Open Letter to Marriott

GregT · Jun 21, 2010

Dear Marriott,

I am a Gold Level Marriott Rewards Owner (63 nights in 2010 as of May 31) and will be Platinum Level (75 nights) by June 30. I own two prime weeks in the Marriott Vacation Club (Week 24/25 3BR units at MOC) and have spent a small fortune for these units. I love the Marriott properties and love the units that I own.

Until the new program announced on June 20, 2010, I would have happily purchased more Marriott timeshares, including directly from Marriott. Frankly, based upon my income level and my enthusiasm for timeshares, I should be Marriott’s target customer. With any luck, I might even one day be a Ritz Carlton customer. However, all that hard-earned brand loyalty has been destroyed. I am stunned at the new points program that has been introduced, and the callous treatment of your existing owners.

I do not understand, and am infuriated by, the “Bid/Ask” spread between what you are offering in points for someone to use the system versus what you are offering someone else (or the same person) to pay in points for that unit.

Are the annual fees and up-front costs not sufficient a financial return from the existing ownership base such that skimming is required? If not, why not? Why not give the full number of points so that more users will participate in the program and avoid the need to skim? The current structure suggests that by skimming the number of points, all Marriott cares about is selling an additional X,000 points because otherwise an enrolled week points deposit isn’t very useful. Isn’t the skimming just so that you can sell an additional 1,000 points to most people who are now short of points because they didn’t get full value? Really? Is that worth your good name?

Your new points program does not directly affect me, but I am shocked on behalf of other good Marriott owners who are caught in the chaos of the new system. Personally, I own two fixed weeks that should have been of interest to a Marriott system but I will not enroll them in the new system and I will take that $695 up-front and $199 annual fee and explore other systems like Hilton Grand Vacations Club for any additional timeshare needs.

48 hours ago, I was a happy Marriott user, loyal to the brand, and would have happily joined for $695 and paid $199 annually for a program that I would probably never employ (I like going to MOC). 96 hours ago, I almost purchased a Ko Olina EOY, but didn’t because I didn’t understand the 13 month reservation rule at Ko Olina (and if it was in the deed).

But instead, I am an eyes-opened user (with a voice, a company that employs lots of people who travel, and a keyboard) that is stunned by the money-grubbing, skimming approach of Marriott, and its callous disregard for its existing, loyal customers.

If you are a potential purchaser of Marriott points, do your research. Marriott has just broken the covenant with its existing ownership and significantly impaired the value of what people own -- what’s to stop them from doing it to you?

Learn about the high-quality timeshare organizations like Hilton (and formerly, Marriott). Learn about Wyndham. Read a lot about Wyndham and how they keep changing the rules to reduce the value that their owners have. Marriott has just done it, what’s to stop them from doing it again?

Marriott, your once-proud brand is now closer to Wyndham than Hilton.

Greg Tibbitts

TUGgers, if you have your own letter to Marriott, please post it -- otherwise please keep this thread clean except for Letters to Marriott – their focus group really let them down with the Bid/Ask. Thank you.

GregT · Jun 21, 2010

Breakage

Dear Marriott,

I understand from the sales team that the reason for the significant discount (what I consider skimming) is due to the risk of "Breakage", ie empty nights that prevent a unit from being fully occupied.

I note that other points-based systems have solved this question with Bonus Time/Open Season.

Is there really a vacancy rate at the prime properties? Are prime properties really going to be vacant 7-22% of the time?

And who's risk is it at a sold-out property, where the MFs are paid by existing owners, and who are now being given discounted values for enrolling their units?

I continue to be dismayed at the delta in the Bid/Ask, or skim, or Breakage, whatever you want to call it, and Marriott must have understood this would be a problem for some of us and must have a good explanation.

Absent a better explanation, I'm not sure how it is not skimming.

BocaBoy · Jun 23, 2010

Please Understand the Program Before Yopu Complain

Greg T's post shows again that TUG members are reacting negatively without understanding the new program as it relates to existing owners IT IS AN ADDITIONAL EXCHANGE PROGRAM for us. They are taking nothing away from us. I have similar characteristics to Greg T--Marriott Gold, future Platinum, and I also own two weeks at Lahaina Tower in Maui, plus three other weeks with Marriott.

The new program is great for Hawaii owners if they want to trade their unit. (If they don't, nothing changes.) Why? Because under the current system a Maui owner, for example, could never get fair value in a trade. They could only get a week and there was no guarantee of view. If I wanted to trade Maui for Ko Olina, I might get mountain view. This has been corrected.

