Definitive (I believe) answers to some important points program questions

davidvel- I think you misunderstood my point. Heretofore, there were only the total number of owners that equaled the total number of reservations in a given season who can call in to reserve.

In the new system, points are being sold with the buyer having the expectation of being able to trade into even sold out seasons. So, there are likely to be some weeks at many properties in high demand where there are now a higher total of people calling in to reserve the week than there were before, so there will be increased competition.

You are right, Marriott cannot fill a point owner's reservation request unless they have control of those weeks, either from developer inventory or week owner's conversions to points for that year. However, for any season they have a percentage of point weeks and week weeks. Are they going to apportion them for the season or for each reservation week? If for the season, then all those extra point users vying for reservations can get a lion's share of the summer or other high demand weeks, and still have the same percentage of weeks for the season going to each group. Marriott hasn't stated how those inventory buckets will be divided- by season or by week/reservation period. In my opinion, that's a big issue, esp. for owners of resorts where there are certain weeks in the season that are very high demand.

I understand the argument that the point cost distribution is intended to equalize demand across the board, but regardless of the increased point cost, there are still many owners who must travel and will pay the heightened point cost over school vacations. Hotel rates are higher, airfare often double, cruise rates close to double during some school breaks, because people will pay it. With a whole new pool of owners looking to exchange into premium properties (and, let's face it, Marriott can now sell summer dessert weeks or other off season weeks for their point value, with the "promise" of easy reservations in many of the same resorts where owners already have difficulty making the reservations they want.

m61376 said:

davidvel- I think you misunderstood my point. Heretofore, there were only the total number of owners that equaled the total number of reservations in a given season who can call in to reserve.

In the new system, points are being sold with the buyer having the expectation of being able to trade into even sold out seasons. So, there are likely to be some weeks at many properties in high demand where there are now a higher total of people calling in to reserve the week than there were before, so there will be increased competition.

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I am slow, but I think I now get what you are saying: Essentially, there previously would be no more people calling in (or on the website) than the total number of people with unreserved weeks in a season at the time. Now, there could be 2, 3, 4x that many people calling in (even though they can't all get weeks because there aren't enough deeds controlled by Marriott.)

So the concern is that they will have an "unfair advantage," as they are sort of like reservation bots for points users, like the ticket scalpers who get 1000 people in a room to call ticketmaster for a limited amount of tickets (or that website that used to guarantee you an "A" boarding pass on Southwest); the scalpers end up with a high percentage. (light bulb now on.)

So although it seems it is first come first served as to each deed holder, the brute force of the number of people calling in (points users) which far exceeds the available points deeds (and "our" deeds) will result in points users getting a higher % of that week as compared to us people that only have the phone line.

Now I have to think about somehting else

I guess we'll have to retain one of those india phone banks to call in simultaneously then transfer the call to us .

Then again, is anyone who bought points in this hope and a prayer system based upon a salesperson's pitch that they can go anywhere, any time really going to be able to figure all this out and call at 7am? Not a chance.:ignore:

Dave,

Thanks for clarifying the online access issue. I was not getting a straight answer and this is our main concern since we use that for last minute trades with our one silver unit.

Have you been able to determine if we will have to keep a separate account or will the annual fee cover that in the new II account?

Thanks again,

Norma

m61376 said:

davidvel- I think you misunderstood my point. Heretofore, there were only the total number of owners that equaled the total number of reservations in a given season who can call in to reserve.

In the new system, points are being sold with the buyer having the expectation of being able to trade into even sold out seasons. So, there are likely to be some weeks at many properties in high demand where there are now a higher total of people calling in to reserve the week than there were before, so there will be increased competition.

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davidvel said:

I am slow, but I think I now get what you are saying: Essentially, there previously would be no more people calling in (or on the website) than the total number of people with unreserved weeks in a season at the time. Now, there could be 2, 3, 4x that many people calling in (even though they can't all get weeks because there aren't enough deeds controlled by Marriott.)

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Davidvel - here is a link from a post I posted yesterday discussing the same issue. I hope it helps clarify.

normab said:

Dave,

Thanks for clarifying the online access issue. I was not getting a straight answer and this is our main concern since we use that for last minute trades with our one silver unit.

Have you been able to determine if we will have to keep a separate account or will the annual fee cover that in the new II account?

