Points presentation at MCV

good afternoon

tlwmkw...

As you know, I am one of the few TUGGERS that supported this at first. I have booked all of my 2011 weeks the old fashioned way (with the exception of 1) I was discussing how on 7/26 I was going to convert this week to points (3775) and add my 800 for a total of 4550 and book some sun-thurs stays at trust resorts within driving distance. I was told not to count on availability of "trust" inventory. I stated that you can't possibly be sold out yet!!! This is when the legacy points/trust points dichotomy was brought to my attention!!!

they mentioned it to me without "prodding", as it dot appear I knew the rules...

now I do...

I am sure trust inventory will be made available to us legacy drones, but is the principle of playing second fiddle that is irritating...

If it is true that Legacy "points" are less valuable than trust "points", it doesn't surprise me and fits in with a "for profit" business model.

Marriott doesn't want the nickel and dime $595 fee from converting Legacy owners if they are not buying points. What money is there to be made in that, especially if they don't convert to points, but just keep using their weeks?

They want the big bucks that come from selling points!!! That's where they make their money.

So, $595 vs. $9200. What would you want if you wanted to pull a profit?

Good afternoon

You would have to be nuts to buy points at these prices. Most of the units can be rented on red week.com for just a smudge above the mf's for the points required by a trust owner.

The ski week that requires 5500 pts. (2200 mf) is up for rent for $3000. This is without the 50k outlay....

I wish them well

All,

I think Siberiavol was on point in saying that Marriott owns 100% of the Trust right now, and with 42M points to sell, it will be awhile before that number meaningfully drops.

Accordingly, as the owner of those points/weeks, they can and will exchange those in the Enrollee Points pool even if it turns out to be true that the points pools are separated -- this may be a technicality to the legal structure of the inventory. However, I can hear the sales pitch -- "as a points purchaser, you have first access to our new/best properties, but can still get to the legacy system........"

One of our good TUGgers is running the test case, and trying to exchange two Waiohai weeks for a 3BR at Kauai Lagoons -- if that goes through without a hitch (and I mean, right away, there's a ton of KL inventory), then we know the points are functionally co-mingled.

I want to point out (for anyone from Marriott reading this thread) -- you are absolutely killing your brand. The skim was the first outrage and now the suggestion that enrolled points will be a second tier user is almost as damaging (but The Skim remains in first place, in my view).

Good luck to all,

Greg

puckmanfl said:

Good afternoon

You would have to be nuts to buy points at these prices. Most of the units can be rented on red week.com for just a smudge above the mf's for the points required by a trust owner.

The ski week that requires 5500 pts. (2200 mf) is up for rent for $3000. This is without the 50k outlay....

I wish them well

Click to expand...

Puck, this is a great point and applies to other properties as well. A 1BR at Ko Olina requires 3,725 points -- or $1,490 in MFs. You can rent a 1BR at Ko Olina for $1,500.

The MFs alone closely correlate to the rental cost at the properties I monitor. It is incredibly difficult to find an argument for someone to write the check for $9.20/point and then pay the full weekly rental cost for the unit.

Nice find on the dual inventory by the way, although I believe they will be functionally co-mingled. Agree on your point about the principle of accepting being a second tier user -- sad how we have to rationalize getting over these things (The Skim/Second Tier) to actually use the points system.

Best,

Greg

Good afternoon

Greg

I am the nutty Tugger doing the test case on7/26. This is how this started. My guru said you won't see Kauai Lagoons on points as A legacy points player on 7/26.....

I asked Why???? The rest is history....

I plan on listening to my good friend Sue and continuing my test drive on 7/26 ... It is all good as I already have my ski exchange and Hawaii booked the old way for2011. I will be the official Tug test driver on 7/26 and report Immediately

puckmanfl said:

I plan on listening to my good friend Sue and continuing my test drive on 7/26 ... It is all good as I already have my ski exchange and Hawaii booked the old way for2011. I will be the official Tug test driver on 7/26 and report Immediately

Click to expand...

