Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}

saturn28 said:

Why not deposit your week in II then you can use that week to make a reservation the following year at your home resort. You have that option as long as you are a weeks owner. In addition, your exchange fee to do that is included in the new club fee of $165. The point is you don't have to exchange your week for points if it isn't to your advantage to do it.

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You assume that inventory will be available through II at your home resort for the week you need. Marriott will be siphoning off prime II inventory to put into points inventory and depositing shoulder weeks leaving weeks owners fighting for less and less good inventory.

tombo said:

You assume that inventory will be available through II at your home resort for the week you need. Marriott will be siphoning off prime II inventory to put into points inventory and depositing shoulder weeks leaving weeks owners fighting for less and less inventory.

Click to expand...

First there are going to be 2 different weeks II accounts. One for those week members that don't join the points system and one for the weeks owners that due join the points system. Marriott has said just like in the past II will confirm reservations on a first come first serve basis. So, that is what they do now. I don't see how anything will change. A week deposited into II will go to those weeks owners trading through II. The weeks that weeks owners convert into points will be available to points owners to reserve.

tombo said:

Many were scratching their heads wondering why DVC left II. Perhaps they had advance warning from their previous employee who helped Marriott design the points program that in the near future DVC members wouldn't be able to exchange for Marriott weeks. Without Marriott inventory II is much less attractive to DVC members.

Forget DVC access to Marriott inventory through II, with the upcoming changes even Marriott owners who don't convert to points will have limited access to Marriott inventory through II. Weeks owners exchanging access is being severelly limited because of the new points program, II's access to prime inventory is history, and DVC exchanges are gone to all Marriott owners and/or points members. Without DVC and with limited Marriott access, II might become a historical event.

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It's amazing where the mind will bring you.

In truth, DVC left II for one primary reason, money. RCI incented DVC to abandon II by offering DVC substantial financial incentives (as much as I dislike RCI, you have to give RCI credit for making this play with money. DVC's affiliation with RCI clearly bolstered the RCI network, and has enabled all of the other RCI-affiliated resorts who are trying to sell their ownership proposition. to tout RCI' s affiliation with DVC. If I were an RCI-affilated developer, I'd be qute pleased by that). Club Intrawest - - a points based model built by the architects of DVC did the exam same thing, they left II several years prior.

Frisbeeace said:

The points system will not work for me as my 3 Sabal Palms weeks are weak traders BUT since I usually trade them for MR points, then my annual fees would go down if I join, so I am tempted to give it a thought anyways. However, if the trade-for-MR points option worsens due to new devaluations, and I'm left with the only option of exchanging through II, then I might get trapped in the system forever paying more... anyone in a similar situation?

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I agree and know right where you are coming from...

I posted this earlier but this thread is moving very fast....

Been avoiding the speculation but now that real info is out....

My first impressions:

This favors the big owners and not single week owners.

I have one week at Sabal which comes in at 1675...
I am not willing to buy more and increase my maintenance fees...
Beyond the initial payment, the single fee saves me money in years I trade for Reward Points. If I trade to II, I lose money. So on average, it looks like a break even.

So the only real cost (you retain all older choices) is the $600 up front.
The only real gain is access to the newer resorts... for fewer days and smaller units.

I am on the fence... but leaning to doing it for access to the newer resorts.

I would appreciate any insight or thought on what I may be missing.

The one thing I see clearly is that I can never recommend the Marriott system to anyone again. The new Lakeshore Reserve 1bdrm in the slowest season is about twice the points of what my Sabal 2bdrm in mid demand season gets. Sabal is on the grounds (and includes all amenities) of the World Center. Lakeshore Reserve is the same with the JW and RitzCarlton. The only real reason a larger unit in a better season is lower is the age of the resort. If Marriott is doing this now, than even if you have a week worth 4000 points today.... the new resorts in the same area are going to be 5000, 6000, 7000...... Your points purchasing power will drop with each new resort. I can't recommend a system like that.

