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3* Member - What is a Villa Upgrade?

clymberz

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I think my inlaws bought their 2 weeks together, perhaps in order to become 3* members? I noticed that 3star members have the ability to request a villa upgrade 30 days in advance (if available). What is a villa upgrade? We're going to Harborside in 2 weeks, and I wonder if I should ask the inlaws to call SVN about it?

thanks!
 

mariawolf

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I think my inlaws bought their 2 weeks together, perhaps in order to become 3* members? I noticed that 3star members have the ability to request a villa upgrade 30 days in advance (if available). What is a villa upgrade? We're going to Harborside in 2 weeks, and I wonder if I should ask the inlaws to call SVN about it?

thanks!
I think this is no longer a benefit--was discontinued some time back although not 100% sure--for example I think if you had a small one bedroom you could upgrade to the larger one bedroom at Harborside--now my understanding is they don't do this anymore. If you have a two bedroom lockoff you could ask if there are any corner units which gives you an extra balcony but I don't think the locations/views are as good on those.
 

nodge

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I noticed that 3star members have the ability to request a villa upgrade 30 days in advance (if available). What is a villa upgrade? We're going to Harborside in 2 weeks, and I wonder if I should ask the inlaws to call SVN about it?

On May 31, 2007, SVO “replaced” the villa upgrade benefit for SVN elite members with a big ol’ pile of nothin’. Here is a link to SVO VP Suzanne Clark’s now historic announcement and our initial and ongoing reaction to it.

At one point in the discussion, Suzanne told one of us Tuggers that this benefit had been restored, but “we are not going to communicate the villa upgrade as a promised benefit,” rather, SVO plans to “surprise and delight our Elite owners and automatically upgrade you when available.”

Despite that assurance, the passing of time has more or less clarified what Suzanne meant by that statement. The new upgrade rule appears to be as follows:

You’ll get one if you get one, but don’t expect one, and you won’t be disappointed, because in all likelihood you won’t actually get one, so don’t bother asking.

Are you more surprised or delighted with this new rule?

-nodge
 

clymberz

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Nodge,

Thank you for clarifying with a sense of humor. I am going for free so don't feel "gipped." My inlaws and their friends who bought the 2 units together may or may have not known about the retracted commitment, so no biggee there.

Thanks!

-alex
 

jarta

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clymberz, ... The Clarke memo says: "The Villa Upgrade benefit was replaced due to a 90-percent occupancy rate at our vacation ownership resorts that prevented us from fulfilling on this upgrade."

When a substantial portion of the 90% occupancy at an SVO resort arriving each check in day all start asking for an automatic upgrade in room, you can see the impossibility of making everyone happy. So, in the middle of 2007, Starwood reneged on its promise of an automatic upgrade at the SVO resort.

Now, when you make the reservation, you are asked if you have any preferences. They are recorded with the reservation and the agent tells you they are just requests that are not guaranteed. The preferences, things like preferred building number, floor and view, are sometimes not all fulfilled. But, I have found that many are honored. I suspect that Starwood rewards its Elite members by granting the preference requests by Elite level order.

The new (in 2007) benefits have been referred to as "a big ol' pile of nothin'." I don't see it that way, especially if you are 4* or 5* Elite.

4* and 5* Elite members were given the ability to convert staroptions to starpoints until October 1 of the year from March 31. 3* Elite have until July 1 to decide to convert. I find this option useful in this situation: You make a reservation for, say, August (or later) and find in May that you cannot use the unit then - or maybe not both sides of it. If you cannot make a new reservation into a place like Harborside or St. John or Hawaii because they are already full by the time you want a reservation, you can still make the conversion. Deciding everything, of necessity, so early in any year or, even, a year earlier (at usually 12-7.5 months out) and not being able to convert yearly options after March 31 of any year is very restrictive.

And, if you convert (anytime) and are 4* or 5* Elite, you now get a 10% bonus in points during the conversion. This makes the economic disadvantage of converting options to hotel points a little less of a loss. Moreover, if you are 5* Elite, you are Platinum in the hotel side of Starwood and upgrades at the hotels are available when you use those points.

