Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

davidvel · Jun 9, 2010

DanCali said:
Not to take Marriott's side on this but if Marriott does book at 9am before everyone else why is that an unfair advantage? Anyone can write a Java application that logs into the website at 9am EST at 12 months out and makes a reservation on their behalf... I haven't seen a rule against it. It'd be quite useful for those on the West coast!

If "anyone" could write a java app (or the app was provided to every owner) I'd agree with you. :crash:

rsackett · Jun 9, 2010

This has been a very entertaining thread!

I am not upset or worried about the "BIG" change coming. I will continue to keep my two weeks and I will not turn them over to anybody else. I will use my weeks when I want to. I will rent my weeks out if I ever want to. If Marriott decided to stop the Marriott only preference period in II, I will continue to trade, most likely in II but if they do not get the job done I will try one of the other trading companies, or work out direct trades. If resale value drops I will not like it, heck my Manor Club has already dropped a bunch since I bought, I don’t like that either, I can still feed my kids and pay my mortgage.

My life will not be turned up-side-down my any announcement. Who knows, maybe it will be something I like; I know it will not be anything that I can’t deal with. I have enough stress in my life without getting stressed out about my vacation time!

Ray

davidvel · Jun 9, 2010

rsackett said:
This has been a very entertaining thread!

I am not upset or worried about the "BIG" change coming. I will continue to keep my two weeks and I will not turn them over to anybody else. I will use my weeks when I want to. I will rent my weeks out if I ever want to. If Marriott decided to stop the Marriott only preference period in II, I will continue to trade, most likely in II but if they do not get the job done I will try one of the other trading companies, or work out direct trades. If resale value drops I will not like it, heck my Manor Club has already dropped a bunch since I bought, I don’t like that either, I can still feed my kids and pay my mortgage.

My life will not be turned up-side-down my any announcement. Who knows, maybe it will be something I like; I know it will not be anything that I can’t deal with. I have enough stress in my life without getting stressed out about my vacation time!

Ray

Brilliant! The thread should now be closed!

GaryDouglas · Jun 9, 2010

This is the survey that was circulated by Marriott in Nov of '08, although it might be incomplete. Maybe this was a preview of things to come that we didn't fully appreciate at the time...

GaryDouglas said:
Marriott Vacation Club is considering the introduction of a new usage option for its current Owners focused on enhancing the flexibility of the current product. Today an Owner buys a deeded week which he/she can use in weekly increments at either his/her Home Resort, trade for other resorts within the Marriott system, access an Interval International affiliated resort or trade for Marriott Rewards points.
The future use options may enable the Owner to break up his/her week into smaller increments of 3 or more nights (possibly even nightly increments) including weekend stays, check-in any day of the week or bank/borrow parts or all of his/her week in the future to stay at a Marriott Vacation Club resort. All this added flexibility is enabled through a points based exchange program referred to in the following questions as the Vacation Points Exchange Program.
If choosing to enroll, the Owner may either receive Vacation Points for a short-term period (such as up to three years) or in perpetuity (indefinitely). Each year, an annual allotment of Vacation Points would be credited to the Owner for use. The plan is considering the administration of all exchanges (internal within the Marriott Vacation Club system, external to affiliated Interval International resort, trades for Marriott Rewards Points) within the Marriott Vacation Club system to be managed through Marriott Vacation Club instead of Interval International. If an Owner chooses NOT to enroll, he/she would continue to use his/her vacation ownership just like today.
In the future, if enrolling into the Vacation Points Exchange Program, an Owner might take several trips of different durations to different Marriott Vacation Club resorts within a year. Or he/she might take one trip and bank the remainder of his Vacation Points balance for the next year use. Or he/she might take a trip of 5 nights to a highly demanded resort during peak season. The new flexibility of the program would enable the Owner to customize his/her vacation according to his/her preferences, enabling many different possibilities to vacation with Marriott Vacation Club.
An Owner could participate in the Vacation Points Exchange Program by enrolling one or more of their current weeks. Based on the unit type and season, they would receive an annual allocation of Vacation Points, which are then available for use. At the end of each year, your unused Vacation Points would either be 'banked' into the next year or expire and you would receive your next annual allocation of Vacation Points.
Weeks which are in high demand (demand is based on following factors: resort owned, week owned, view owned) will be worth more Vacation Points than those weeks which are in less demand. Future vacation options would be evaluated based on the same criteria. For example, Ski Season in Park City, UT would require more Vacation Points than Hilton Head during the winter. It is therefore possible that when trading in your week you might not have enough Vacation Points available to access a particular resort at the time of year you desire. In that case you would have the option of banking and borrowing or purchasing more Vacation Points. Conversely, if you have a highly demanded week you might have more than enough Vacation Points to access the resort of your choosing and could use the remaining Vacation Points for another trip.
For example, assume you own a 2-bedroom Villa during Platinum season, and you're given an annual allocation of 28,900 Vacation Points. The following are four hypothetical scenarios of how you could use your 28,900 Vacation Points in the future:
Option 1 - Minimal change, use your full points for a full week at a resort you desire
· Go to Myrtle Beach during Platinum season and stay in a 2-bedroom villa for 7 nights.
Option 2 - Change the number of bedroom and access a more highly demanded resort during peak season
· Go to the Caribbean to stay at a 1 bedroom during Platinum season for 7 nights
Option 3 - Change the number of days and season when you travel and turn 7 days into 14 days
· Go to Las Vegas to stay at a 1-bedroom during Platinum Season for a weekend (2 nights), AND go to Mountain Region resort to stay at a 2-bedroom during Silver Season for 7 nights AND go to Orlando to stay at a 2-bedroom during Gold Season for 5 weekday night
Option 4 - Bank one year of Vacation Points to go to Hawaii
· Through banking one year of Points, you will have 57,800 Points
· Go to Hawaii for a 2-bedroom during Platinum Season for 7 nights and still have 9,000 Vacation Points to bank to the following year
Today, you trade your week hoping to be confirmed into a high demand destination. In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, your current week may not provide you with the annual Vacation Points required to access a 2-bedroom villa at/during a high-demand destination or week, but you would know the required Vacation Points needed to access the high demand destination prior to making the reservation.

