VSE Owner Survey

Bob808 · Sep 23, 2016

DeniseM said:
For the purpose of clarity, I would just use the word "Vistana" to describe the timeshare management company, because Starwood has been gone for 4 mos. They no longer have any affiliation with Vistana timeshare management.

The resale situation that Vistana is in, is universal across the timeshare industry - this is not a Vistana issue.

In fact, Vistana, Marriott, Hilton, and Hyatt retain their value better than most other timeshares, so they are in slightly better shape.

This is exactly why we discourage people from buying from the developer - they inflate the price far above any realistic value.

To Denise and so many Tuggers:
I previously staunchly defended buying from Starwood citing benefits of developer purchasing what previously were Starwood properties. Post sale of SVO to Vistana and apparently the loss of benefits I enjoyed as 5 STAR ELITE you now appear to have all been wiser than me.
You were right. I was foolish, short-sighted and wrong. I made a bad investment. Resale purchasers have saved a lot of money, however with the reconfiguration I don't believe any owners are winners. The scorecard shows developer purchasers are the biggest losers.

Scott&Laura · Sep 23, 2016

Denise

I neither offered nor mentioned any ----THEORY!

I merely proffered a thought or a wonderment --if you will --and merely pondered and suggested a WHAT if OWNERS moment as if owners collectively took ownership of the property we owned collectively to redress inadequacies our collectively agreed upon management provides. got together

Sorry for expressing my thoughts

Scott

DeniseM · Sep 23, 2016

Bob808 said:
To Denise and so many Tuggers:
I previously staunchly defended buying from Starwood citing benefits of developer purchasing what previously were Starwood properties. Post sale of SVO to Vistana and apparently the loss of benefits I enjoyed as 5 STAR ELITE you now appear to have all been wiser than me.
You were right. I was foolish, short-sighted and wrong. I made a bad investment. Resale purchasers have saved a lot of money, however with the reconfiguration I don't believe any owners are winners. The scorecard shows developer purchasers are the biggest losers.

As far as I know, you still have the same Elite benefits - is there anything specific that you are referring to?

DeniseM · Sep 23, 2016

Scott&Laura said:
Denise

I neither offered nor mentioned any ----THEORY!

I merely proffered a thought or a wonderment --if you will --and merely pondered and suggested a WHAT if OWNERS moment as if owners collectively took ownership of the property we owned collectively to redress inadequacies our collectively agreed upon management provides. got together

Sorry for expressing my thoughts

Scott

I know you are disappointed in this news - but I'm just the messenger... :hi:

Scott&Laura · Sep 23, 2016

Sorry

Denise

I neither offered nor mentioned any ----THEORY!

I merely proffered a thought or a wonderment --if you will --and merely pondered and suggested a WHAT if MOMENT AS IF OWNERS COLLECTIVELY UNIFIED and took ownership of the property we owned collectively to redress inadequacies our collectively agreed upon management provider fails at.

A million dollars Denise if you take 52 weeks and multiply by 300 units is about a $ 0.18 cent increase to maintenance fees per week if bought at $1000 plus maintenance fees. How did you come up with your Million dollar figure???? A owner group does not have to buy every unit---just enough to control prices as DeBeers Diamonds does.

Initially it would be a cost expensive proposition but in long run would save thousands per owner. If that wasn't the case then explain to me WHY ON EARTH VISTANA does everything they can to resell the properties and explain to financial investors in their quarterlies year after year and openly express the profitability they make off reselling property they buy back from owners..

At no time did I imply convey or give impression that we were forced to do this--I merely expressed a thought what if a significant number of owners coalesced and unified to capture the huge lost amount of revenue. You made it clear in your email why its impossible and why Vistana will continue to buy 5 cents on the dollar

Sorry for expressing my thoughts

Scott

DeniseM · Sep 23, 2016

If that wasn't the case then explain to me WHY ON EARTH VISTANA does everything they can to resell the properties and explain to financial investors in their quarterlies year after year and openly express the profitability they make off reselling property they buy back from owners..

