayan resorts and their model should allow the company to do this routinely and successfully without resorting to their high pressure tactics - I'm frustrated as I think they continue to shoot themselves in their PR behinds when they really don't have to.

mike

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I agree with offering additional benefits other than the standard timeshare condo that doesn't appeal to us at all. However, how do they select a benefits package that appeals to the majority of people. I know you love the golf benefits but they are of no use to us nor most people. Maybe they could offer a menu of benefits and the buyer could choose from that list. That is what SFX does as a promotion to deposit your weeks. They offer a choice of 3 additional benefits from a list ( bonus weeks, exchange discounts, free travel insurance, etc. ) and you choose what you want.

sally13 said:

you can't be serious..(look for the made in america label??)is that a joke??

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Why single out WalMart. You will find the same "Made in China" tags at all stores, not just WalMart. My wife and I frequently shop at WalMart because they have better prices on name brand items than at other stores. it is simple as that. As a consumer, I am only interested in value for my dollar. Notice, I said "value", not price.

John Cummings said:

I agree with offering additional benefits other than the standard timeshare condo that doesn't appeal to us at all. However, how do they select a benefits package that appeals to the majority of people. I know you love the golf benefits but they are of no use to us nor most people. Maybe they could offer a menu of benefits and the buyer could choose from that list. That is what SFX does as a promotion to deposit your weeks. They offer a choice of 3 additional benefits from a list ( bonus weeks, exchange discounts, free travel insurance, etc. ) and you choose what you want.

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John,

I agree totally with your comments. I believe that timeshare companies need to start customizing vacation packages to give people consistent dream vacations at a fair price that they can't get by exchanging or renting. Grupo Mayan has done that for golfers. Realistically, giving us free golf costs them very little but gives us a lot.

But how about non golfers? For fishermen, companies could buy a few boats and offer free deep sea fishing trips with ownership; more fitness stuff; buy a bus and offer free tours; a fully funded dinner party once a week for just owners; etc. I believe there are all sorts of opportunities that would cost the companies little but offer tremendous value to owners. I think a menu of benefits would be great.

As you so often point out, I can't imagine why anyone, even for free, could justify buying a timeshare anywhere with forever maintenance fees when they can easily rent for about the cost of a maintenance fee. Something needs to change; depending on the uneducated consumer for survival does not seem to be a good business model.


Mike

Timeshare Exchange Guests Are Not 2nd Class Citz.

mikenk said:

But how about non golfers? For fishermen, companies could buy a few boats and offer free deep sea fishing trips with ownership; more fitness stuff; buy a bus and offer free tours; a fully funded dinner party once a week for just owners; etc. I believe there are all sorts of opportunities that would cost the companies little but offer tremendous value to owners.

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The trouble with owner-only benefits that shut out renters & exchangers is that they violate the concept of timeshare exchange -- as DVC & Manhattan Club reportedly already do by charging exchange guests fees that do not apply to owners & renters.

In timeshare exchange, I bank with a 3rd party exchange company (e.g., I-I, RCI, etc.) everything that I paid for & that I have coming to me in connection with a particular timeshare resort week -- everything.

When an exchange guest claims that deposited week via exchange company procedures, then that exchange guest should get everything that I paid for & all that I deposited for the exchange.

Shutting the exchange guest out of certain paid-for features (e.g., free golf, free weekly dinner, etc.) & making the exchange guest pay for things the owner already paid for via maintenance fees (e.g., DVC-style "transportation" charges) is a blatant & glaring violation of the exchange concept.

I can & do understand the timeshare companies' desire to find some way of adding value to full-freight purchases that can't be matched by resale timeshare ownership. Trouble is, the very nature of what they're selling -- deeded interval ownership that can be rented out, sold, bequeathed, exchanged -- is what blocks the companies from making 2d class citz. of resale owners. Any way you shake it, ownership is ownership. Deeds are deeds. RTUs are RTUs. There's no getting around it.

By contrast, I cannot understand why any timeshare company would want to degrade its value as a desirable resort destination. That makes no sense from any perspective, commercial or otherwise.

That specially goes for timeshare exchanges -- yours for mine, mine for yours, either of ours for somebody else's, etc. -- week for week & points-based mox nix.