I have been very critical of the recent Marriott Rewards changes and have complained about a lot of things that have changed with MVCI, but this is a real positive change. I plan to join, but probably not use it a lot. I like to stay where we bought. Even in this case, however, I will save a ton in fees (Interval, lockoff, trade for points, changes, etc.) every year.

This new program might not help all current owners, but it cannot hurt, the way I see it.

zcrider · Jun 23, 2010

Terrible points system

If I pay to join this new program and then pay a Marriott exchange fee I have the right to give Marriott 100 points of my week to get back 85 points in change to spend to get a new week with.

Thanks Marriott I am really proud to be an owner with you now!

Every exchange in this new poins program is an automatic "exchange down" in either valuable week, valuable view, or length of stay or size of villa since you only give us change to book back into another Marriott with!!!! :wall:

On top of that you gave yourselves the right to steal good II deposits and replace them with dog weeks if you want. How is any of this different then someone stealing from their own kids piggy bank?

Yes, you will make more $$ in the short term with this b/c most people will take a while to ask the right questions or catch on to the problem and will just trust blindly that Marriott has been a good company to deal with in the past. (Go buy your Marriott stock now b/c people will be fooled into dumping money into Marriott now while they are getting a "deal" to join for reduced fees in the initial start up months. :hysterical: but be ready to dump that stock in about a year when these same people start realizing the "value" they just bought into).
My husband travels a lot for work too and really racks up the hotel stays. But we are not happy Marriott fans anymore and will vote with our feet. I am thinking Hilton is looking a lot better now.

Asia2000 · Jun 23, 2010

I think all three of you make very valid points. Some see benefits in this program and others do not. Overall, the value of the asset (if that is what you can call it) is diminished with the point program based on the amount of points provided for one week (in most cases). However, some see a real benefit for staying less than a week or taking one of these overpriced cruises for a change of pace.

In the end, Marriott needed new bells and whistles to sell. In the last couple of years, Marriott has been punished financially by overextending credit and the lack of inventory to sell at some of their best resorts. Compare it to Wal-Mart having phenomenal sales year after year due to the building of new stores every year. At some point, they run out of places to build and the sales slow.

Marriott wanted a program with enough candy and options to entice. But an on purpose lack of detail to make people "just give up and buy" as well as encourage everyone to call Marriott where they could obtain details (although varying) and also receive "the pitch".

The new system gives Marriott a new platform for the future (unfortunately at the owners expense, unless you choose not to join). I suppose the option to join is a perk versus making everyone convert. I plan to use my week the same way as in the past. I do not need prime weeks and am always guaranteed a week in my season, so I'm not concerned. Most of my trades will be non-Marriott and will be here in Asia where the resorts are rarely full.

Once again, this thread may be the best one yet, outside of the new Marriott trust only containing only 11 resorts. Yes, converts to the new program will feed the points program inventory and take away from the traditional inventory. But, points will not give you as much time to stay and upgrades will not be available, making the "traditional weeks" pot sweeter. That is my hope anyway. The more that convert, the better my inventory becomes, at least in the next 10 years.

DanCali · Jun 23, 2010

BocaBoy said:
This new program might not help all current owners, but it cannot hurt, the way I see it.

Are you for real? Cannot hurt? Have you seen this?

Owner will not exercise any vote Owner may have in the owners" association ("Resort Association") operating the resort in which Owner's Timeshare Interest is located ("Resort") in a manner that is, in MVCEC's reasonable discretion, detrimental to the Program, including, without limitation, voting to limit or terminate the Resort's participation in the Program.

This paragraph alone should tell you the that many things about the program are rotten from the core... Otherwise, why would Marriott make you give up your most basic right as an onwer: the right to vote your opinion?

Sure, you can find positives inthe program. But there will be many negatives, most of which will be discovered long after you join. As for Hawaii owners now being able to get "like for like" try comparing what Hawaii owners get and what they need to exchange into other Hawaii properties. With the skim factor, it is never like for like...

windje2000 · Jun 23, 2010

DanCali said:
Are you for real? Cannot hurt? Have you seen this?

This paragraph alone should tell you the that many things about the program are rotten from the core... Otherwise, why would Marriott make you give up your most basic right as an onwer: the right to vote your opinion?

Sure, you can find positives inthe program. But there will be many negatives, most of which will be discovered long after you join. As for Hawaii owners now being able to get "like for like" try comparing what Hawaii owners get and what they need to exchange into other Hawaii properties. With the skim factor, it is never like for like...

I couldn't agree more.

They are throwing a shiny penny on the ground in the hopes that you will ignore the steamroller that will flatten you when you're not looking!

No members = no points inventory.

If you use II, go request first.

Maybe its time to set up an alternative exchange system.