The new benefits are certainly not a Lexus in the driveway at Christmas, but they do have value for procrastinators like me. I do not feel ravaged by the changes. Anyway, I am 5* and I have found that most of my preferences are still filled.

As for asking for an upgrade at a place like Harborside from a smaller 1-br to a larger 1-br, if you usually can't make a reservation for any type of unit after the 8 month window (excepting hurricane season) and there is a wait list for units each week, why even ask? I've never heard of anyone successfully doing it.

Anyway, once you get a 3-br reservation at Harborside for a good week, you don't turn it back in - unless, maybe, lightning strikes and your wait list reservation at St. John for a 3-br comes through. Whatever the size of the unit, you rent out the Harborside week for a sum in excess of the yearly MF if you find you can't use the reservation. :) ... eom
 
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Ken555

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I don't follow the StarOption -> StarPoint rules closely since all my units are resale and I can't do this (nor would I want to). But, I had thought the Elite benefits always included the ability to convert later in the year, and that this benefit was not announced at the same time as the cancellation of the unit upgrade policy. No, I haven't checked the archives so I may be wrong.
 

jarta

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Ken, ... Please look at the link that nodge posted. I did - and then mis-posted something. The old conversion date cutoff for all SVO Elite owners was May 31, not March 31. Conversion by March 31 is for SVO owners who do not qualify for any Elite level. Their conversion period starts October 1 of the prior year and runs until March 31 of the use year. It's still that way for non-Elite SVO owners.

Here's a cut and paste quote from the 2007 Starwood letter announcing the reneging/abolishment on the villa upgrade:

"New Extended Starpoints Conversion Period

Instead of the current extended Starwood Preferred Guest® Starpoints® Conversion Period of May 31, Starwood Vacation Network Elite Four- and Five-Star members will now have until October 1—an additional four months—to decide whether or not to convert your Use Weeks to Starpoints for use at more than 850 Starwood hotels and resorts worldwide. That gives you the ability to convert year-round. Please note that this new benefit will be available to you beginning with the conversion period for the 2008 Use Year"

Last year I waited too long to make a reservation and used the benefit to convert a 2008 week (small half of a 2-br lockoff) to points on September 30 of 2008. I found it convenient to dump the week rather than use II. Anyway, ponts are good for 6 years from the date of conversion. II requires the deposited week to be used to reserve somewhere within 2 years. :) ... eom
 

Ken555

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Nice to extend it by four months and I can see where it may help some folks out on occasion. But... I still can't agree that it's a worthwhile exchange in any but the most extreme situations due to all the reasons that have been posted on this forum many times in the past...
 

Henry M.

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If you travel to the right places and use your points judiciously, and depending on where you own, they can be worth about as much as you could rent out your unit or more, with a lot less hassle. The conversion may not be the absolute best use of your timeshare, but Starpoints are not always as bad as they are made out to be in these forums.

A lot of the value of Starpoints depends on the owner's travel habits and the places where he would use a Starwood hotel. For some they are indeed not worth it, but for others they can be a very good deal. You can't make a blanket statement about them being a good or bad value.

For me Starpoints are very useful and the ability to wait until October to convert adds a lot of flexibility to my ownership.
 

Ken555

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You can't make a blanket statement about them being a good or bad value.

Actually, I think many people already have done such in the past. I think converting to StarPoints is almost universally a bad option. It's the rare situation where you'll redeem enough value from them to compensate fairly for just the MFs (ignoring the initial investment allocation for the usage year). I'm glad to hear you think otherwise, and there are definitely people who agree with you. I also believe that Platinum SPG members will obtain greater value from points than others, and that needs to be a factor when considering each conversion valuation.
 

Henry M.

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I regularly redeem more than $3,000 for the 80K Starpoints that I get for my WKORV weeks. Sometimes it's more like $4,500 which is slightly higher than what I've rented my unit for and more than double the maintenance fees. If I owned at a place that rents for less and has lower maintenance fees I'd be doing even better.

I don't argue that the extra money paid to have the privilege of exchanging was justified. I'm jut saying the exchange itself is not such a bad deal for everyone.