Thoughts?

Pete

saturn28 said:

Why not deposit your week in II then you can use that week to make a reservation the following year at your home resort. You have that option as long as you are a weeks owner. In addition, your exchange fee to do that is included in the new club fee of $165. The point is you don't have to exchange your week for points if it isn't to your advantage to do it.

Click to expand...

tombo said:

You assume that inventory will be available through II at your home resort for the week you need. Marriott will be siphoning off prime II inventory to put into points inventory and depositing shoulder weeks leaving weeks owners fighting for less and less good inventory.

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Agreed.....This would be a total crap shoot, and one that I shouldn't have to take when trying to book my home week. What good is it if I have to go through II to try and book a 2nd week at my home resort? It's crazy, IMO.

tombo said:

You assume that inventory will be available through II at your home resort for the week you need. Marriott will be siphoning off prime II inventory to put into points inventory and depositing shoulder weeks leaving weeks owners fighting for less and less good inventory.

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How do you know that? How can you make such an equivocal statement as a non-Agent of Marriott? Are you assuming that because Starwood has done that that Marriott will do the same?

jimf41 said:

It's getting late and I'm getting tired of reading so I stopped about halfway through. I'm a little disappointed at some of the info put out so far by so called "tug experts". I'll dispel some of the inaccuracies I've found so far.

1. New yorkers can join. I confirmed this by telephone and by getting through to the enroll site ( thanks for whomever gave the tip about using FireFox) where all my weeks were listed with their accompanying point value. The point values the rep gave were exactly the same as on the website.

2. Frenchman's Cove and St Kitts can join.

3. Points can be banked for longer than one year. I'm not sure how long but longer than your usage year.

4. A lot of folks are saying they can't book what they have because the point value of their week is less than the week requires in the point system. This is true sometimes but not always and I don't think even most of the time. I suspect this will be more prevalent to a one week owner who falls into a shortfall point given vrs point required situation. I added up all my points, 24775. then I added up what is required to book the weeks that I usually book, 25475. 700 point minus but that's if I deposit all my weeks as points. Half of that 700 point deficit comes from depositing my MFC Pres fixed week. I would never do that on a year I want to use it so my real deficit is 350 points. Not good but not the disaster some are alluding to. On 3 of my Ocean point weeks I actually have a point surplus.

5. This one really irks me. Marriott did not give the shaft to their developer purchasers. What they did was to grandfather in at a slightly higher cost all of their loyal owners who purchased resale. I'm glad they finally did that as those resale buyers don't have to walk around the resort with that big red "R" on their foreheads anymore. It was scaring my grandkids. I'm hopeful that will allow something for future resale buyers but at this time that does not appear likely.

I haven't decided yet what I'm going to do. The point allocations both given and required are a benefit to me but what scares me is that might change and I'd be on the losing side instead of the winning side as I am now. It's been an interesting day. Goodnight all.

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Assuming all you say is true - here is the BIG problem.

There is no guarantee that point values will not change. When you bought your weeks, would you have bought if they told you -- right now you get 7 days in a 2 bedroom - but we could change it -- you might only get 6 days - or maybe 7 days in a 1 bedroom? That's what this new system can and will probably do.

saturn28 said:

First there are going to be 2 different weeks II accounts. One for those week members that don't join the points system and one for the weeks owners that due join the points system. Marriott has said just like in the past II will confirm reservations on a first come first serve basis. So, that is what they do now. I don't see how anything will change. A week deposited into II will go to those weeks owners trading through II. The weeks that weeks owners convert into points will be available to points owners to reserve.

Click to expand...

According to many posts here Marriott will be able to raid weeks inventory deposited with II. Some here can post the related Marriott wording allowing them to do so, or you can scroll back a couple of pages and find posts stating the specifics.

EducatedConsumer said:

How do you know that? How can you make such an equivocal statement as a non-Agent of Marriott? Are you assuming that because Starwood has done that that Marriott will do the same?