Thanks again,

Norma

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The Club II acct. will cover all your Marriotts. Any Marriott trades, whether points or weeks, will be covered. If you trade externally, you can still do that within the club account, but will have to pay the II fee for the exchange.

You will only need a second II account if you have non-Marriott resorts.

davidvel said:

Then again, is anyone who bought points in this hope and a prayer system based upon a salesperson's pitch that they can go anywhere, any time really going to be able to figure all this out and call at 7am? Not a chance.:ignore:

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Well, since you're on the West coast, they will be at a distinct disadvantage if they call at 7AM PST :hysterical:

Seriously, though, I agree- new point buyers are going to casually call in for their reservation the first time, then likely to call there VOA who will nicely inform them that, well, it may be a "little" hard to get those prime vacation weeks. I'm venturing to guess that the learning curve will be short enough for enough people- after all, they'll have just spent some big bucks here- that there will likely be a lot more callers. Don't forget, some of those callers will be current owners converting to points to make an internal trade, so there will already be a pool of savvy owners vying for those premium spots.

Marriott will fairly allocate inventory for reservations

There has been a lot of concern over how Marriott will allocate inventory and whether each pool of inventory would be a percentage of the season or of each week in the season.

I have received a definitive response on good authority that Marriott intends to fairly distribute inventory from each pool evenly across the season, so that if 20% of the ownership is points (whether Marriott owned inventory, weeks turned in for reward points or week owners converting to points that year) and 80% weeks, Marriott will follow that same distribution for reserving every week in the season, such that point owners will not be able to monopolize reservations during peak periods.

I think this is a very big reassurance that week ownership will not be adversely impacted, at least wrt making reservations at one's home resort. We will still be competing with other owners for the percentage of villas that correlates with week ownership.

we have always used the online calender to reserve - hope this can still be used for our weeks at our home resort

Like this feature of marriott TS very much, also have a Starwood Westin and this requires an early call

m61376 said:

I think that the biggest issue remains unanswered- whether or not the pro rata distribution of weeks/point will be based on the overall season or per week/reservation period equally. If it is per season I think it is a huge deal and really undermines Marriott's continued contention that if you use your weeks as they are nothing changes. It would be a significant impact on increased competition for peak weeks both from new point owners wanting to reserve at what may have even been sold out properties/seasons and week owners using points for that year to trade in, now having equal preference as home resort owners. Furthermore, although the issue has received little attention, the ability to rent point reservations opens up another can of worms- while potentially a nice feature for some owners, at resorts where the point allocation was significantly undervalued in comparison to rental rates, owners now have the right to reserve elsewhere in order to rent. So for those properties that were allocated less points than properties that rent for half or close to half the amount, there will likely be increased competition from savvy point owners trying to reserve those high demand weeks to rent as well as to use.

Hopefully Marriott will do the right thing by its owners and limit the percentage available to each pool evenly per week and not per season.

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I think your hope is misplaced. I will use an example from Newport Coast Villas (NCV) to highlight what I believe Marriott will do.

My uncle owns a platinum season week at NCV. He bought there because he enjoys golfing at the nearby Pelican Hill Golf Course. He would call 12 months in advance (to the day, at 6am when phones opened up) hoping to reserve prime summer weeks. He was told that no inventory was available. This scenario happened on repeated occasions when attempting to reserve different prime summer weeks. After many failed attempts, he went to marriott.com and discovered to his surprise that he could rent that same prime week at NCV for cash.

Finally he complained to his MVCI rep who gave him a very honest explanation. He was told that the inventory on marriott.com represented the unsold weeks that Marriott owns. Furthermore, he was told this problem would continue until NCV was sold out. Only then would owners would have access to all the weeks in their season. My uncle has now lost patience with the manipulations and has decided to dump his NCV week.

So you see, when a week comes under Marriott's control they are not shy about claiming the very best weeks in a season because they are naturally the most lucrative for Marriott.

I fully expect that Marriott will do the same thing with this new points system. Whenever an owner deposits a week (in exchange for MRP or Club Points), Marriott will claim the the very best prime weeks in that season. But the situation will be even worse than many assume. Marriott will not make those prime weeks available to either weeks owners OR points owners - rather Marriott will rent those prime weeks for cash and keep the revenue for themselves. Everybody loses (except Marriott of course). They've already been doing it at NCV, so why would you expect otherwise under this points program?