I know people make all kinds of blanket statements, I meant to say people shouldn't make them. Of course people make all kinds of declarations, whether they're true or not.
 

DavidnRobin

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Let's try looking at this SO-SP conversion argument from a different perspective:

In today's Timeshare market - can one put together a defendable rationale that makes the ability to convert SOs to SPs that supports buying a VOI from SVO?

This argument could be defendable years ago (e.g. buying WKV preconstruction) - but it would be extremely difficult in today's market. Perhaps for someone that wants 5*/PFL, but that would only come with the added benefit for the ability for SO-SP conversion and not the primary reason.

If you can - then you have an excellent career opportunity as a SVO salesperson.

This same argument was attempted by a SVO salesman during our Owners Update at WKORV. Complete the other half of our WPORV EOY and the SP incentive and the SO-SP conversion would pay for itself if I used those SPs for two 1st class tickets to Rome and a 5-nite stay at the 7-star Rome SPG hotel - worth a total of $29,000!!! and it would only cost me $26,000! ahhh.... nope...
 
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jarta

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This mid-Summer I am staying in Copenhagen at the Palace Hotel for 2 nights before and 1 night after a cruise. I booked 2 rooms (wife and I in one room; my business partner and her spouse in the other) for 3 nights - a Friday, a Saturday and a Sunday.

Total Starpoints used was 60,000 Starpoints (10,000 per night).

The rack rate for the lowest priced room in the hotel is $290 per night. Value is $1,740. Complete hotel renovation to Le Meridien standards ended in September of 2008. It's right on the main town square across from Tivoli Park.

For my WKV or my LMR 2-br Platinum units, I can deposit 144,100 options for 72,000 points. The annual 2-br MF at either resort is less than $1,200 per year.

So, did I get screwed?

Of course, using the 3-br Platinum at Harborside doesn't produce the same results, but I'll never convert those options to points. The MF is too high.

BTW, Starwood has lost the management contract for this hotel. It's now the Scandia Palace Hotel. But, Scandia honored my reservation using Starpoints. However, I doubt my request for an upgrade will be welcome. lol! :) ... eom
 
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DeniseM

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For my WKV or my LMR 2-br Platinum units, I can deposit 144,100 options for 72,000 points. The annual 2-br MF at either resort is less than $1,200 per year.

So, did I get screwed?

Except... didn't you buy these units from the developer? If you factor in your upfront cost, then yes, I think it's a poor deal.

Plus, I sure hope you don't routinely pay rack rate at hotels!
 
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jarta

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Denise, ... Wow! An immediate response.

What percentage of my "upfront cost" should I factor into the reservation cost since I still retain full ownership of the units in perpetuity? Should I use a 20-year useful life or 5%? Perhaps a 40-year useful life or 2.5%? 5% of $40,000 is $800. Is that what I should add?

That almost puts me even since the less than $1,200 MF and the $800 "depreciation" add up to about $2,000 for 72,000 points and 60,000 points got me a $1,740 value. $2,000 X 60,000/72,000 = $1,666.66. Did I get screwed by Starwood by converting - even with your assumption?

And, I bought WKV on the secondary market (for $20,000) and retroed it. Should I use a percentage of that non-developer purchase price if the points came from a WKV conversion? Or, should I allocate part of the next purchase "upfront cost" at LMR used for the retro as an addition to the basis at WKV? Or, should I allocate, in part, the cost of the cruise since we needed a place to stay?

What matters is the numbers work for me and I'm extremely happy with the opportunity to convert and use the options for points. So are other SVO owners who post here.

The Starpoints I used for these reservations actually came as "free" ones when I purchased from the developer purchases - which, of course, reduced my "upfront cost" for those developer purchases.

Sometimes I think that nothing Starwood can do for its SVO owners is good enough for us TUGers. We are a very tough bunch! :D ... eom
 
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DeniseM

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What matters is the numbers work for me and I'm extremely happy with the opportunity to convert and use the options for points. So are other SVO owners who post here.

I'm glad you are happy with your ownership - I really feel bad for people who have serious regrets about getting into timesharing.