What do you think about the concept that in the new program not all weeks equal the same number of Vacation Points?
Consolidated Service Fee
In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, fees that are currently paid on a per transaction basis may be consolidated (with the exception of maintenance fees). For example, currently Owners pay the following fees (depending on usage) when using their week.

Reservation change fee
$29
Lock-off Use
$75
Split-week Use
$75
Interval International Annual Membership Fee
$64
Interval International Internal Exchange Fee
$99
Domestic Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
$104
International Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
$124
Interval International External Exchange Fee Domestic
$139
Interval International External Exchange Fee International
$154

In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, there may be an annual fee of $159 which may include these and other transaction fees currently paid on a per transaction basis.
All internal reservations to Marriott Vacation Club resorts may be managed through Marriott Vacation Club. You would no longer use Interval International to trade to another Marriott Vacation Club resort. Trading to a resort outside of the Marriott Vacation Club system would still require the use of Interval International, but this may be managed through Marriott Vacation Club.
How appealing do you rate the concept of an annual Consolidated Service Fee?
Reservation Window - The reservation window is the period during which you are able to make a reservation for varying lengths of stay. Currently you can book either 13 or 12 months before your arrival date depending on the number of weeks you own. Please assume at the time of reservation you have enough Vacation Points available to make that reservation. Marriott Vacation Club is considering setting the reservation window as follows:
· Reservations can be made 12 months before date of occupancy, with a requirement to make reservations of 7 nights or more
· At 6 months before date of occupancy reservations can be booked for 3 nights or more
· At 1 month before date of occupancy, reservations can be booked in nightly increments
Any Day Check-In - As part of the new Vacation Points Exchange Program, Marriott Vacation Club is considering offering Any Day Check-In. In other words, you would be allowed to check in on any day of the week, not just on weekends as it is today.
Weekend Stays - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program, Marriott Vacation Club is considering offering Weekend stays. You would check in on a Friday or Saturday and check out on Sunday or Monday.
Enrollment Period – If you chose to enroll in the Vacation Points Exchange Program, it might be for a three year period. After three years you would have the choice to auto-enroll (no action required) your week(s) or return to the current program (opting out). How desirable would a three year term be?
Home Resort Guarantee - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program an option may be offered to retain the home resort priority you currently have with your week. A new option may be offered in addition to, or in place of your home resort priority that would guarantee a fixed week at the resort where you currently own for a period of 3 years. This option would be limited to a specific percentage of villas for each week of the year.
Preferred Resort Priority - Instead of a Home Resort Guarantee, what if you had priority access to a group of similar resorts (such as beach locations, golf resorts etc) for a period of time? For example, if you could specify that for the next three years you would have priority access to any property within the Marriott Vacation Club system that has direct beach access. Similarly, what if you could pick the three specific resorts within the Marriott Vacation Club system you want to stay at for the next three years and have a priority access to those resorts?
Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of $3750 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?
To recap, the main elements of the Vacation Points Exchange Program include the following:
· Consolidated Service Fee
· All internal exchanges managed by Marriott Vacation Club
· Reservation Window (ability to make the reservation at the point most convenient to you)
· Any Day Check-In
· Weekend Stays
· Home Resort Guarantee
· Preferred Resort Priority
· Banking/Borrowing
· Variable length of vacation
· Flexible number of bedrooms
Potential Membership Levels – Marriott Vacation Club is considering introducing a tiered loyalty program where Owners would gain access to specific benefits in reward for their loyalty.
If Marriott implements the above described Vacation Points Exchange Program, new properties may be sold within this program. Rather than selling a deeded week, Marriott would be offering a certain amount of Vacation Points for sale. These Vacation Points could then be used in the same way as you would use your Vacation Points if you enroll your week.

scrapngen · Jun 9, 2010

PerryM said:
Absolutely correct!

You know what's going to be a kick in the head- all those Marriott owners too stupid to get a lawyer to review their original sales documents are going to do the same damn thing all over again as they sign away their weeks into the new system.

So how do you feel sorry for 95% of the folks being that stupid?

I'm not trying to be holier than thou since I'm in that 95% camp but honestly folks what's wrong with us?

Oh, to be a fly on the wall when Perry talks to a saleman

after the possible changes come rolling out. Hopefully, for their sake, they'll have gone through this thread with a fine-tooth comb and have quite the spin for him, as opposed to all other TUGGER's, as opposed to other Marriott owners. :hysterical: :hysterical:

OK, while I see you, Perry, as the ultimate gloom and doomer - maybe just for fun, maybe for real - you have certainly led the charge to get everyone disecting potential scenarios and pitfalls. I see that as sometimes irritating when it goes too far down the "horrible, horrible Marriott," but also helpful when it suggests something either not thought of or not fully considered. And then all the collective minds full of years of info cross-examine said scenario, sometimes adding more. While we won't be able to "see" all of these potential downsides even if we are able to read the fine print - due to the nature and speculation about how Marriott will handle its own weeks, point weeks, non-point weeks, dog weeks, etc. Pointer/setter weeks?, we may have a better idea of what we are presented with, than if we walked into it without having viewed this crazy thread. Or else we are more confused than ever? :rofl:

OTOH, I'm hopeful that Marriott has a reasonable change that they've taken a lot of time and energy working on. Yes, it will obviously have to benefit them, but if it also makes our TS's more flexible and comparable to other "good" point systems, rather than "bad" ones, then it might be the greatest thing since the invention of post-its and duct tape. Or not. I'll wait for the next thread and take some time before any more purchases. As a newbie who bought fixed weeks HI, I am supposedly the one who will jump quickest. But the idea of losing home resort and my specific weeks will be a hard sell unless it is some kind of overlay. (Which seems to be optimistic

)
Where I find it truly interesting is in any future additions to our weeks. - maybe buy some points, rather than "up"grade, or chance it that it will take a long time to see problems reserving and get a bargain week deed if resale drops significantly??

puckmanfl · Jun 9, 2010

good morning...