They don't: They cherry pick the prime units at the top resorts (the few where they have ROFR) that they can flip quickly, and ignore all the timeshares selling for $1 - they don't want them. In fact, they won't even take them back for free...

The only ones that Vistana, and Starwood before them, took back are 1) foreclosures, and 2) units that owners turned in to requalify, or to use as a trade-in.

jabberwocky · Sep 23, 2016

Scott&Laura said:
Sorry

A million dollars Denise if you take 52 weeks and multiply by 300 units is about a $ 0.18 cent increase to maintenance fees per week if bought at $1000 plus maintenance fees. How did you come up with your Million dollar figure???? A owner group does not have to buy every unit---just enough to control prices as DeBeers Diamonds does.

Initially it would be a cost expensive proposition but in long run would save thousands per owner. If that wasn't the case then explain to me WHY ON EARTH VISTANA does everything they can to resell the properties and explain to financial investors in their quarterlies year after year and openly express the profitability they make off reselling property they buy back from owners..

If economic history has taught us anything it is that trying to corner a market rarely works - supply is never really fixed in the long-run and even less so in the timeshare market where you have ample competition and the ability to build new supply in many markets (think Orlando and Las Vegas).

DeBeers is actually a good counter-example of what you are arguing for as they have pretty much lost most of their market power and now supply a much smaller portion of the diamond market (they essentially tried to also control the retail distribution which killed them), I can also point to the Hunt brothers in 1980 (silver market), OPEC etc. It might seem like a good idea to "increase" the value of our timeshares, but I can guarantee 100% failure. And this is all before you get to the fact that you're wanting to engage in illegal anti-trust behavior. :shrug:

Scott&Laura · Sep 24, 2016

Jabberwocky

You succinctly made my point.

Debeers is losing market-share to those who have thought outside the box. DeBeers controlled the market as long as the market was perceived as defined in one way--- as a simple Supply Demand issue

The Hunts in the 1980's tried to control the market through manipulating a parochial view of the marketplace---it blew up in their face. Timeshares should be viewed in the same way.

Vistana has a fixed view of the market and TUGG timeshare owners consistently express a static reality as to how the marketplace exists. I merely expressed a wonderment of thinking beyond what one perceives to be the factual reality that exists and too look beyond and think of other realities. I was trained in the sciences and was trained to think beyond known possibilities.

I have been responded to by those who imply the market is a fixed proposition and should only be addressed in a way consistent to filtered through their own eyes and perceptions and concomitant with their own preconceived ideas. I merely implied as a subtle suggestion to think outside the box to solve the problems we all are confronted with. Think abstractly not linearly.

I feel from my years in business that the market has a mixed multitude of variables, issues, dynamics and is always in a state if flux.

Their are two ways to address the issue and glean understanding---assign it to a fixed box of preconceived understandings or secondly look at the dynamics and learn and try to understand what is driving and creating them. A survey that dismisses data is useless. An approach that looks at things through filtered eyes of ones own understanding is also useless. Only looking at things through different scenarios or through alternative scenarios will help in the future.

I merely suggest think beyond the defined perceptions and look to possibilities.

Scott

bizaro86 · Sep 24, 2016

Scott&Laura said:
Jabberwocky

You succinctly made my point.

Debeers is losing market-share to those who have thought outside the box. DeBeers controlled the market as long as the market was perceived as defined in one way--- as a simple Supply Demand issue

The Hunts in the 1980's tried to control the market through manipulating a parochial view of the marketplace---it blew up in their face. Timeshares should be viewed in the same way.

Vistana has a fixed view of the market and TUGG timeshare owners consistently express a static reality as to how the marketplace exists. I merely expressed a wonderment of thinking beyond what one perceives to be the factual reality that exists and too look beyond and think of other realities. I was trained in the sciences and was trained to think beyond known possibilities.

I have been responded to by those who imply the market is a fixed proposition and should only be addressed in a way consistent to filtered through their own eyes and perceptions and concomitant with their own preconceived ideas. I merely implied as a subtle suggestion to think outside the box to solve the problems we all are confronted with. Think abstractly not linearly.