BUT, we will have to agree to disagree about converting to Starpoints... I think it probably more attractive to people who have Starpoints to burn and are luxury travelers - which I am not. In fact, I'm proud to say that I'm basically cheap! :D

And while you have quite a few Tuggers who agree with you, there are also quite a few that don't.... ;)
 

jarta

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Denise, ... In my mind you are still the greatest asset this Starwood board has. :)

There is nothing wrong with you being cheap, frugal or value-conscious. Whatever our assets are, we all should be careful how we spend our available money, options and points. ... eom
 

DavidnRobin

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My above post wasn't denying a benefit - the question posed is it worth it to buy from SVO to get this benefit (anymore)?

btw, I have 5 nites at the Park Lane (London), 5 nites Hotel Pulitzer (AMS), 5 nites Westin Paris, (all w/ upgrades using SPs) and 3 nites at Westin Napa... all on SPs (not converted) - and we still have >200K left.
added: but I would never multiply the rack rate of those stays and calculate the $ value I was getting out of my SP usage - nice to have, but it is fuzzy math

I also successfully (so far) rent some of my TS to cover MFs...

We love TSing.

I would never recommend to someone to buy from SVO for the SO-SP conversion benefit - or for any reason for that matter.

I see a future in TS sales for you...
 
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nodge

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I think from a “better than a sharp stick in the eye” standard, SVO’s replacement benefits for villa upgrades for elite owners certainly are better than that. Yet, shockingly, not one person has stepped up to the plate here to say the 4000 Starpoint bonus for booking a $27,000 “signature escape” African safari made their day.

But, from a “should I buy another developer timeshare from SVO for $20K to $40K” standard, we all will agree these replacement benefits don’t even come close to measuring up.

To understand my "beef" with SVO on this one we'll need to power up the wayback machine Mr. Peabody and travel back to early 2007.

Back then, SVO was heavily, and I mean heavily, marketing its elite program with the villa upgrade feature. Giant, and I mean giant, floor-to-ceiling posters graced every SVO timeshare lobby touting “elite ownership has its benefits.” Taking a marketing cue from Denny’s, SVO even placed those mini-folding paper tents with the same message in EVERY villa room. Every SVO salesperson, including mine, talked up the benefits of being upgraded as an elite owner. “You can use only 67,100 StarOptions but be upgraded to an 81,000 StarOption room 30 days out.” “You’ll know well ahead of time too, so you can plan accordingly.”

And because of all these promises, people, including me, bought.

Even on May 30, 2007, the day before Suzanne Clarke’s email killing the upgrade program, people were buying developer units by the bushel, All of them filled with the excitement of the lifetime of upgrades promised by everyone at SVO and posted everywhere around SVO properties. All of us were busy happily humming SVO’s praises and enjoying our good fortunes for finding such a great opportunity.

Then, on May 31, 2007, Suzanne Clark, VP of SVO “Owner Services,” dropped her bomb, and our (well at least my) faith in SVO management was lost forever.

The best indicator that the “replacement” benefits don’t come close to measuring up to the killed elite upgrade benefit can be found in the lobbies and villa rooms of the SVO properties. Gone are the floor-to-ceiling banners. Gone are the mini-folding paper tents, and gone, even way before the economy tanked, were the people flocking to buy new developer units to achieve SVO elite status (except of course for the smaller subset of those still pursuing 5 Star to achieve SPG platinum status).

So everyone singing the praises of their extended Starpoint conversion windows, and 10% Starpoint bonuses, and 4000 StarPoint bonus when buying a $27,000 African Safari, remember that those benefits are resting on the crushed excitement and faith many of us once had in SVO. After SVO promised us something meaningful and abruptly took it away, it had the nerve to throw us those “benefits,” which are really just scraps SVO deemed worthless enough to throw our way.

-nodge
 
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Henry M.

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There are two separate discussions here:

1.) Is converting Staroptions to Starpoints a good deal?

2.) Is the Starpoint conversion worth enough to buy from the developer?