The survey model shown in the previous post actually looks reasonable. What could it hurt (besides a few $$$$) to give it a 3 year "shot"? AS an exchanger (mostly) with tons of flexibilty on travel time this could be right in my "wheelhouse". The mostly "use of home week" crowd might find this a bit risky and might "pass". The concept of the upgrading to "fixed week at home resort" and the "grouped resort priority" seem worth exploring. This time the attorney's will be inspecting the prospectus evaluating the "fine print"....

worst case scenario is that in in 3 years you are back at "square one"

I never realized how much those "nickle/dime" fees of exchanging really do add up. Perhaps this will be close to cost "nuetral". We shall see!!!

PerryM · Jun 9, 2010

Sorry, SOL is SOL....

DanCali said:
Not to take Marriott's side on this but if Marriott does book at 9am before everyone else why is that an unfair advantage? Anyone can write a Java application that logs into the website at 9am EST at 12 months out and makes a reservation on their behalf... I haven't seen a rule against it. It'd be quite useful for those on the West coast!

Now that's the attitude I've been looking for - bare-knuckle developer fight against the owners and guess who wins?

I don't know if Marriott wants to offer a concierge service where they stock the fridge with your order and its ready for you when you check in to a reservation that they did the same thing.

But let's say the Marriott lawyers put on the frown face and nix that idea - how about letting the Marriott owner in the new system fill out a form, a month in advance, to request a vacation, heck maybe even an alternative.

Then at 8:00 AM CST on the morning the computer knows is the right morning to place those requests all 10,000 are instantly dumped into the queue line that opens. I mean .0000000001 seconds after 8:00 AM.

The same thing happens - you, the non member are SOL.

Come on folks it's no longer owner fighting owner to get reservations it's mother hen Marriott against you and you don't stand a chance.

dougp26364 · Jun 9, 2010

PerryM said:
Now that's the attitude I've been looking for - bare-knuckle developer fight against the owners and guess who wins?

I don't know if Marriott wants to offer a concierge service where they stock the fridge with your order and its ready for you when you check in to a reservation that they did the same thing.

But let's say the Marriott lawyers put on the frown face and nix that idea - how about letting the Marriott owner in the new system fill out a form, a month in advance, to request a vacation, heck maybe even an alternative.

Then at 8:00 AM CST on the morning the computer knows is the right morning to place those requests all 10,000 are instantly dumped into the queue line that opens. I mean .0000000001 seconds after 8:00 AM.

The same thing happens - you, the non member are SOL.

Come on folks it's no longer owner fighting owner to get reservations it's mother hen Marriott against you and you don't stand a chance.

Once again I have to ask you, this happens in what other points based reservation system? Why can't Marriott do this now with their floating weeks system? All they have to do is have their computer application ready to reserve the best weeks available at the 13 month (they ARE mult. week owners aren't they?) and 12 month mark.

Come on Perry, your paranoia is overwhelming. It's NOT going to be that bad. The worst thing is that all your paranoid delusions aren't going to change the fact that the system will eventually change. There is no points system in timeshareland nearly as bad as what you continue to describe and all the major hotel developers have already gone to a points based internal reservations system.

GregT · Jun 9, 2010

GaryDouglas said:
Marriott Vacation Club is considering the introduction of a new usage option for its current Owners focused on enhancing the flexibility of the current product. Today an Owner buys a deeded week which he/she can use in weekly increments at either his/her Home Resort, trade for other resorts within the Marriott system, access an Interval International affiliated resort or trade for Marriott Rewards points.
The future use options may enable the Owner to break up his/her week into smaller increments of 3 or more nights (possibly even nightly increments) including weekend stays, check-in any day of the week or bank/borrow parts or all of his/her week in the future to stay at a Marriott Vacation Club resort. All this added flexibility is enabled through a points based exchange program referred to in the following questions as the Vacation Points Exchange Program.
If choosing to enroll, the Owner may either receive Vacation Points for a short-term period (such as up to three years) or in perpetuity (indefinitely). Each year, an annual allotment of Vacation Points would be credited to the Owner for use. The plan is considering the administration of all exchanges (internal within the Marriott Vacation Club system, external to affiliated Interval International resort, trades for Marriott Rewards Points) within the Marriott Vacation Club system to be managed through Marriott Vacation Club instead of Interval International. If an Owner chooses NOT to enroll, he/she would continue to use his/her vacation ownership just like today.
In the future, if enrolling into the Vacation Points Exchange Program, an Owner might take several trips of different durations to different Marriott Vacation Club resorts within a year. Or he/she might take one trip and bank the remainder of his Vacation Points balance for the next year use. Or he/she might take a trip of 5 nights to a highly demanded resort during peak season. The new flexibility of the program would enable the Owner to customize his/her vacation according to his/her preferences, enabling many different possibilities to vacation with Marriott Vacation Club.
An Owner could participate in the Vacation Points Exchange Program by enrolling one or more of their current weeks. Based on the unit type and season, they would receive an annual allocation of Vacation Points, which are then available for use. At the end of each year, your unused Vacation Points would either be 'banked' into the next year or expire and you would receive your next annual allocation of Vacation Points.
Weeks which are in high demand (demand is based on following factors: resort owned, week owned, view owned) will be worth more Vacation Points than those weeks which are in less demand. Future vacation options would be evaluated based on the same criteria. For example, Ski Season in Park City, UT would require more Vacation Points than Hilton Head during the winter. It is therefore possible that when trading in your week you might not have enough Vacation Points available to access a particular resort at the time of year you desire. In that case you would have the option of banking and borrowing or purchasing more Vacation Points. Conversely, if you have a highly demanded week you might have more than enough Vacation Points to access the resort of your choosing and could use the remaining Vacation Points for another trip.
For example, assume you own a 2-bedroom Villa during Platinum season, and you're given an annual allocation of 28,900 Vacation Points. The following are four hypothetical scenarios of how you could use your 28,900 Vacation Points in the future:
Option 1 - Minimal change, use your full points for a full week at a resort you desire
· Go to Myrtle Beach during Platinum season and stay in a 2-bedroom villa for 7 nights.
Option 2 - Change the number of bedroom and access a more highly demanded resort during peak season
· Go to the Caribbean to stay at a 1 bedroom during Platinum season for 7 nights
Option 3 - Change the number of days and season when you travel and turn 7 days into 14 days
· Go to Las Vegas to stay at a 1-bedroom during Platinum Season for a weekend (2 nights), AND go to Mountain Region resort to stay at a 2-bedroom during Silver Season for 7 nights AND go to Orlando to stay at a 2-bedroom during Gold Season for 5 weekday night
Option 4 - Bank one year of Vacation Points to go to Hawaii
· Through banking one year of Points, you will have 57,800 Points
· Go to Hawaii for a 2-bedroom during Platinum Season for 7 nights and still have 9,000 Vacation Points to bank to the following year
Today, you trade your week hoping to be confirmed into a high demand destination. In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, your current week may not provide you with the annual Vacation Points required to access a 2-bedroom villa at/during a high-demand destination or week, but you would know the required Vacation Points needed to access the high demand destination prior to making the reservation.