I feel from my years in business that the market has a mixed multitude of variables, issues, dynamics and is always in a state if flux.

Their are two ways to address the issue and glean understanding---assign it to a fixed box of preconceived understandings or secondly look at the dynamics and learn and try to understand what is driving and creating them. A survey that dismisses data is useless. An approach that looks at things through filtered eyes of ones own understanding is also useless. Only looking at things through different scenarios or through alternative scenarios will help in the future.

I merely suggest think beyond the defined perceptions and look to possibilities.

Scott

The HOA boards will never go for your idea, as they are controlled by Vistana. If you want to fire them and hire someone different (which would almost certainly be cheaper, as they make hundreds of dollars in profit per interval) you would need to get enough units to give you control of the board.

It will never happen in any of the resorts where the Sheraton trust owns units, but maybe one of the Westins would be possible. I think WSJ VGV has actual owner representation on the board.

Scott&Laura · Oct 1, 2016

I agree with Bizaro86

I purchased Westin Maui and declined Sheraton

Tugg years ago put forward board members who Tugg members did not get behind. I believe it was because it was late in the game

I think finding someone and getting behind them may help. Sheraton trust does not mean they control the board--they have rights to control board when others refrain from getting behind others. Just as at Maui

We need to find and get behind willing people and it may take two years

The board is made up of proxy votes when people --who I am guilty of--acquiesce I don't know an alternative to vote for

Lets get willing alternatives established so we don't rubber stamp proxy

Scott

DavidnRobin · Oct 1, 2016

Scott&Laura said:
Tugg years ago put forward board members who Tugg members did not get behind. I believe it was because it was late in the game

what????
if you are talking about WKORV - that had nothing to do with TUG members not being behind them - it has to do with something that is overlooked in the above speculations.

VSE/SVO TUG readers represent <1% of WKORV owners - and that is being generous.
VSE/SVO controls the HOAs; most owners do not care or care to know (I know a few...)
We were successful in getting 2 non-SVO/VSE members on VGV HOA BOD. See WSJ thead Part 1.

DeniseM · Oct 2, 2016

Scott&Laura said:
Tugg years ago put forward board members who Tugg members did not get behind. I believe it was because it was late in the game

This is incorrect - TUG members absolutely did get behind them - however as David said, Tuggers make up only a tiny percentage of all owners. How do you propose to contact and organize the other 99%?

Sheraton trust does not mean they control the board--they have rights to control board when others refrain from getting behind others.

What is the "Sheraton Trust"?

What do you mean they have the "right" to control the board?

bizaro86 · Oct 2, 2016

Scott&Laura said:
I agree with Bizaro86

I purchased Westin Maui and declined Sheraton

Tugg years ago put forward board members who Tugg members did not get behind. I believe it was because it was late in the game

I think finding someone and getting behind them may help. Sheraton trust does not mean they control the board--they have rights to control board when others refrain from getting behind others. Just as at Maui

We need to find and get behind willing people and it may take two years

The board is made up of proxy votes when people --who I am guilty of--acquiesce I don't know an alternative to vote for

Lets get willing alternatives established so we don't rubber stamp proxy

Scott

Actually, I think the Sheraton Flexoptions trust does mean that VSE will always control those resorts, since the trust can vote all those intervals however VSE wants them voted.

So an owner group starts way behind, as well as having to overcome apathy and figure out how to contact enough owners.

DeniseM · Oct 3, 2016

By Sheraton Trust, I believe you are referring to the resorts in the Sheraton Flexoption program - but this is only a few resorts, so how does this apply to all the other resorts?

VSE Owner Survey

Bob808

Scott&Laura

DeniseM

DeniseM

Scott&Laura

DeniseM

jabberwocky

TUG Review Crew

Scott&Laura

bizaro86

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

Scott&Laura

DavidnRobin

DeniseM

bizaro86

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

DeniseM