--Deleted post--

m61376 said:

There has been a lot of concern over how Marriott will allocate inventory and whether each pool of inventory would be a percentage of the season or of each week in the season. I have received a definitive response on good authority that Marriott intends to fairly distribute inventory from each pool evenly across the season.

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I would like to believe your information to be correct, but the example I just posted about Newport Coast Villas makes me very skeptical. If you have the opportunity, please ask your "good authority at Marriott" about what has been going on at Newport Coast Villas.

gblotter said:

I would like to believe your information to be correct, but the example I just posted about Newport Coast Villas makes be very skeptical. If you have the opportunity, please ask your "good authority at Marriott" about what has been going on at Newport Coast Villas.

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What probably happened is that your uncle depended on old technology (phone) when he shoudl have used the computer. The people who have the best luck getting prime weeks in the system are logged into their Marriott account prior to 6am and ready to go. This eliminates the need for the person on the phone to validate your account, name, phone number,etc. Then, at the very second that the clock ticks over to 6am, they are starting the reservation process. So, they might be gone within 1-2 minutes which might be before your uncle gets them on the phone.

Anyone who still calls Ticketmaster gets crappy seats. That is the reality. Only the Internet customers get the best seats because they are pulling from the pile first. I am not sure how many NCV units there are, but there are 52 times that many intervals. So, that means 52 owners competing for each unit on 4th of July. Maybe some owners don't try, but there are probably 15 owners trying for each unit. They can't all get them. That is just the way it works.

m61376 said:

I think this is a very big reassurance that week ownership will not be adversely impacted, at least wrt making reservations at one's home resort. We will still be competing with other owners for the percentage of villas that correlates with week ownership.

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Personal note to m61376: In all these posts over the last 2 weeks, it seems like a few of us (you, me, hipslo, etc) have focused on this central issue of how inventory will be allocated between legacy owners and points owners. If your "good authority" turns out to be correct and my NCV example turns out to be non-representative, that will indeed be a relief. I'm grateful for the work you have done to research this point and pass information back to the tug community.

gblotter said:

I would like to believe your information to be correct, but the example I just posted about Newport Coast Villas makes be very skeptical. If you have the opportunity, please ask your "good authority at Marriott" about what has been going on at Newport Coast Villas.

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I think your insinuation is that Marriott is inappropriately reserving the best weeks. We really don't know that is accurate and I doubt it to be the case. They should, and I believe are, reserving as any other owner is. The issue though is that for multiple weeks up to 50% of the inventory can be reserved at 13 months out. All the high demand resorts that I am aware of have issues at the 12 month window. Maui is the poster child for such a situation. Marriott is a multiple week owner.

I could stay tonight at NCV, for 399.00. Same next week, and the week after that. 7 day stays are a bit problematical, but, hey, it's July

When I went to book 2011 this morning (BTW, what's up with forcing the earliest booking day back one day?), as I expected, and contrary to the last three years, no joy. That's OK, Marriott and I have a long history together. It always works out...

I am not sure how many NCV units there are, but there are 52 times that many intervals. So, that means 52 owners competing for each unit on 4th of July.

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It's a big resort and fully built out now (just recently). 700 villas x 52 weeks = 36,400 usage periods. July 4 is no competition. It's a fixed week (Platinum Plus). Otherwise, it's owners from June through December disemboweling each other for prime summer weeks. One of those owners now is Marriott, who happens to also run the reservation system and is a big landlord too. Of course, their ownership is in trust. Very appropriate

gblotter said:

Personal note to m61376: In all these posts over the last 2 weeks, it seems like a few of us (you, me, hipslo, etc) have focused on this central issue of how inventory will be allocated between legacy owners and points owners. If your "good authority" turns out to be correct and my NCV example turns out to be non-representative, that will indeed be a relief. I'm grateful for the work you have done to research this point and pass information back to the tug community.

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I can tell you this was a big issue to me and I was talking with someone well placed, and he had actually told me this last week but was 99% sure at that point and asked me not to post anything until he fully verified it. Trust me when I say that I didn't leave the question open to misinterpretation, and literally presented something akin to if there were 10 villas in a resort and 20% of the total weeks was in the points inventory, then 1 villa per week would be released at 13 months and 1 at 12 months for point reservations, and 4 at 13 months for week reservations and 4 at 12 months for each week in the season. He assured me that point owners would not get a larger percentage of certain premium weeks and a smaller percentage of others, which was the concern several of us had.