What do you think about the concept that in the new program not all weeks equal the same number of Vacation Points?
Consolidated Service Fee
In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, fees that are currently paid on a per transaction basis may be consolidated (with the exception of maintenance fees). For example, currently Owners pay the following fees (depending on usage) when using their week.

Reservation change fee
$29
Lock-off Use
$75
Split-week Use
$75
Interval International Annual Membership Fee
$64
Interval International Internal Exchange Fee
$99
Domestic Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
$104
International Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
$124
Interval International External Exchange Fee Domestic
$139
Interval International External Exchange Fee International
$154

In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, there may be an annual fee of $159 which may include these and other transaction fees currently paid on a per transaction basis.
All internal reservations to Marriott Vacation Club resorts may be managed through Marriott Vacation Club. You would no longer use Interval International to trade to another Marriott Vacation Club resort. Trading to a resort outside of the Marriott Vacation Club system would still require the use of Interval International, but this may be managed through Marriott Vacation Club.
How appealing do you rate the concept of an annual Consolidated Service Fee?
Reservation Window - The reservation window is the period during which you are able to make a reservation for varying lengths of stay. Currently you can book either 13 or 12 months before your arrival date depending on the number of weeks you own. Please assume at the time of reservation you have enough Vacation Points available to make that reservation. Marriott Vacation Club is considering setting the reservation window as follows:
· Reservations can be made 12 months before date of occupancy, with a requirement to make reservations of 7 nights or more
· At 6 months before date of occupancy reservations can be booked for 3 nights or more
· At 1 month before date of occupancy, reservations can be booked in nightly increments
Any Day Check-In - As part of the new Vacation Points Exchange Program, Marriott Vacation Club is considering offering Any Day Check-In. In other words, you would be allowed to check in on any day of the week, not just on weekends as it is today.
Weekend Stays - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program, Marriott Vacation Club is considering offering Weekend stays. You would check in on a Friday or Saturday and check out on Sunday or Monday.
Enrollment Period – If you chose to enroll in the Vacation Points Exchange Program, it might be for a three year period. After three years you would have the choice to auto-enroll (no action required) your week(s) or return to the current program (opting out). How desirable would a three year term be?
Home Resort Guarantee - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program an option may be offered to retain the home resort priority you currently have with your week. A new option may be offered in addition to, or in place of your home resort priority that would guarantee a fixed week at the resort where you currently own for a period of 3 years. This option would be limited to a specific percentage of villas for each week of the year.
Preferred Resort Priority - Instead of a Home Resort Guarantee, what if you had priority access to a group of similar resorts (such as beach locations, golf resorts etc) for a period of time? For example, if you could specify that for the next three years you would have priority access to any property within the Marriott Vacation Club system that has direct beach access. Similarly, what if you could pick the three specific resorts within the Marriott Vacation Club system you want to stay at for the next three years and have a priority access to those resorts?
Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of $3750 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?
To recap, the main elements of the Vacation Points Exchange Program include the following:
· Consolidated Service Fee
· All internal exchanges managed by Marriott Vacation Club
· Reservation Window (ability to make the reservation at the point most convenient to you)
· Any Day Check-In
· Weekend Stays
· Home Resort Guarantee
· Preferred Resort Priority
· Banking/Borrowing
· Variable length of vacation
· Flexible number of bedrooms
Potential Membership Levels – Marriott Vacation Club is considering introducing a tiered loyalty program where Owners would gain access to specific benefits in reward for their loyalty.
If Marriott implements the above described Vacation Points Exchange Program, new properties may be sold within this program. Rather than selling a deeded week, Marriott would be offering a certain amount of Vacation Points for sale. These Vacation Points could then be used in the same way as you would use your Vacation Points if you enroll your week.

If this is what a points program ends up looking like, it is consistent with much of what we've been saying:

1) Marriott's been thinking about this a long time
2) They've solicited the existing users to get their reaction
3) They're looking for ways to leverage their existing system
4) They've captured a number of desirable things from other point systems

The three year period concept is novel.

None of this precludes Perry's fear of Marriott's bad faith, ie, gaming the reservation system (if there is only one pool of inventory), being able to change the rules again down the road, and also building new resorts that have higher points allocation (like HGVC and Worldmark) that dilute the existing inventory for either all users (one inventory) or just points users (two inventories).

This was an excellent email to find and post. Thanks very much.

PerryM · Jun 9, 2010

Marriott and the finger....

dougp26364 said:
Once again I have to ask you, this happens in what other points based reservation system? Why can't Marriott do this now with their floating weeks system? All they have to do is have their computer application ready to reserve the best weeks available at the 13 month (they ARE mult. week owners aren't they?) and 12 month mark.