Dave M · Jun 23, 2010

windje2000 said:
Maybe its time to set up an alternative exchange system.

There is one -devoted to Marriott timeshares - that has operated successfully for several years. www.OwnerTrades.com currently has 1,316 Marriott owners offering 1,891 exchanges.

BocaBoy · Jun 23, 2010

Hawaii exchanges are not like for like now

I have ocean front in Lahaina Tower. If I trade to other hawaii properties through Interval, I will usually get mountain view. That is a HUGE discount in value.

RedDogSD · Jun 23, 2010

BocaBoy said:
I have ocean front in Lahaina Tower. If I trade to other hawaii properties through Interval, I will usually get mountain view. That is a HUGE discount in value.

Yes, the Lahaina and Napili Towers Hawaii owners are the one group that is going to get something pretty decent. They are giving you enough points to get several weeks in the less popular locations and you can always reserve your home week at your home resort.

However, even the other Hawaii locations are not happy as the points given to Ko'Olina, Kauai and Big Island don't get enough points to come to Maui. They are giving a huge premium to Maui.

brigechols · Jun 23, 2010

BocaBoy said:
I have ocean front in Lahaina Tower. If I trade to other hawaii properties through Interval, I will usually get mountain view. That is a HUGE discount in value.

You could always skip Interval and perform a direct exchange with an owner at other Hawaii properties. This removes any question or doubt about the view.

BocaBoy said:
The new program is great for Hawaii owners if they want to trade their unit.

I own a 2BR Ko Olina unit and this new program is not great for me.

MikeZ · Jun 23, 2010

brigechols said:
You could always skip Interval and perform a direct exchange with an owner at other Hawaii properties. This removes any question or doubt about the view.

I own a 2BR Ko Olina unit and this new program is not great for me.

I own a 2BR Waiohai unit and this new program is not great for me, either!

potchak · Jun 23, 2010

My DH's letter to Marriott:

Dear Customer Advocacy:

Like everyone, I have had poor service or bad product experiences before but I have never written a company about my poor experience until now. I must say that I'm very concerned about the way my experience with Marriott Vacation club has been going. My wife and I purchased an every other year Waiohai and opposite year Timber Lodge from Marriott in 2006. We also purchased a Manor Club from Marriott in 2007 and a second Manor Club resale in 2007. We purchased from Marriott because we were talked into the value of the Marriott awards program as the major value over purchasing for much less in the resale market. Additionally, we were told about Marriott's use of right of first refusal and how it would keep the value of our vacation investment high.

We went ahead and invested about $64,000 in Marriott Vacation club including one resale property for about $9K and the rest direct purchases from Marriott. In the very short 3 years our experience has really been poor in terms of value. We love our properties and have stayed in other Marriott's in NJ and Aruba and have always found them to be fantastic. The concern is the investment we made with Marriott vs others that purchased resale. When we purchased, resale was running at about 30% to 40% less. Since then, it looks like this gap has increased to more than 50% and it appears that many resales are simply passing ROFR at very low prices. We still had the benefit that our units also qualify for the Marriott rewards program and we have used that a few times taking advantage of the points to go on a cruise, etc.

Now we have the new points system introduced. For only $1,995 anyone that purchase resale can now trade their unit into the Marriott rewards program. This one benefit we had for paying 30%+ premium over purchasing resale (50%+ if you just purchased resale). So our additional purchase cost of about $16,500 ($64,000 - $9,000 (resale property)=$55,000 *30% = $16,500) we could have received the same benefit by signing up for the point system for only $1,995.

I'm very disappointed in Marriott for pushing this advantage in sales for years just to allow everyone else have that advantage we paid a lot of money for, for so little. I would have thought that a company like Marriott would have done more to protect the loyalty of their customers. In three short years I have seen time and again the let down by Marriott to keep our loyalty.
1. Reduced Marriott Rewards Points program for airfare and hotels
2. Seems to have suspended to diminished ROFR causing the delta between our purchase price and resale to increase
3. Started a points system that does not provide equal point value between unit traded in verses unit reserved by points
4. Little barrier of entry for non-Marriott direct purchasers to get into Marriott Rewards program for their units

The properties are fantastic but the program has continued to diminish in value at an alarming rate. I would ask that you please do a better job at making our Marriott Vacation Club experience a success not just at the resort but also in the way the program is administered. Simple ideas would be to give owners that bought directly from Marriott a 30% increase in point allotments each year to match the additional initial purchase they paid, or to grant one time bonuses of points and give them a higher priority for reserving units. Some value more than pay us $1,995 and now everyone is equal in the eyes of Marriott.