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It doesn't even matter, IMO.....Why should I need to go into II and take my chances on getting a second week, same check-in date for my home resort? I should be able to book that directly from Marriott, and not have to take my chances with II. Even if I were able to get the same week, it might take months to do so, and it would most likely mean higher plane fares, and uncertainty in planning ahead.

good morning....

I expressed those very concerns to my MCVD "guru". I was told the system is "Disneyesque" In the fact that the total points PER RESORT remain constant. If points go up for one week or day, they must go down for another...

Of course, new resorts will cost more points.

I did ask if the points needed to snag a unit increase, does the points allocaion to the legacy owners that have these seasos increase as well??

The answer was an unequivocal "not on your life" and "are you serious?"

EducatedConsumer said:

It's amazing where the mind will bring you.

In truth, DVC left II for one primary reason, money. RCI incented DVC to abandon II by offering DVC substantial financial incentives (as much as I dislike RCI, you have to give RCI credit for making this play with money. DVC's affiliation with RCI clearly bolstered the RCI network, and has enabled all of the other RCI-affiliated resorts who are trying to sell their ownership proposition. to tout RCI' s affiliation with DVC. If I were an RCI-affilated developer, I'd be qute pleased by that). Club Intrawest - - a points based model built by the architects of DVC did the exam same thing, they left II several years prior.

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I made the post as a tongue in cheek post. I would never think that a huge company like DVC would base such a big decision on what Marriott was going to do. Sorry you missed the sarcasm.

EducatedConsumer said:

How do you know that? How can you make such an equivocal statement as a non-Agent of Marriott? Are you assuming that because Starwood has done that that Marriott will do the same?

Click to expand...

Marriott has profit to be made off of supplying the best inventory to points members making their new program successful by word of mouth from those who converted. Marriott has zero financial incentive to make sure that weeks owners get prime exchanges, in fact they have financial disencentives because if weeks owners are happy with their II exchanges they will not pay to convert. If weeks owner's trades are poor and limited they might pay Marriott to become points members. All Marriott sales and all new resorts will be based on points, so Marriott has based the future of their entire timeshares sales division on points being a success, and they don't have any incentive to makes sure weeks owners are happy and get good trades. CEO's and top mgt have their reputations and possibly careers tied to the success of the points program they invented and implemented. All financial and non financial incentives for Marriott favor points over weeks, and they like any company will focus on what is most profitable for the company. Any CEO will also do what is best for their company's bottom line or they will quickly become a "non agent of Marriott" too.

By the way, are we back to this again? Earlier in this thread before the program was launched you used the same quote about statements made by non agents of Marriott after which I said using your own criteria you are either an agent of Marriott, or your postulations and posts are ALSO simply more statements of fact that can't be proven posted by a non agent of Marriott.

Please use the same standards for your posts that you love to place on others rather than the double standard where your posts and theories are correct and others are mistatements made by non agents. You apparently love Marriott, defended them with your "facts" before the program was rolled out, and you are back defending them again. Feel free to defend your employer (my guess by a non agent), but read the posts and realize that you are in the minority. Most here feel that the new program is bad for owners, including many who supported Marriott before the program's details were announced.

Marriott's annoucement in news media

Here is a link to an article today regarding Marriott's new program:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/marriott-vacation-club-introduces-new-vacation-ownership-program-2010-06-21?reflink=MW_news_stmp

I'm headed to work, wondering how many posts will be here by tonight ...

Confused about club dues

I'm sorry but I'm a little confused about the club dues. Are these dues mandatory every year after enrolling even if you decided not to exchange your week into point for that given year? So in other words, it will cost me an extra $165-199 extra by enrolling into this new program regardless of usage?

I bought a week at Grande Vista from Marriott.

I have two questions

First, let's say I enroll in the new program and purchase an additional 1,000 points. Are those two accounts now linked or can I sell them separately? Because if they're linked and I have to sell them together, the new buyer must pay at least $2,000 to buy into the program. That would make it more difficult to sell Grande Vista.