Come on Perry, your paranoia is overwhelming. It's NOT going to be that bad. The worst thing is that all your paranoid delusions aren't going to change the fact that the system will eventually change. There is no points system in timeshareland nearly as bad as what you continue to describe and all the major hotel developers have already gone to a points based internal reservations system.

Guys, we need to put on our thinking caps.

Up until next week Marriott could care less about reservations and exchanges. Their computers and human operators took your request and processed them at a leisurely pace since they had no bone in that fight.

They helped you with depositing that reservation into II and that's their end in the matter.

Starting next week reservations becomes a HUGE focus to Marriott - the ability to get a reservation, for their members, is a TOP priority.

So how do you make your members happy when the whole goal is a reservation? You allow your members to make reservations 14 months out instead of 13 months.

Platinum Members reserve 14 months out
Gold Members reserve 58 (13.5 months) weeks out
Silver Members reserve 13 months and 1 week out

So as a Platinum Member your vacationing calendar goes 14 months into the future - you see Week 52 at MountainSide is open and you click it to make a reservation. You got it!

How can this be you say?

Marriott can combine Week 51 in front of 52 and week 50 in front of that and the 50% inventory dedicated to 13 month reservations will ALWAYS be snapped up before a non-member can get in there. (Weeks 49-50-51-52 to get New Year's Week; these are other members' orders used to making chains; remember it can be week 49 at ANY Marriott in this chain) And, of course, 13 month reservations will be available to non-members on the web page so its all computerized an no phone call is needed anymore.

Then those Platinum members who didn't get filled 14 months out will have to wait until they get a notice, 2 months later, that they do have a reservation for week 52 at MountainSide.

How can this be you say?

12 months to the nanosecond Marriott took all the pre-orders and dumped them into the reservation system at 8:00:0000001 AM CST - while your index finger muscle was just beginning to click your mouse. This is the 12 month inventory which is 50% of the total units available for reservations that week.

I don't know if Marriott will introduce pre-reservations to VIP owners but I sure would. Doesn't violate any rule that I can think of.

P.S.
As to other developers I don't know their reservation system and if it is so easy to out maneuver as Marriott's.

Those of you content pulling out your deed and telling yourself Marriott can't touch it - you are right! The problem is you will never get your dream vacation outside the new system.

tombo · Jun 9, 2010

I have read this thread on and off with interest and fear of the upcoming changes stopped me from buying a Marriott platinum week for a steal recently. I ALMOST NEVER agree with Perry and we have had numerous heated debates on the merits of destination clubs and ROFR in the past, but I grudgingly admit that I am afraid that most of what he is saying is true. Yes Perry, bookmark this post, I agree with you.

If Marriott doesn't change the points program to where those who convert to points have huge advantages over those who don't convert, then Marriott won't be able to effectivelly market their points program. The translation to Marriott owners is if the points owners get advantages, the deeded owners will be at a DISADVANTAGE. That is the simple fact. Also Marriott will not want to have the best weeks deposited in II with weeks owners having frst shot at them, so they will probably force II to give Marriott Points members first shot with an earlier II booking window, or Marriott will simply raid the deposited weeks and put them in the inventory pool for the internal points exchanges. Once you deposit your week, you never know for sure where it went, who got it, or how they got it.

I own at 2 different resorts that decided that they could make a lot of money fleecing current deeded owners by starting points programs. They sell by telling you all the advantages of points and by threatening that deeded weeks will become worthless if an owner doesn't pony up $1000's to become points members. The fact of the matter is that a 3 day weekend on the beach in the summer never is available no matter what they tell you. The available single nights are nights and time frames no one wants to stay there.

Some people here like the fact that Marriott's poll mentioned giving owners home resort fixed week advantage for 3 years if they convert to points. One of my resorts did just that and it is a lose lose for all owners. I own a beachfront deeded week 25 which is a PRIME June week but my resort is like marriott and the weeks float during the time frame you purchased. I was informed that for $5000 I could book the week on my deed (week 25) 12 months in advance where other points owners couldn't book until 10 months in advance giving me a home resort fixed annual advantage. I said i have been getting lucky and reserving 4th of July weeks more often than not through the years by being on the phone at the first available second you could book and if booked week 25 I wouldn't ever get 4th of July. They said you won't ever get 4th of July again anyway since almost all owners who had week 26 or 27 on their deeds had converted locking them in forever. Since the resort started this program 3 years ago I have not once been able to book a 4th of July week. Advantage to those who convert to points, loss of former access of inventory to those who won't convert.

If Marriott does the same or similar thing the deeded owners will buy 3 year rights to fixed home resort weeks locking other owners out from exchanging for those weeks, and costing the owners who lock in those weeks $1000's of dollars in extortion fees due every three years! Lose-lose for owners. Pay Marriott for what you already paid for the right to do (exchange for weeks in your deeded group, plat, gold,etc), or pay more for a priviledge that other wners don't get and keep paying for it every three years.

Perry I will keep reading and suprisingly in this situation probably keep agreeing with you, but to the owners assuming that this can't be bad for you, from my experience when a resort starts to market points they do so by giving former deeded week's owership benefits to those who pay the extortion to become points members. I could be wrong about this, and so could Perry, but from my experience I doubt it.

dougp26364 · Jun 9, 2010

PerryM said:
Guys, we need to put on our thinking caps.

Up until next week Marriott could care less about reservations and exchanges. Their computers and human operators took your request and processed them at a leisurely pace since they had no bone in that fight.

They helped you with depositing that reservation into II and that's their end in the matter.

Starting next week reservations becomes a HUGE focus to Marriott - the ability to get a reservation, for their members, is a TOP priority.

So how do you make your members happy when the whole goal is a reservation? You allow your members to make reservations 14 months out instead of 13 months.

Platinum Members reserve 14 months out
Gold Members reserve 58 (13.5 months) weeks out
Silver Members reserve 13 months and 1 week out

So as a Platinum Member your vacationing calendar goes 14 months into the future - you see Week 52 at MountainSide is open and you click it to make a reservation. You got it!