The timeshare exchange guest is the timeshare owner's surrogate. If you as exchange guest are not getting everything I deposited -- the same as I would have received if I showed up at my own resort & checked in to use my own paid-for time myself -- everything, with no extra charges & no owner-only exclusions, then it's not really an exchange. It's something else entirely, & it's a pretty unattractive substitute for true timeshare exchange.

If more & more timeshares go that way, then word eventually will get out that timeshare exchanging is a raw deal for the exchange guests & then fewer people will be willing to participate. That's not necessarily bad for us timeshare owners -- I mean, we can always skip exchanging & just show up & check in at our own timeshare resorts ourselves -- but it's bad news for I-I & RCI & a potential drag on their bottom line.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Interesting points.

Currently, as a Grand Luxxe owner, I can rent my unit including all the golf and other amenities; great for me as renting to golfers will be quite easy and effective.

If I exchange, I have no clue whether the exchanger gets all the extra goodies but is an interesting question. The Grand Luxxe only exchanges through II.

Going the other way is a huge problem for many current Grand Luxxe owners as when we trade, we lose the goodies and realistically there is very little (if any) in the II inventory to match the Grand Luxxe property (even without the extras). This is not a big problem for us as we don't exchange.

As a result, people in the grand mayan system that have upgraded from the grand mayan to the Grand Luxxe are worse off from an exchange perspective. Lots of complaints from owners on this; we are told the Grupo mayan is working on a solution.

The bottom line, to your point, is that adding extra goodies does cause all kind of issues in the exchange end. From my viewpoint, if I exchange a luxury week with free golf, free massages included, I should get equal in return - probably needs to be a point system of some sort

mike

the reason..

I pick on Walmart is because it was WALMART that was the forerunner of the (buy products from overseas child/slave labor) business model..They did this in a gigantic way...setting the standard for the rest of the U.S. department stores to follow suit or die..Now we have this mess..the U.S. manufacturing base cut to the bone..no jobs..no real solid future for our kids..Did you know that after ww 2...the U.S. manufactured half of the worlds goods??..THAT is what made this country thrive..now we have only a strong military and are losing our coveted (worlds reserve currency) status..If you don't follow me here ..do some research into this topic..it is very scary to think..Walmart first built its customer base on the premis of (we sell only american made products)..now it might sell 8% or less...it has devastated small town america ..costing millions of good paying manufacturing jobs nation wide..it replaces these stolen jobs with a tiny number of low paying thankless clerk positions..:..this is why old sam walton is restless in his grave ..they turned his (good for America)store and business model into the perverted ,nation destroying thing you call WALMART.. ( .back to timeshare... oh Mike....I do know of an (admirals club)put out by the sunset group that sells resort weeks with a 2 day mega$$$ yaht cruise(as a perk)you and your family have full control of the boat and crew!! pricey..not to be found on Ebay...

sorry..

did not intend to end this great thread with a walmart rant..someone did ask..and I tell it like I see it...

AwayWeGo said:

The trouble with owner-only benefits that shut out renters & exchangers is that they violate the concept of timeshare exchange -- as DVC & Manhattan Club reportedly already do by charging exchange guests fees that do not apply to owners & renters.

In timeshare exchange, I bank with a 3rd party exchange company (e.g., I-I, RCI, etc.) everything that I paid for & that I have coming to me in connection with a particular timeshare resort week -- everything.

When an exchange guest claims that deposited week via exchange company procedures, then that exchange guest should get everything that I paid for & all that I deposited for the exchange.

Shutting the exchange guest out of certain paid-for features (e.g., free golf, free weekly dinner, etc.) & making the exchange guest pay for things the owner already paid for via maintenance fees (e.g., DVC-style "transportation" charges) is a blatant & glaring violation of the exchange concept.

I can & do understand the timeshare companies' desire to find some way of adding value to full-freight purchases that can't be matched by resale timeshare ownership. Trouble is, the very nature of what they're selling -- deeded interval ownership that can be rented out, sold, bequeathed, exchanged -- is what blocks the companies from making 2d class citz. of resale owners. Any way you shake it, ownership is ownership. Deeds are deeds. RTUs are RTUs. There's no getting around it.

By contrast, I cannot understand why any timeshare company would want to degrade its value as a desirable resort destination. That makes no sense from any perspective, commercial or otherwise.