Second, if I can sell them separately, I believe that the new buyer of my Grande Vista time share would have the option to stay within the old system, even though I joined the new program. Am I correct in that assumption?

For some reason I can't get into this thread with my normal TUG name. I am the poster formerly know as Siberiavol.

I liked the old system. I was able to do get a lot of good trades from silver into platinum. I have a 600 point week under the new system that got me a 4325 week in the new system through a trade with II for this January. That will never happen again.

The issue for all of us going forward is not what we used to be able to do but what is the best option going forward. Do you stay where you are with II and the old system or spend the dollars to get in the new program.

If I thought II would have the same opportunities it had before, I would do nothing. I don't think they will and therefore the best deals available for THE WAY I USE TIMESHARES will probably be the Sunday through Thursday opportunities and off season weeks in new program.

The key question is HOW DO YOU USE TIMESHARE. I don't need the presidents day week at Ocean Pointe. January is fine . Off seasons are OK. Each of us has an entirely different situation.

Before I retired I was a commission salesman. At one point my company cut my percentage. I was very mad but figured out at some point my decision was to stay with a "poorer deal" or change companies. I had to quit blaming them and make the best decision for me. It might not have been fair but it was legal. It changed the way I felt about them for sure. My view of Marriott was changed when they changed the rewards program. This new program was better than I expected

This program seems like a "poorer deal " than the old one but I will join because I think the entry fee is relatively low and as a multiple week owner I think I can use it in some new ways that will enable me to have some ten day trips and four day trips which were not possible before. Also I think I can access some newer resorts for a few days from time to time which I have not been able to get through II.

I have another question on the issue of rentals of less than one week. It was asked before, but I don't know whether it was answered.

There is clearly an increase in maintenance costs to service short term rentals. Is that being passed on to the Homeowners Association? That means that the Homeowners Association is subsidizing Marriott's rental program without adequate compensation. I don't know whether that has always been the case.

tombo said:

Marriott has profit to be made off of supplying the best inventory to points members making their new program successful by word of mouth from those who converted. Marriott has zero financial incentive to make sure that weeks owners get prime exchanges, in fact they have financial disencentives because if weeks owners are happy with their II exchanges they will not pay to convert. If weeks owner's trades are poor and limited they might pay Marriott to become points members. All Marriott sales and all new resorts will be based on points, so Marriott has based the future of their entire timeshares sales division on points being a success, and they don't have any incentive to makes sure weeks owners are happy and get good trades. All financial and non financial incentives for Marriott favor points over weeks, and they like any company will do what is best for their bottom line.

By the way, are we back to this again? Earlier in this thread before the program was launched you used the same quote about statements made by non agents of Marriott after which I said using your own criteria you are either an agent of Marriott, or your postulations and posts are ALSO simply more statements of fact that can't be proven posted by a non agent of Marriott.

Please use the same standards for your posts that you love to place on others rather than the double standard where your posts and theories are correct and others are mistatements made by non agents. You apparently love Marriott, defended them with your "facts" before the program was rolled out, and you are back defending them again. Feel free to defend your employer (my guess by a non agent), but read the posts and realize that you are in the minority. Most here feel that the new program is bad for owners, including many who supported Marriott before the program's details were announced.

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Employee of Marriott, hardly. I'm off to my real job in academic behavioral medicine. And yes, we are nearly one year into an analysis of the behaviors and writings of participants in forums such as this one.

While not an employee of Marriott, I am a loyal Marriott guest of more than 40 years, a multiple week MVCI owner of 25 years, and a former HOA Board Member. From those vantage points, I developed an appreciation for Marriott's conviction to their customers, and some of the rhetoric posted on these boards. I'll leave to our research, grounded in science (and peer review), additional conclusions. One thing I will defend are pot shots at Marriott (or any other well-intentioned company for that matter). I continue to be mind boggled by the pot shots and comments based on anything other than fact herein, oddly from some who continue to do business with Marriott. I am reminded of an abusive spousal relationship where one of the two partners (the abusee) can't exit that relationship, but should.