How can this be you say?

Marriott can combine Week 51 in front of 52 and week 50 in front of that and the 50% inventory dedicated to 13 month reservations will ALWAYS be snapped up before a non-member can get in there. (Weeks 49-50-51-52 to get New Year's Week; these are other members' orders used to making chains; remember it can be week 49 at ANY Marriott in this chain) And, of course, 13 month reservations will be available to non-members on the web page so its all computerized an no phone call is needed anymore.

Then those Platinum members who didn't get filled 14 months out will have to wait until they get a notice, 2 months later, that they do have a reservation for week 52 at MountainSide.

How can this be you say?

12 months to the nanosecond Marriott took all the pre-orders and dumped them into the reservation system at 8:00:0000001 AM CST - while your index finger muscle was just beginning to click your mouse. This is the 12 month inventory which is 50% of the total units available for reservations that week.

I don't know if Marriott will introduce pre-reservations to VIP owners but I sure would. Doesn't violate any rule that I can think of.

P.S.
As to other developers I don't know their reservation system and if it is so easy to out maneuver as Marriott's.

Those of you content pulling out your deed and telling yourself Marriott can't touch it - you are right! The problem is you will never get your dream vacation outside the new system.

You are really overthinking this thing. There appears to be a shooter on every grassy knoll, behind every building and sitting in every tree along the parade route. I'm sure you'll hit on one or two things and be able to crow "I told you so" but, you'll miss on 99% of all the fear mongering your doing in anticipation of any new internal exchange system Marriott might be about to announce.

At this point, what I think would be the funniest thing on TUG is if 2010 passes and nothing happens. :hysterical:

rsackett · Jun 9, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryDouglas
"...
In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, fees that are currently paid on a per transaction basis may be consolidated (with the exception of maintenance fees). For example, currently Owners pay the following fees (depending on usage) when using their week.

Reservation change fee
$29
Lock-off Use
$75
Split-week Use
$75
Interval International Annual Membership Fee
$64
Interval International Internal Exchange Fee
$99
Domestic Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
$104
International Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
$124
Interval International External Exchange Fee Domestic
$139
Interval International External Exchange Fee International
$154

In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, there may be an annual fee of $159 which may include these and other transaction fees currently paid on a per transaction basis. ...

...Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of $3750 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?...."

Up until the $3750 fee for THREE years they had me interested. That fee for THREE years is more than I paid for my Harbour Point week! Almost 1/2 the price I paied for my Manor Club week. I will just keep using my week as I do now, thank you very much. :rofl:

Ray

dougp26364 · Jun 9, 2010

dougp26364 said:
Perry, can you name ONE points based reservations system with the abuses you think Marriott will pull if/when they announce their new system? I belong to HGVC and DRI and don't see any of the abuses you're so worried about. Does Worldmark screw their owners over the way you seem to think Marriott is going to do?

PerryM said:
I don't think there is one - doesn't mean Marriott can't be the first.

We will have to read about reservations next week and how Marriott intends to handle them.

Marriott can simply let all the members, with enough Points, make the reservations themselves or offer a concierge service where they do it for you if you're a Platinum member for instance.

Can't guess how Marriott intends to set up their caste system and reward folks who pay to become part of a higher membership level.

But just because no other developer hasn't offered the service doesn't mean Marriott might not.

P.S.
WM is a Point system where everyone is treated the same. (Well not really but the difference is so small as to be the same) Marriott already has a 2 tier caste system of Member and Non-Member and might have a third one for resale Member too.

You know for 4 years Marriott has been telling us "Better not buy resale or you'll be sorry" - I believe them.

I just see no reason to put on my rosy glasses and assume Marriott will play nice...

Tombo,

Even Perry has admitted that he can't name one points based system that abuses it's owners as he seems to think Marriott is going to do. F.E.A.R. is False Evidence Appearing Real. Don't let Perry scare you based on non-facts and assumptions he's making. Like me he knows how to play the exchange game in the current system. Like me he knows that may be coming to an end. Unlike me he see's shadows lurking in the corners and he thinks it's a Marriott employee out to get him.

I own two points based timeshares. They're are much better systems than what Marriott offers today. Rather than being fearful I'm excited to see what Marriott will offer.....assuming they offer something. Every other major hotel chain/timeshare management company has a points based internal exchange system EXCEPT for Marriott. Do you see any of their owners screaming that the management company is scimming all the best weeks or that they can't reserve the really good weeks? No you don't. Now ask yourself, would Marriott, who has a reputation for being one of the best timeshare developer/management companies in the industry really turn themselves into an evil empire like Westgate? Come on, use some common sense, it's not going to happen.

dougp26364 · Jun 9, 2010

rsackett said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryDouglas
"...
In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, fees that are currently paid on a per transaction basis may be consolidated (with the exception of maintenance fees). For example, currently Owners pay the following fees (depending on usage) when using their week.

Reservation change fee
$29
Lock-off Use
$75
Split-week Use
$75
Interval International Annual Membership Fee
$64
Interval International Internal Exchange Fee
$99
Domestic Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
$104
International Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
$124
Interval International External Exchange Fee Domestic
$139
Interval International External Exchange Fee International
$154

In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, there may be an annual fee of $159 which may include these and other transaction fees currently paid on a per transaction basis. ...

...Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of $3750 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?...."

Up until the $3750 fee for THREE years they had me interested. That fee for THREE years is more than I paid for my Harbour Point week! Almost 1/2 the price I paied for my Manor Club week. I will just keep using my week as I do now, thank you very much. :rofl:

Ray

$1,250 per year is WAY out of line with what other internal points exchange programs charge for their membership fee's. DRI is $235 and includes Interval Gold membership and all internal exchanges have no exchange fee. HGVC has a membership fee of $95 but everything else is ala carte pricing. The $95 covers your RCI membership fee.

I doubt Marriott will price themselves out of the business but, I suppose it is possible. If they think I'll pay over $1,000 in membership fee's then I'll be like you and say thanks but no thanks. Personally, based on the market and what other clubs charge, I just don't see this as feasable. I bet Marriott management isn't that stupid either.