For 1.) I'd say it can be, depending on your travel habits. There are at least two people in this thread that get way more than their maintenance fees, and we are not comparing rack rates, but rather the lowest available rate for a given room. It is also true that many will not benefit from the conversion because they may not travel enough or don't like Starwood hotels for one reason or another.

For 2.), I think it is clear it is not worth buying all you units from the developer. It might make sense to retro some units, though. You'll pay a little more but the conversion privilege is worth something if you can get value from your Starpoint conversion.
 

stevens397

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I'm glad you are happy with your ownership - I really feel bad for people who have serious regrets about getting into timesharing.

BUT, we will have to agree to disagree about converting to Starpoints... I think it probably more attractive to people who have Starpoints to burn and are luxury travelers - which I am not. In fact, I'm proud to say that I'm basically cheap! :D

And while you have quite a few Tuggers who agree with you, there are also quite a few that don't.... ;)

Here's a scenario Denise. Bought Kierland early on and ended up (including points from credit card) with 152,000 Starpoints 5 years ago. They were worth a fortune back then.

Last year we could not use it and decided to reserve Super Bowl week and rent it out. No matter what I charged, we never got one bite. At the net price I paid, I never regretted buying from the developer. Business Class to Hawaii (for 2) and five nights at the Princeville Hotel. But being able to turn what was an unrentable week back to Starwood definitely made my life easier. And like a previous poster, I got a whole lot of value - a Business Class ticket to Europe with 7,000 points left over.

That said, my last purchase was a WMH resale - there's a place for everything. Would I recommend people buying from the developer now? Probably not - but I personally never regretted the deal I got. Sounds like some others feel the same way. De gustibus non est disputandem.
 
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stevens397

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BTW - did any of you ever feel that if someone started a thread titled "Starwood CEO states sun will now rise from West to East" that somehow the thread would end up discussing the pros versus the cons of developer purchase!
 

m61376

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As a Marriott owner I find this thread interesting. As Tuggers, I think we're all alike. It doesn't take much prompting on the Marriott forum to debate the value of points either. Basically the only difference between buying a Marriott direct and resale is the ability to trade for points, but Marriott never offers the opportunity to requalify so that doesn't fit into the equation. Resale or direct purchases book and trade the same.

I found DavidnRobin's post about not using rack rates to justify value particularly interesting, because that's a point I have made repeatedly, but many Marriott owners feel the opportunity to take that trip that they wouldn't otherwise take or might not take in the first class style is worth it and value that travel at rack rates.
 

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I think I have a plan to improve the elite program benefits while still satisfying SVO’s goal of not actually spending any money to provide any actual benefits. Hear me out.

I propose adding the following two benefits to the elite program:



Proposed New Elite Benefit No. 1: Authorized pool chair hogging

Apparently, even at resorts that claim to enforce the no pool chair hogging rules, everyone already gets an hour after placing a flip-flop, old magazine, or tennis ball on a pool chair in the morning before they have to actually occupy it. I say have SVO authorize elite members to have limited pool chair hogging privileges as follows:

3 Stars: Receive two official brown flip-flops from SVO (Each one worth holding any SVO pool chair at any SVO resort for up to two hours)

4 Stars: Receive two official yellow flip-flops from SVO (Each one worth holding any SVO pool chairs at any SVO resort for up to three hours)

5 Stars: Receive two official orange flip-flops from SVO (Each one worth holding any SVO pool chair at any SVO resort for up to four hours)



Proposed New Elite Benefit No. 2: Elite Owners can pick the week to deposit with an exchange company without any hassles from SVO:

3 Stars: Must first listen to 2 hours of AM EX ads before depositing.

4 Stars: Must first listen to 1 hour of AM EX ads before depositing; and,

5 Stars: Need not listen to any AM EX ads before depositing.

What’dya think?

-nodge
 
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Henry M.

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I think the value of points is whatever they save you. If you would want to stay in an ultrabudget room regardless of what you could afford, then that is what your points are worth. If you would always want the presidential suite if you only had the cash and you can get it for points, then that is what you should use to value them.

Rarely does anyone pay full rack rate for a given room, though. I'd use the rate that I can book for the particular room I'm getting.
 
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