While there's a place for critical thinking in all organizations, there's an important distinction between critical thinkers who have as their goal influencing a favorable outcome, versus impaired thinkers who sling mud around and offer no constructive remedy.

PS I should point out that I do not perceive everything that Marriott does as roses. Disappointed by the continued degradation of the Marriott Rewards program, and culminating with the exclusion of American Airlines as a partner, I accepted a tier status match with both Starwood and Hyatt, and over the next year I'll determine which of the three will earn my business and brand loyalty. In the interim, the Marriott Rewards program lost that business.

Sorry for posting consecutive questions, but I think they are easier to answer.

I have a week at Grande Vista. If I join the program and then opt to trade within Interval International, do I still have to reserve a specific week for me to trade or do I just trade in my 2,775 points or do I have a choice on that.

If I join the new program and try to get an exchange through interval, does my week stay with Marriott under the new program, or does it get deposited directly with interval.

[Message deleted. You may disagree with the content of a post, but you may not attack the poster. Please read the "Be Courteous" section of the Posting Rules (located on the blue bar near the top of the page. Dave M, BBS Moderator]

Everybody's situation is different.
Here is what I will probably do.
As someone who is used to a point system since I own DVC I will probably join the new Marriott system.
I own a resale week at the old hotel MOC and I would qualify for approx 5800 points which will get me into practically any other property during the time that I like to vacation.
This comes with a fee of approx 1500 dollors plus the annual fee.
I am happy that Marriott included me as a resale owner and also as a EOY owner and feel that the 1500 dollors plus the annual membership is well worth it to me to have the increased flexibility to go to the other Marriott resorts in the system since I would probably only want to do internal trades to other Marriotts just like I do internal trades only to Disney.
I know that the pools of inventory may not be there when I request a trade and I know that year to year the points may change and could go up as could the fees but that is the same to a certain extent with my DVC membership and this is a risk I am willing to take.
That's my opinion.
I thank all of you fellow tuggers for all of yours.

puckmanfl said:

good morning....

I expressed those very concerns to my MCVD "guru". I was told the system is "Disneyesque" In the fact that the total points PER RESORT remain constant. If points go up for one week or day, they must go down for another...

Of course, new resorts will cost more points.

I did ask if the points needed to snag a unit increase, does the points allocaion to the legacy owners that have these seasos increase as well??

The answer was an unequivocal "not on your life" and "are you serious?"

Click to expand...

If this statement is correct, then this new Marriott program is somewhat Disneyesque. Do you know if Marriott has legally committed themselves (as Disney had done) to never changing the points total at any given resort? Or is this just another one of those instances in which one is told how a program "will" work only to find out later that there is no obligation for it to actually work that way ("all you bought was the ability to use your deeded week, nothing more, the points program was always an 'enhancement' subject to change"). I suspect the latter will be true because no one has reported any verbage committing Marriott to anything, as best I can tell.

The part about your week's value not increasing over time whereas new resorts "cost" more points is exactly how Disney works, however. Disney relies on building new, more expensive resorts as a driving force behind the sale of new points, which seems fair enough. You build a new resort in Hawaii and maybe thats worth enough to me to get me to buy some more points.

Also be aware that in Disney's system, if a week at your resort "costs" around 250 points to reserve and you decide to buy 250 points that means you have 250 points to spend elsewhere in the DVC system. Marriott's system version is "your week at AKL costs 250 points, you can book that or take a 225 point credit to go book at another DVC resort." Significant difference.

I have a feeling that similarity to DVC is going to be a sales tactic. And people should be aware that Disney has committed itself legally to some pretty stringent rules governing its system. As best I can tell Marriott has not.

H

hipslo said:

I was told over the phone today that there are NOT two pools, there is only a single pool, though the number of reservations out of that pool available to points is limited. Which means there is no week by week allocation between weeks and points.