Gentlemen/women, start your engines!

puckmanfl said:

Good afternoon

Greg

I am the nutty Tugger doing the test case on7/26. This is how this started. My guru said you won't see Kauai Lagoons on points as A legacy points player on 7/26.....

I asked Why???? The rest is history....

I plan on listening to my good friend Sue and continuing my test drive on 7/26 ... It is all good as I already have my ski exchange and Hawaii booked the old way for2011. I will be the official Tug test driver on 7/26 and report Immediately

Click to expand...

If Marriott is watching Tug, as I suspect they are then you probably will be rewarded for all your work . They'd be very foolish to not get you what you want if available Puckman

Luckybee said:

If Marriott is watching Tug, as I suspect they are then you probably will be rewarded for all your work . They'd be very foolish to not get you what you want if available Puckman

Click to expand...

I agree -- I can see the Marriott rep now calling the Exchange Department and saying "get that guy from Florida his trade before Tibbitts writes another rant and before LauraC goes postal".

Good luck and let us know -- we'll be curious!!

GregT said:

Puck, this is a great point and applies to other properties as well. A 1BR at Ko Olina requires 3,725 points -- or $1,490 in MFs. You can rent a 1BR at Ko Olina for $1,500.

Click to expand...

Same with NCV summer... 4700 points = about $1900 in MFs (not to mention the $45K capital outlay).

I rented out my 2010 August week for slightly less than that...

So there will be how many classes of owners?

1. Deeded resale

2. Deeded developer

3. Deeded enrolled resale (they have to keep the asterisk in case you quit)

4. Deeded enrolled developer

5. Deeded enrolled resale w/point purchase (do you lose the asterisk?)

6. Deeded enrolled developer w/point purchase

7. Point purchaser


And they are going to prioritize/match how many classes of inventory?

Class A Dpoints
Class B Dpoints

Class A Weeks
Class B Weeks
Class A weeks that became available to Class B

Class A Weekend days
Class B Weekend days
Class A weekend days that became available to Class B

Class A Week days
Class B Week days
Class A week days that became available to Class B

MRP

edited to add: And somehow their interface with II comes into play as well.

Have I missed any?

Oh, what a tangled web we weave . . .

Do I sense this being outsourced to India in the near future?

windje2000 said:

So there will be how many classes of owners?

1. Deeded resale

2. Deeded developer

3. Deeded enrolled resale (they have to keep the asterisk in case you quit)

4. Deeded enrolled developer

5. Deeded enrolled resale w/point purchase (do you lose the asterisk?)

6. Deeded enrolled developer w/point purchase

7. Point purchaser


And they are going to prioritize/match how many classes of inventory?

Class A Dpoints
Class B Dpoints

Class A Weeks
Class B Weeks
Class A weeks that became available to Class B

Class A Weekend days
Class B Weekend days
Class A weekend days that became available to Class B

Class A Week days
Class B Week days
Class A week days that became available to Class B

MRP

Have I missed any?

Oh, what a tangled web we weave . . .

Do I sense this being outsourced to India in the near future?

Click to expand...

Now I understand post 52!

When you think about it, why did Marriott give the Legacy member the promise that everything would be the same ... what's in it for Marriott if you don't convert to points?

I think I'm going to stay outside, at least until all the dust settles and those that do join can tell the rest of us the pros and cons...IF they can be objective.

Marriott seems like a sinking ship right now and the Captain isn't saying anything.

Brian

windje2000 said:

Pointless? That's the problem!!!

Buy some points! Get full access!

That's the point D) of the program.

Click to expand...

DanCali said:

Now I understand post 52!

Click to expand...

Yup! This is giving me a headache.

Good afternoon

I loyally purchased 85k worth of product from the developer. I banked all my incentive points and got tons of great info from my guru!!!! I pAy my mf's on time.

All I want for Xmas is a fair set of understandable rules to play by!!!!!