I look forward to hearing your ideas on value and how our loyalty to Marriott has been rewarded. Perhaps I'm missing something and we are not taking full advantage of what we purchased. Thank you.

Sincerely,
XXXXXXX

kmij · Jun 23, 2010

we own two weeks at ko'olina in a penthouse unit. i think we will have to find an owner to trade with ourselves. we did trade into MOC for next feb. i am sure glad that we did, as who knows if we will ever be able to again.
we traded through II one year for waiohai (SP?). it was a beautiful resort but we gave up our PH unit for a place overlooking the parking lot!! it was a gamble we took. aside from that, it was a great week.
i am not going to be changing over to the new points program. we will try to exchange with owners or vacation where we bought.

SueDonJ · Jun 23, 2010

potchak said:
My DH's letter to Marriott: ...

Wow, Shorty! Your husband has done a fabulous job! Thank you so much for posting this.

For one thing, it's so infrequent that we see on TUG the point of view of the direct purchaser being championed. For another, more personal, what your husband put into words has been floating around in my brain for a few days, but it wasn't coherent or developed. NOW I understand what I've been thinking!

Is it okay for me to adopt the thoughts when I'm speaking with my sales rep to start the enrollment process? I wouldn't quote him word-for-word or ever put his words into writing without his permission, anyway, but I'd like him to know that I'll be repeating his sentiment that it is still possible for them to distinguish their direct purchasers through bonus incentives.

Nice job, I am impressed. :clap:

brigechols · Jun 23, 2010

potchak said:
For only $1,995 anyone that purchase resale can now trade their unit into the Marriott rewards program.

Can you tell me where Marriott states that resale buyers can now turn in a week for Marriott rewards points?

SueDonJ · Jun 23, 2010

brigechols said:
Can you tell me where Marriott states that resale buyers can now turn in a week for Marriott rewards points?

from the FAQ (bolding mine):

I originally purchased my Marriott Vacation Club week(s) as an external sale through the secondary market. Would the benefits of enrolling be different for me?
If your external purchase closed prior to June 20, 2010, it is eligible to be enrolled with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program. The enrollment fee for one externally purchased week will initially be $1,495, and enrolling multiple externally purchased weeks will initially total $1,995. This offer is expected to be available only through December 31, 2010. Once you enroll your week(s), you will gain the annual option to elect Vacation Club Points, and you may also add the option of trading your week(s) for Marriott Rewards points if the week(s) you purchased externally are eligible for Marriott Rewards trade. You also will gain the benefit and convenience of the annual single-use fee (Club Dues).

Others have found the language which clarifies that the only limitation is whether or not the resort offered the MRP-exchange option to developer purchasers. Some resorts never did offer it, in which case it isn't possible to give any Weeks owners at that resort the option if they enroll.

brigechols · Jun 23, 2010

SueDonJ said:
from the FAQ (bolding mine):

Others have found the language which clarifies that the only limitation is whether or not the resort offered the MRP-exchange option to developer purchasers. Some resorts never did offer it, in which case it isn't possible to give any Weeks owners at that resort the option if they enroll.

Do you know whether there is an additional fee associated with adding the MRP-exchange option?

SueDonJ · Jun 23, 2010

brigechols said:
Do you know whether there is an additional fee associated with adding the MRP-exchange option?

Don't think so, haven't seen any mention of one.

brigechols · Jun 23, 2010

Just got off the phone with Marriott. There is no additional fee associated with adding the MRP-exchange option. My 3BR Grande Vista would be eligible for 125,000 Marriott reward points EOY and my 2 BR Ko Olina would be eligible for 85,000 Marriott reward points EOY. According to the Owner Services representative, these are the exact number of reward points and terms given to direct purchasers from Marriott.

In fact, the rep played down the use of MRP and pointed out that since I generally travel with six people, trading for MRP will not result in enough points to book two hotel rooms for one week.

aka Julie · Jun 23, 2010

Does anyone know how many MRPs a Platinum week at ShadowRidge is worth and is it available EY or EOY? We bought ours resale and since it wasn't an option at the time, I didn't check it out. I'm leaning toward not enrolling in the new program, but the turning in for MRPs might tip the scale a "little bit."

Latravel · Jun 23, 2010

DanCali said:
Are you for real? Cannot hurt? Have you seen this?

This paragraph alone should tell you the that many things about the program are rotten from the core... Otherwise, why would Marriott make you give up your most basic right as an onwer: the right to vote your opinion?

Sure, you can find positives inthe program. But there will be many negatives, most of which will be discovered long after you join. As for Hawaii owners now being able to get "like for like" try comparing what Hawaii owners get and what they need to exchange into other Hawaii properties. With the skim factor, it is never like for like...