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There MUST be two pools.

Inventory segregation is not a matter that can be resolved by the governing documents where there are multiple owner classes.
It's the law in most jurisdictions.

For example, the Hawaii statutes below are clear (courtesy of Tugger, jerseygirl).
Although phrased differently in California and Florida the outcome is the very similar.

One-to-one use-right to use-night requirement. (a) A developer shall not offer or dispose of a time share unit or a time share interest unless the one-to-one use-right to use-night requirement is currently satisfied and will continue to be satisfied for the duration of the time share plan.

(b)The time share instruments shall contain provisions assuring satisfaction of the one-to-one use-right to use-night requirement for the duration of the time share plan except during temporary periods of noncompliance due to casualty or condemnation.

(c)The following criteria shall be considered in determining whether the one-to-one use-right to use-night requirement is satisfied:

(1)If the time share plan has more than one class of time share interest, then the requirement must be satisfied within each class;

(2)Only use nights available and protected from blanket liens for the duration of the time share plan shall be counted; provided that if time share interests are classified by duration, then as to each class, only use nights available and protected from blanket liens for the entire duration of that class shall be counted;

(3)A use night counted to satisfy the requirement for one class may not also be counted to satisfy the requirement for a competing class;

(4)No individual time share unit may be counted as providing more than three hundred sixty-five use nights per calendar year (or more than three hundred sixty-six use nights per leap year);

(5)The use rights of each owner shall be counted without regard to whether the owner's use rights have been suspended for failure to pay assessments or otherwise. Use rights attributable to unsold time share interests shall be counted;

(6)Use rights of nonowners shall be counted. Use rights of the developer and its affiliates in excess of those attributable to unsold time share interests shall be counted;

(7)Use nights reserved by the association or plan manager for the purpose of performing maintenance and repairs to a time share unit shall not be considered;

(8)Use rights borrowed from a subsequent year or carried over from a prior year shall not be considered; provided that such practice is not established for the purpose of evading the requirements of this section; and provided further that any such acceleration or deferral of use rights is appropriately balanced and restricted; and

(9)The director may adopt rules identifying additional criteria to be used to calculate whether the one-to-one use-right to use-night requirement is satisfied.

(d)This section shall not be deemed to prohibit the time share instruments from including provisions permitting rental by the association or the developer, or reservation and use by owners, of use nights which remain unreserved as of sixty or fewer days in advance of the use night. Any such use rights shall not be considered in determining whether the one-to-one use-right to use-night requirement is satisfied.

The statute can be accessed here

Bottom line is Marriott is not going to violate real estate law. It simply is not credible. It would sink the ship before leaving the dock.

I am not a Marriott basher but I could become one . .

I love my Marriott timeshares and the concept and I have never had a bad experience with Marriott. I have a great VOA (I emailed him and we decided to discuss this in a few weeks after the dust settlesLOL). But, as an attorney, and someone who understands the basics of a fair contract here is what really disturbs me and I will put it in layman's terms without the risk of offending all you super smart people on TUG.

A fair contract is a simple exchange of promises - each side relies on the other's promise and the value of each promise is considered before the deal is made. Most contracts do not allow any change in the nature of the promises without agreement by BOTH sides, in writing. It is as simple as that. Contracts 101 as they say.

SHow this new plan to your attorney. Most competent attorneys would advise against. The only promise that has to be kept is that of the Marriott owner who buys in. Marriott can change anything at will. I cannot understand how anyone would do this -- even it if looks good right now as it may for some. YOu have no guarantees about what will happen down the road.

I pity the many uninformed who go to those presentations now. They do not have the wisdom of those here on TUG and they will be clueless about what questions to ask.

Antny said:

I'm sorry but I'm a little confused about the club dues. Are these dues mandatory every year after enrolling even if you decided not to exchange your week into point for that given year? So in other words, it will cost me an extra $165-199 extra by enrolling into this new program regardless of usage?

Click to expand...

Yes, you pay the dues every year.