That specially goes for timeshare exchanges -- yours for mine, mine for yours, either of ours for somebody else's, etc. -- week for week & points-based mox nix.

The timeshare exchange guest is the timeshare owner's surrogate. If you as exchange guest are not getting everything I deposited -- the same as I would have received if I showed up at my own resort & checked in to use my own paid-for time myself -- everything, with no extra charges & no owner-only exclusions, then it's not really an exchange. It's something else entirely, & it's a pretty unattractive substitute for true timeshare exchange.

If more & more timeshares go that way, then word eventually will get out that timeshare exchanging is a raw deal for the exchange guests & then fewer people will be willing to participate. That's not necessarily bad for us timeshare owners -- I mean, we can always skip exchanging & just show up & check in at our own timeshare resorts ourselves -- but it's bad news for I-I & RCI & a potential drag on their bottom line.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

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Owners benefits vs exchangers have existed for many years in one form or another. HGVC West 57th Street, NYC owners receive free breakfast every morning whereas exchangers have to pay $25 for it. RCI exchangers cannot get oceanfront units at several resorts, etc.. There have never been any guarantees regarding exchanging.

BTW, I did NOT have to pay any fees at all at the Manhattan Club in NYC and I was an exchanger through SFX.

Alan...

do you not think that (rci) and (ii) are too crowded and oversold at this point in time? ..I would love to see a spread sheet for prime summer/holiday week demand...I mean people who try to get a decent trade..but sadly have to take that 1 b-room rundown unit just because thats all thats left and thier vacation time is not variable..

Way Above My Pay Grade.

sally13 said:

do you not think that (rci) and (ii) are too crowded and oversold at this point in time? ..I would love to see a spread sheet for prime summer/holiday week demand...I mean people who try to get a decent trade..but sadly have to take that 1 b-room rundown unit just because thats all thats left and thier vacation time is not variable..

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I know little about RCI & less -- i.e., nothing -- about I-I.

Despite lacking a foundation of factual knowledge, however, I have formed opinions -- mainly, that depending on I-I & RCI puts timeshare owners at a disadvantage, specially in view of the relatively few summer & holiday timeshare weeks available, contrasted with the relatively large number of owners of non-summer & non-holiday timeshare weeks looking to exchange their off-season dogs & cats for prime weeks in prime resorts.

Our preferred Florida timeshare vacation times, as it happens, turned out to be off-season for that part of the country, meaning that we've been able to get good or excellent or superior timeshare reservations via Last Call & Instant Exchange exclusively since 2005 or so.

That reinforces my belief that timeshare vacationing works out best for people who do their vacation planning way in advance on the 1 hand, and at the last minute on the other hand.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

sally13 said:

do you not think that (rci) and (ii) are too crowded and oversold at this point in time? ..I would love to see a spread sheet for prime summer/holiday week demand...I mean people who try to get a decent trade..but sadly have to take that 1 b-room rundown unit just because thats all thats left and thier vacation time is not variable..

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How can RCI or II be oversold and crowded - they do not own or run the resorts. They are the mechanism by which we trade our timeshares. RCI is presently offline, upgrading their comuter systems to handle what looks to be major changes to their exchange model. If this model is what some of us think it will be, it should relieve some of the stress of looking for those high demand weeks.

The reason those peak weeks are not available is because RCI has allowed a little too much play in terms of like-for-like. Those who own off-peak should not expect to get a peak week every year, but that is the expectation that has been built. While some have seen what amounts to a reduction in their trade value recently (and also back in May of 2009), it may provide some much-needed stability to the system. While owners of all weeks pay the same maintenance fee at many resorts, we often forget just how much more somebody paid for those peak weeks - either for the benefit of using those weeks, or for the benefit of better trade power. While I'm sure the sales staff at many resorts will try to paint their own resorts as better than others, it should now be clear which weeks are red hot, and which are mild pink, and maybe those who own pink weeks will understand they are not entitled to a red-hot 2BR unit every year.

yes MEL ..yes

you get it!!! thats my gripe..rci has several thousands joining weekly..and the competition for those favorable weeks is brutal..thats why we found great resorts and rarely trade these days..it is all those points resort systems ..me thinks