Come on! How many times did you vote and how many times did it really change anything? Marriott was and always will be in charge. We need them more than they need us and that's just being realistic about the situation.

aka Julie · Jun 23, 2010

Latravel said:
Come on! How many times did you vote and how many times did it really change anything? Marriott was and always will be in charge. We need them more than they need us and that's just being realistic about the situation.

That's true, but the fact that they have the arrogance to say we have to give up our rights to join leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's true that the majority do not excercise their rights, that's a shame.

Latravel · Jun 23, 2010

potchak said:
My DH's letter to Marriott:

Dear Customer Advocacy:

Like everyone, I have had poor service or bad product experiences before but I have never written a company about my poor experience until now. I must say that I'm very concerned about the way my experience with Marriott Vacation club has been going. My wife and I purchased an every other year Waiohai and opposite year Timber Lodge from Marriott in 2006. We also purchased a Manor Club from Marriott in 2007 and a second Manor Club resale in 2007. We purchased from Marriott because we were talked into the value of the Marriott awards program as the major value over purchasing for much less in the resale market. Additionally, we were told about Marriott's use of right of first refusal and how it would keep the value of our vacation investment high.

We went ahead and invested about $64,000 in Marriott Vacation club including one resale property for about $9K and the rest direct purchases from Marriott. In the very short 3 years our experience has really been poor in terms of value. We love our properties and have stayed in other Marriott's in NJ and Aruba and have always found them to be fantastic. The concern is the investment we made with Marriott vs others that purchased resale. When we purchased, resale was running at about 30% to 40% less. Since then, it looks like this gap has increased to more than 50% and it appears that many resales are simply passing ROFR at very low prices. We still had the benefit that our units also qualify for the Marriott rewards program and we have used that a few times taking advantage of the points to go on a cruise, etc.

Now we have the new points system introduced. For only $1,995 anyone that purchase resale can now trade their unit into the Marriott rewards program. This one benefit we had for paying 30%+ premium over purchasing resale (50%+ if you just purchased resale). So our additional purchase cost of about $16,500 ($64,000 - $9,000 (resale property)=$55,000 *30% = $16,500) we could have received the same benefit by signing up for the point system for only $1,995.

I'm very disappointed in Marriott for pushing this advantage in sales for years just to allow everyone else have that advantage we paid a lot of money for, for so little. I would have thought that a company like Marriott would have done more to protect the loyalty of their customers. In three short years I have seen time and again the let down by Marriott to keep our loyalty.
1. Reduced Marriott Rewards Points program for airfare and hotels
2. Seems to have suspended to diminished ROFR causing the delta between our purchase price and resale to increase
3. Started a points system that does not provide equal point value between unit traded in verses unit reserved by points
4. Little barrier of entry for non-Marriott direct purchasers to get into Marriott Rewards program for their units

The properties are fantastic but the program has continued to diminish in value at an alarming rate. I would ask that you please do a better job at making our Marriott Vacation Club experience a success not just at the resort but also in the way the program is administered. Simple ideas would be to give owners that bought directly from Marriott a 30% increase in point allotments each year to match the additional initial purchase they paid, or to grant one time bonuses of points and give them a higher priority for reserving units. Some value more than pay us $1,995 and now everyone is equal in the eyes of Marriott.

I look forward to hearing your ideas on value and how our loyalty to Marriott has been rewarded. Perhaps I'm missing something and we are not taking full advantage of what we purchased. Thank you.

Sincerely,
XXXXXXX

Excellent letter.

natiro · Jun 23, 2010

Re: letter to Marriott

I have been composing a letter to Marriott regarding my concerns about the new system. I am very disappointed that external purchasers will now be able to trade their unit for rewards points just by enrolling in the new points program and paying a maximum of $1,995. Whether or not you believe the rewards points are a good value or not, it was one of the biggest selling points that Marriott sales focused on to convince potential purchasers that buying directly from Marriott was far more beneficial than purchasing externally.

Is there a place where I can find contact information (names and addresses) that I can use to route my letter appropriately? I'm fine posting an open letter once I've finished it, but I would also like to target specific people at corporate. Thanks.

Open Letter to Marriott

GregT

TUG Member

GregT

TUG Member

BocaBoy

zcrider

Tug Review Crew: Rookie

Asia2000

DanCali

windje2000

Dave M

BocaBoy

RedDogSD

brigechols

MikeZ

potchak

kmij

SueDonJ

brigechols

SueDonJ

brigechols

SueDonJ

brigechols

aka Julie

Latravel

aka Julie

Latravel

natiro