MRMarriott · Jun 9, 2010

Inventory through Marriott

It's silly to think that Marriott will simply be banking inventory, waiting with androids for 8:00:0000001 on check-in mornings. That's just not how inventory works.

If someone decides to become a points owner, then that frees up their inventory. In all likelihood, it will create more inventory during peak times! A points system fundamentally benefits those who have the highest valued weeks and is a detriment to those with bronze or silver seasons.

Imagine if the thread above is correct and you own Maui Christmas. You see that, yes, you can get Maui during Christmas, but you can also take a huge pool of points and spend 21 days somewhere else. That's an amazing option, and taking that option frees up a Maui Christmas that the owner would have likely stayed.

Also, I've read somewhere on these boards that 22% of owners elect to trade for points in the current system, and have to do it before the year begins. That's 22% of Marriott's inventory that can be dumped into the points system. And it's not the prime weeks - it's weeks that are leftover since owners who could have booked 12 months or 13 months ahead already did so.

I for one am a big fan of my club and will listen closely to what Marriott has to tell me. If they are going to make it more flexible and easier to use, I don't see how we're getting shafted.

Have a little faith.

taffy19 · Jun 9, 2010

MRMarriott said:
It's silly to think that Marriott will simply be banking inventory, waiting with androids for 8:00:0000001 on check-in mornings. That's just not how inventory works.

If someone decides to become a points owner, then that frees up their inventory. In all likelihood, it will create more inventory during peak times! A points system fundamentally benefits those who have the highest valued weeks and is a detriment to those with bronze or silver seasons.

Imagine if the thread above is correct and you own Maui Christmas. You see that, yes, you can get Maui during Christmas, but you can also take a huge pool of points and spend 21 days somewhere else. That's an amazing option, and taking that option frees up a Maui Christmas that the owner would have likely stayed.

Also, I've read somewhere on these boards that 22% of owners elect to trade for points in the current system, and have to do it before the year begins. That's 22% of Marriott's inventory that can be dumped into the points system. And it's not the prime weeks - it's weeks that are leftover since owners who could have booked 12 months or 13 months ahead already did so.

I for one am a big fan of my club and will listen closely to what Marriott has to tell me. If they are going to make it more flexible and easier to use, I don't see how we're getting shafted.

Have a little faith.

Don't tell me that you are the Mr. Marriott? If so, welcome to TUG.

I would like you to know that I am extremely worried and upset that these rumors have been floating around for so long. If you are not the Mr. Marriott, then I hope that someone of the Marriott Company is reading these posts anyway.

PS. How many Mr. Marriotts are there?

SueDonJ · Jun 9, 2010

GaryDouglas said:
This is the survey that was circulated by Marriott in Nov of '08, although it might be incomplete. Maybe this was a preview of things to come that we didn't fully appreciate at the time...

Thanks so much, Gary! It's great to see in this thread something concrete from Marriott that we can wrap our brains around. I remember some of this floating around TUG when some folks got the survey, but you're the only one of us who's put his thinking cap on tightly enough to find it and post it here. A gold star for you!

There's some interesting, enticing tidbits in there. This is going to be fun.

SueDonJ · Jun 9, 2010

MRMarriott said:
It's silly to think that Marriott will simply be banking inventory, waiting with androids for 8:00:0000001 on check-in mornings. That's just not how inventory works.

If someone decides to become a points owner, then that frees up their inventory. In all likelihood, it will create more inventory during peak times! A points system fundamentally benefits those who have the highest valued weeks and is a detriment to those with bronze or silver seasons.

Imagine if the thread above is correct and you own Maui Christmas. You see that, yes, you can get Maui during Christmas, but you can also take a huge pool of points and spend 21 days somewhere else. That's an amazing option, and taking that option frees up a Maui Christmas that the owner would have likely stayed.

Also, I've read somewhere on these boards that 22% of owners elect to trade for points in the current system, and have to do it before the year begins. That's 22% of Marriott's inventory that can be dumped into the points system. And it's not the prime weeks - it's weeks that are leftover since owners who could have booked 12 months or 13 months ahead already did so.

I for one am a big fan of my club and will listen closely to what Marriott has to tell me. If they are going to make it more flexible and easier to use, I don't see how we're getting shafted.

Have a little faith.

iconnections said:
Don't tell me that you are the Mr. Marriott? If so, welcome to TUG. I would like you to know that I am extremely worried and upset that these rumors have been floating around for so long. If you are not the Mr. Marriott, then I hope that someone of the Marriott Company is reading these posts anyway.

PS. How many Mr. Marriotts are there?

He's either Mr. Marriott, or George Michael.

<groan>

SueDonJ · Jun 9, 2010

scrapngen said:
... point weeks, non-point weeks, dog weeks, etc. Pointer/setter weeks? ...

Good post all around, gen, but the "Pointer/setter weeks" made me :rofl:

tombo · Jun 9, 2010

dougp26364 said:
Tombo,

Even Perry has admitted that he can't name one points based system that abuses it's owners as he seems to think Marriott is going to do. F.E.A.R. is False Evidence Appearing Real. Don't let Perry scare you based on non-facts and assumptions he's making. Like me he knows how to play the exchange game in the current system. Like me he knows that may be coming to an end. Unlike me he see's shadows lurking in the corners and he thinks it's a Marriott employee out to get him.

Let me name 2 points based systems who have done the things I dscribed at resorts I own. Festiva and Escapes.

If you think Marriott is rolling out a program with no advantages for those who convert to points over those who don't, you are in for a rude awakening. can you imagine the salesman saying if you swap to points you can do blah, and you respond I can do that now. Then he says well if you swap to points you can do blah blah. you respond I can do that too. They would never convert anyone! They have to give advantages to points members, and advantages given to those who convert translate into disadvantages for those who refuse to.

MRMarriott · Jun 9, 2010

Possible Advantages

Well, again, if the post above is correct from the letter sent out (Thanks for that, very enlightening!), then it looks like the program is going to be a lot more flexible.