While I have not agreed with everything he has said (like the way points were allocated) he has been nothing but honest and forthright and I do believe, at least at this point in time, that that's Marriott's policy. And I am a bit sanguine about this program, so it says a lot that at least that's something I'm comfortable with.

Another point of interest that I clarified was the issue of points expiration. The weeks or days reserved with the points must be used prior to the expiration date. There is no policy, like in II, that if you cancel you get a replacement week for a year, even if your original week would have expired. If you cancel points over 60 days they go into your regular account and less than 60 days into the holding account, but they expire at their regular expiration date. They don't want to allow people to keep on cycling points.

I know in another post a salesman and then the GM confirmed that Premier Plus and Premier owners would be given priority in villa assignments over week owners using their home resort. I was told quite definitively that this was not the case and there was a bit of surprise that a GM was saying that.

Another query that someone had posted that I discussed was what weeks in II could be accessed by an enrolled week trader. Basically, if you trade weeks you have access to the same inventory whether you are enrolled or not enrolled. Only points owners and users have access to the Marriott inventory, enrolled weeks owner deposits to points, and weeks owners traded in for reward points. See post #149 below for clarification

I also clarified that enrolled owners can use points acquired from other sources in a given year even if not converting their weeks to points that year (they can borrow from friends, or rent points from strangers- as long as the point rental is not a commercial venture).

camachinist said:

I could stay tonight at NCV, for 399.00. Same next week, and the week after that. 7 day stays are a bit problematical, but, hey, it's July

When I went to book 2011 this morning (BTW, what's up with forcing the earliest booking day back one day?), as I expected, and contrary to the last three years, no joy. That's OK, Marriott and I have a long history together. It always works out...

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Shouldn't you have been booking yesterday morning, or am I missing something?

m61376 said:

I can tell you this was a big issue to me and I was talking with someone well placed, and he had actually told me this last week but was 99% sure at that point and asked me not to post anything until he fully verified it. Trust me when I say that I didn't leave the question open to misinterpretation, and literally presented something akin to if there were 10 villas in a resort and 20% of the total weeks was in the points inventory, then 1 villa per week would be released at 13 months and 1 at 12 months for point reservations, and 4 at 13 months for week reservations and 4 at 12 months for each week in the season. He assured me that point owners would not get a larger percentage of certain premium weeks and a smaller percentage of others, which was the concern several of us had.

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This is good to hear and hopefully will be borne out in practice. Thanks for being so persistent in your search for an answer on this point.

m61376 said:

Shouldn't you have been booking yesterday morning, or am I missing something?

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Yes, I should have been, and attempted to, even though the inventory release calendar told me today was the day. No joy on either day.

When I saw the dates on the calendar, I thought either I had a brain aneurysm or, gasp, something had changed. Then I thought of all those Gift of Time e-mails and wondered if Marriott had so much time to sell they had to move the reservation day up one. Then, I thought that I had missed a leap year or something. Then I realized, ta da, that it was an enhancement to align with the rollout of DC.

Here's a screenshot

I'm sure there's a reasonable answer, since it appears no one else is asking the question. I looked around and couldn't find it, so figured I'd ask here

I found the answer and it was right in the screenshot. Dummy me, I thought, since the calendar was in my account, it applied to me. Nuh-uh.... Just look at the title above the check-in date calendar... It says "Calendar for Vacation Club Points Owners and Enrolled Owners". Slap me in the face, I'm neither of those. Someone get that thing outta my account...

Pat -

I believe the screen shot is only for those reserving with points. For enrolled owners, as well as for points purchasers, it's for those who elect to use points to reserve their weeks.

For both enrolled owners and non-enrolled owners, the one-year rule for reserving a week the old fashioned way should still exist, meaning that yesterday should have been your call-in day.

LOL, Thanks Dave; it looks like we've been posting at the same time

Got it figured now. I hit it yesterday just to be sure but now can sleep in on Fridays

So, this apparent one day head start thing, is this something everyone is aware of, that traditional weeks owners get a one day head start over enrolled and points owners, at least at the 'seven nights or more level'? Interesting.......so, equal competition for direct owner resort reservations but a day delay for 'reservations' being requested through the internal exchange DCP system

m61376 said:

Another query that someone had posted that I discussed was what weeks in II could be accessed by an enrolled week trader. Basically, if you trade weeks you have access to the same inventory whether you are enrolled or not enrolled. Only points owners and users have access to the Marriott inventory, enrolled weeks owner deposits, and weeks owners traded in for reward points.