Will let you know how it goes on 7/26

Off to lakeshore Friday in one of those 3 bedroom town homes off an old fashioned upgrade from a 2 bedroom grand vista trade...

puckmanfl said:

Good afternoon

Greg

I am the nutty Tugger doing the test case on7/26. This is how this started. My guru said you won't see Kauai Lagoons on points as A legacy points player on 7/26.....

I asked Why???? The rest is history....

I plan on listening to my good friend Sue and continuing my test drive on 7/26 ... It is all good as I already have my ski exchange and Hawaii booked the old way for2011. I will be the official Tug test driver on 7/26 and report Immediately

Click to expand...

Oh no! You can't blame anything that happens on me! :hysterical:

I'll be doing a test drive that day, too, comparing what can be done with Points and II. But first I need to figure out exactly where and when we want to go next year ...

What I really like about Points, although I don't know how much it will be in effect at the outset because of all these inventory pool questions, is the ability to make an instant exchange and know exactly what you're getting. Eventually when the pools have all intermingled enough and the kinks are worked out, we'll be able to know at the end of a phone call where we're going, when, and what kind of unit/view we'll be enjoying. That will pacify my "hate to wait" gene, and also prevent those surprises at check-in when you find that an owner exchanging through II back into a home resort has bumped you from your oceanfront unit to a gardenview. (I was the owner exchanging back in twice on Getaways who got bumped up from GV to that OF unit, and once was bumped down as a non-owner on an exchange, so I know it happens.)

We might be forgetting that Marriott Corp probably still owns 95% of trust at this point in time. They have the same right to turn in a week into new program as an enrolled member. Marriott as an owner has to do something with those weeks. They are not going to sit on them waiting for the 5% of the trust owners who are new point buyers to make up their mind on what they want.

They will wear their owner hat and deposit into points pool as requests come in. I had assumed they would be most of their inventory but I can't see it being none of their inventory. The likely worst case is they release it more gradually to give new point buyers a better opportunity to see trust properties.

When I was at BPT two weeks ago, the sales rep made it seem like points are points, and that I would have access to Marriott's inventory in the trust. (Of course, they gave me such few points that I do not think I could ever go there - unless I am willing to use my 2 units for 1 week at those high-end properties. Then one might start to think that it would be cheaper to rent. I am giving up 4 weeks vacation - because I have lock-offs - in the old system to stay one week on Marco Island!)

I agree that knowing whether legacy owners have access to trust inventory is crucial in decision-making about joining Destination Points Program.

Maybe someone can confirm.

Thanks.

puckmanfl said:

good afternoon

tlwmkw...

As you know, I am one of the few TUGGERS that supported this at first. I have booked all of my 2011 weeks the old fashioned way (with the exception of 1) I was discussing how on 7/26 I was going to convert this week to points (3775) and add my 800 for a total of 4550 and book some sun-thurs stays at trust resorts within driving distance. I was told not to count on availability of "trust" inventory. I stated that you can't possibly be sold out yet!!! This is when the legacy points/trust points dichotomy was brought to my attention!!!

they mentioned it to me without "prodding", as it dot appear I knew the rules...

now I do...

I am sure trust inventory will be made available to us legacy drones, but is the principle of playing second fiddle that is irritating...

Click to expand...

This behavior tells you the sales people know exactly what the plan is all about and exactly what they're doing . . . which is not disclosing material information.

At some point, this goes beyond being a contract of adhesion and becomes fraud in the inducement.

IANAL, but I can sure see why they want you to waive your right to a jury trial when you sign up for this.

I just made a couple of phone calls to MVCI reference this heretofore unannounced two party system. Both times I was transferred to points specialist. The first call went well. The rep put me on hold for about 30 seconds or so while she checked with her supervisor. When she came back on she allayed my concerns with the statement"..Points are points, no matter where they came from". As soon as she said this a power outage occurred at my end and we were disconnected.

The second phone call didn't go as well. Again I was transferred to a points specialist and she put me on hold for about 3-4 minutes while she talked to her supervisor. She did indeed confirm everything that Puckman had put out in his original post on this topic. I was stunned. Legacy week owners can only use their points at resorts where other legacy week owners have handed over their weeks for points. We will have no access to the points in the beneficial trust. Not now, not ever.