The great thing about internal exchange is you know exactly what you're getting. Give them this number of points and you've got a reservation (as long as there's inventory, of course). Prime weeks will be easier to get simply because they'll cost a lot more points and owners like us can weigh the advantages and disadvantages of using them.

Think about how this is better than the current system. You deposit in Interval and ask for prime weeks. You hope and pray to get it. Months go by. Flights increase in cost. Maybe you get it - maybe you don't. It's the worst thing about the system the way it is.

Second, I think the fact that you can stay 7 nights or 6 nights or just for a weekend is a huge plus that I can't do now. How many of you have had to leave early, or add a night to get a cheaper flight? Now, you don't have to worry about paying more or losing value. You get what you get.

I own up in MountainSide purely for trades, and I'm tired of dealing with Interval. I also wouldn't mind taking a trip to Grand Chateau, but who wants to stay in Las Vegas for a whole week? If I can take my MountainSide, exchange it for 5 days somewhere and use 2 nights for a weekend in Vegas, Marriott doesn't even have to offer me an advantage to switch.

SueDonJ · Jun 9, 2010

MRMarriott said:
Well, again, if the post above is correct from the letter sent out (Thanks for that, very enlightening!), then it looks like the program is going to be a lot more flexible.

The great thing about internal exchange is you know exactly what you're getting. Give them this number of points and you've got a reservation (as long as there's inventory, of course). Prime weeks will be easier to get simply because they'll cost a lot more points and owners like us can weigh the advantages and disadvantages of using them.

Think about how this is better than the current system. You deposit in Interval and ask for prime weeks. You hope and pray to get it. Months go by. Flights increase in cost. Maybe you get it - maybe you don't. It's the worst thing about the system the way it is.

Second, I think the fact that you can stay 7 nights or 6 nights or just for a weekend is a huge plus that I can't do now. How many of you have had to leave early, or add a night to get a cheaper flight? Now, you don't have to worry about paying more or losing value. You get what you get.

Yep, instant confirmation of exchanges is an enticement all by itself. Add in that my 3BR points will get me a 3BR more than .00001% of the time, or will get me an extra vacation without being at the mercy of II's finicky AC offers, and I'm almost sold.

MRMarriott said:
I own up in MountainSide purely for trades, and I'm tired of dealing with Interval. I also wouldn't mind taking a trip to Grand Chateau, but who wants to stay in Las Vegas for a whole week? If I can take my MountainSide, exchange it for 5 days somewhere and use 2 nights for a weekend in Vegas, Marriott doesn't even have to offer me an advantage to switch.

Well, that explains it, you're George Michael. Because none of the rumors on TUG about which resort is Mr. Marriott's favorite mentioned Mountainside.

tombo · Jun 9, 2010

MRMarriott said:
Second, I think the fact that you can stay 7 nights or 6 nights or just for a weekend is a huge plus that I can't do now. How many of you have had to leave early, or add a night to get a cheaper flight? Now, you don't have to worry about paying more or losing value. You get what you get.

I own up in MountainSide purely for trades, and I'm tired of dealing with Interval. I also wouldn't mind taking a trip to Grand Chateau, but who wants to stay in Las Vegas for a whole week? If I can take my MountainSide, exchange it for 5 days somewhere and use 2 nights for a weekend in Vegas, Marriott doesn't even have to offer me an advantage to switch.

But you can only get it in theory because all valuable inventory will be booked 12 months in advance.

From the Marriott survey:
"Reservations can be made 12 months before date of occupancy, with a requirement to make reservations of 7 nights or more
· At 6 months before date of occupancy reservations can be booked for 3 nights or more
· At 1 month before date of occupancy, reservations can be booked in nightly increments".

At 6 months (the earliest you can reserve less than 7 nights)no summer weekends at the beach or long weekends at a ski resort in january will remain because all prime weeks available will have been booked the first day by all points owners who had enough points to reserve them. The theory is great, the reality is that only dog inventory will remain available for points reservations at 6 months and especially 1 month before check in. I don't care if you are a points member or a deeded week owner, there never has and never will be any prime inventory available 6 months before check-in. Anyone who has tried to reserve a 4th of july week at the beach one day after the first day you were allowed to reserve can tell you how much prime inventory is left if you are 24 hours late, much less 6 months.

Asia2000 · Jun 9, 2010

dougp26364 said:
$1,250 per year is WAY out of line with what other internal points exchange programs charge for their membership fee's. DRI is $235 and includes Interval Gold membership and all internal exchanges have no exchange fee. HGVC has a membership fee of $95 but everything else is ala carte pricing. The $95 covers your RCI membership fee.

I doubt Marriott will price themselves out of the business but, I suppose it is possible. If they think I'll pay over $1,000 in membership fee's then I'll be like you and say thanks but no thanks. Personally, based on the market and what other clubs charge, I just don't see this as feasable. I bet Marriott management isn't that stupid either.

I'm not sure everyone read the entire letter. Marriott is requesting $1,250 per year for you to use your timeshare via the Points program. For $1,250 a year, I can go rent out a 2 bedroom just about anywhere I want. Or, I can save $1,250 a year, make good interest on it for a five years, and just go buy another week at a destination of my choice. Why would I pay this to Marriott when I can invest it and go buy a into a timeshare that does not have $1,250 membership dues?

Am I missing something here?

Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

davidvel

rsackett

davidvel

GaryDouglas

scrapngen

puckmanfl

PerryM

dougp26364

TUG Review Crew: Expert

GregT

TUG Member

PerryM

tombo

Tug Review Crew: Rookie

dougp26364

TUG Review Crew: Expert

rsackett

dougp26364

TUG Review Crew: Expert

dougp26364

TUG Review Crew: Expert

MRMarriott

taffy19

SueDonJ

SueDonJ

SueDonJ

tombo

Tug Review Crew: Rookie

MRMarriott

SueDonJ

tombo

Tug Review Crew: Rookie

Asia2000