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This sound important.

So if I own at NCV and enroll and then deposit my reserved July week in II as a week, only people who use II with points can access that week? Meaning other people who are enrolled in points but trade weeks will not have access to that week either (you saw weeks traders inside or out see the same things)?

So unless you use II with points, the weeks available to you will shrink, no matter what?

That what it sounds like to me, but if I misunderstand please clarify.

We may have hit on the key on how the enrooled weeks who join for the II savings will eventually be forced to use points after all. And so will the ones who haven't enrolled...

DanCali said:

This sound important.

So if I own at NCV and enroll and then deposit my reserved July week in II as a week, only people who use II with points can access that week? Meaning other people who are enrolled in points but trade weeks will not have access to that week either (you saw weeks traders inside or out see the same things)?

So unless you use II with points, the weeks available to you will shrink, no matter what?

That what it sounds like to me, but if I misunderstand please clarify.

We may have hit on the key on how the enrooled weeks who join for the II savings will eventually be forced to use points after all. And so will the ones who haven't enrolled...

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This is significant......If I'm understanding this correctly, the point pool will contain the weeks deposited into II by enrolled owners, point owners, and weeks traded for MRP........The weeks pool will only contain weeks deposited by non-enrolled owners.

In addition, Marriott has the right to take from the week pool to fill request from the point pool.

I love when Marriott says that if you don't like the new system, keep the old system. Nothing changes unless you want it to change.....Nothing but my chances of getting an exchange, or booking a decent week at my home resort.

DanCali said:

This sound important.

So if I own at NCV and enroll and then deposit my reserved July week in II as a week, only people who use II with points can access that week? Meaning other people who are enrolled in points but trade weeks will not have access to that week either (you saw weeks traders inside or out see the same things)?

So unless you use II with points, the weeks available to you will shrink, no matter what?

That what it sounds like to me, but if I misunderstand please clarify.

We may have hit on the key on how the enrolled weeks who join for the II savings will eventually be forced to use points after all. And so will the ones who haven't enrolled...

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Sorry- I knew what I meant but I guess I wasn't clear- I meant "enrolled week owner deposits TO POINTS." Since I was talking about point owners I thought it was clear but that's because I was in my own head .

So- week owners will be trading in II with the weeks deposited by both legacy week owners and week owners enrolled in the club but reserving and depositing a week.

Point users will have access to Marriott inventory, units from week owners who converted to points for that year, and inventory from week owners who exchanged for Marriott Reward points for the year.

If Marriott cannot fulfill a request it may look to the weeks deposited by week owners in II, but from what Marirott and II have posted, they become a regular exchanger and if they take a week they must deposit a comparable week.

Hopefully, their definition of comparable is comparable to ours. Other than that weak link, trading should be similar- there will be less inventory, but commensurately less competition for it. The only other rub I foresee is that week owners may or may not get access to Marriott bulk deposits. I would assume these would go to point users- HOWEVER- Marriott wants us owners to visit to enhance our ownership with points.

m61376 said:

Sorry- I knew what I meant but I guess I wasn't clear- I meant "enrolled week owner deposits TO POINTS." Since I was talking about point owners I thought it was clear but that's because I was in my own head .

So- week owners will be trading in II with the weeks deposited by both legacy week owners and week owners enrolled in the club but reserving and depositing a week.

Point users will have access to Marriott inventory, units from week owners who converted to points for that year, and inventory from week owners who exchanged for Marriott Reward points for the year.

If Marriott cannot fulfill a request it may look to the weeks deposited by week owners in II, but from what Marirott and II have posted, they become a regular exchanger and if they take a week they must deposit a comparable week.

Hopefully, their definition of comparable is comparable to ours. Other than that weak link, trading should be similar- there will be less inventory, but commensurately less competition for it. The only other rub I foresee is that week owners may or may not get access to Marriott bulk deposits. I would assume these would go to point users- HOWEVER- Marriott wants us owners to visit to enhance our ownership with points.

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Oh, OK, thanks for clearing that up.