As I had just enrolled last night I asked her to un-enroll me. She transferred me again to someone who tried to satisfy me by saying that I could still get a week in the beneficial trust if a beneficial owner deposited with II. I told her that wasn't worth $700 to join and $200 a year as I can do that already with II. I just received my cancellation notice back via E-mail.


As requested, the following inventories have been un-enrolled from the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program.
then it lists my resorts followed by;

If you have already elected your ownership week for Vacation Club Points, your Vacation Club Points will still be available for your use. The option to continue to elect your ownership week to Vacation Club Points will no longer be available.

If you purchased your ownership week outside of Marriott Vacation Club, your benefit of trading your Marriott Vacation Week for Marriott Rewards Points will also end with your un-enrollment in the program.

All I can say is I'm stunned by this development. I've been a fairly strong supporter of Marriott on this board but now I'm completely disillusioned.

A rep just told me ALL Points are available

Rick : If I enroll in the new program, convert my weeks for points and then look for exchanges, do I have access to ALL points inventories?
Sadie B.: You have access to all the Marriott Vacation Club Timeshare inventory traded by owners.
Rick : Does that mean I do NOT have access to the inventory in the trust?
Sadie B.: The trust program is part of the program and yes you will have access to that inventory.
Rick : So I have access to those weeks traded by legacy weeks owners who also enrolled and exchanged their weeks for points as well as any weeks available in the trust. Is that correct?
Sadie B.: That is correct.
Rick : Thanks
Sadie B.: You're welcome

windje2000 said:

This behavior tells you the sales people know exactly what the plan is all about and exactly what they're doing . . . which is not disclosing material information.

At some point, this goes beyond being a contract of adhesion and becomes fraud in the inducement.

IANAL, but I can sure see why they want you to waive your right to a jury trial when you sign up for this.

Click to expand...

FWIW, there's language in the Weeks docs also pertaining to waiving rights to a jury trial.

good afternoon

Jim...

it isn't as bleak as it looks. If I convert my legacy GV week to points AND points trust owner grabs it, The equivalent point value from the trust is made available to a legacy points player!!!

I asked if the point value made available is before or after the "skim", In other words if I convert my GV week for 3775 pts. Is 4100 or 3775 pys made available to a legacy owner waiting for his turn at lunch!!!

It still is pretty bad form.. Can anyone find anything in the documents that remotely hints at such a thing....

I would not mind as much, if trust owners were not able to grab point units created from the legacy weeks. These weeks are NOT or ever will be in the trust (the deeds belong to us).

still, am stunned!!!

rickxylon- I am assuming that was an on-line chat transcript. If so, it isn't worth the space it is posted on. Online reps have notoriously been giving out the wrong info. Two weeks ago I asked 4 people the same question and literally got 4 variations on the answer. The guys at Customer Advocacy, which seems to be where this info. is coming from, are the ones in the know or at least responsible enough to verify information.

Could this be the key?

dbbk94404 said:

I could be wrong and please correct me if I am, but I think, the key words are "MVCEC affilated resorts" for exchange members (enrolled only). And for trust members (bought points), there is no mention of "affilated resorts" when it comes to what you can exchange into (unless I missed it somewhere). Since MVCEC stands for Marriott Vacation Club Exchange Company and is not the the trust itself, it is possible to have a property in the trust and not be affilated. So, the $9,200 + MF question is "are all resorts going to be affilated?" Or am I thinking WAY too much into this and have too much time on my hands?

Click to expand...

We are not at home, and do not have easy access to everything now, but we are wondering if dbbk hasn't hit this squarely on the head! Could this be where the limitations come in for legacy owners?

We don't know any body in Marriott, so we don't have any sources to contact about this mess...but we are going to keep looking into it. If makes a big difference to us whether we have full or partial access to all the properties of MVCD...