Recent Destination Club News

Kagehitokiri2 · Mar 25, 2010

which could be avoided by allowing members to sell DIRECTLY. which im not sure DHH did, thinking back. or m private residences...?

(hideaways club seems clear that when you find a buyer, that buyer is going to pay the current price, and you simply avoid the 5% "marketing" fee.)

and if you allow that, you could make it nonrefundable as well. that forces people to resell themselves though, while not ensuring members are committed.

thinking about it, if PerryM etc want ability to resell directly, it either has to be nonrefundable in that event, or nonrefundable all the time. DHH still gave you 80% current, so that must mean that the new person coming in was paying the current price..

thats how it is with RC DC. fractionals/home = deeded. portfolio = "deeded." and neither is refundable. you have to sell yourself, and RC has ROFR.

speaking of which, how does gaming ROFR work? marriott does it for timeshares, so im sure its the exact same setup for RC DC.

***

of course OTOH most of the clubs with caps (not sure if that includes Q) go to 1:1 when full. and lusso even had a time guarantee when full. (18 months or something?)

SciFrog · Mar 25, 2010

Q is 3:1 but they reset the resignation list for new members... If they enforce the cap, it will be 1:1, the club if way over halfway mark to be capped (800 full Q5 members or 1,000 member, whichever comes first).

Kagehitokiri2 · Mar 25, 2010

SciFrog said:
Q is 3:1 but they reset the resignation list for new members... If they enforce the cap, it will be 1:1, the club if way over halfway mark to be capped (800 full Q5 members or 1,000 member, whichever comes first).

seem to recall another club talking about resetting resignation list for new members as well.

interesting from sherpa >
http://www.sherpareport.com/destination-clubs/3-largest-destination-clubs-20310.html.html

Quintess sells memberships equivalent to 225 nights per homes

that would be 5 Q6. article also gives holiday pricing for Q2 > Q7.

TarheelTraveler · Mar 26, 2010

PerryM said:
Is there a handy-dandy chart of this for ALL DC's out there?

With a Points DC ALL members who want to sell their memberships immediately start to get a check as Points are sold.

e.g.
I own 20,000 Points which I paid $10 for a few years ago and a divorce court requires immediate selling of 10,000 Points.

5 other members need to sell Points too and so does the DC.

1 Point sells for $7 now (after decrease of the value of the yearly appraisal).

Another member want's to buy 7,000 more Points.

Out of those 7,000 Points I get to liquidate 1,000 Points (7 of us selling at the same time) and a check is cut for $7,000 to me minus a small processing fee. The other 5 members get $7,000 checks too as does the DC.

This is instant liquidation of memberships as each new sale is made.

I put the remaining 6,000 Points up on eBay and sell 4,000 at $5 each or $20,000 in my pocket and have 2,000 that the DC can still sell.

This is but one example of the dinosaur DC concepts used now and what could be used if the members wanted a change into the 21st century.

Now there is finally a difference. Thanks, PerryM. Not sure that it is earth-shattering, but it is a difference. I've heard of membership nights being divided for two incoming buyers, but I've not heard of a membership being sliced and diced that many ways. Points systems are definitely more complicated, but I guess for the right situation that could come in handy. I could see that as appealing to some and not for others.

PerryM · Mar 26, 2010

TarheelTraveler said:
Now there is finally a difference. Thanks, PerryM. Not sure that it is earth-shattering, but it is a difference. I've heard of membership nights being divided for two incoming buyers, but I've not heard of a membership being sliced and diced that many ways. Points systems are definitely more complicated, but I guess for the right situation that could come in handy. I could see that as appealing to some and not for others.

We all use Points all day long - just open your wallet and you will find Federal Reserve Points - nobody seems to be overwhelmed with Points in commerce.

Timeshares are similar to DCs except a step below. Disney sells timeshares - they are Points and Disney is the #1 timeshare on the planet. Even as other timeshares have lost 50% of their worth Disney hangs in there.

DC's were born from the minds of hucksters who had very little background as to how a DC should really be run - Points.

A simple chart, on a website, tells you how many points are needed to reserve a DC villa - lets say you want to visit Maui for 10 days and the total comes up to 10,000 Points - that's what you buy.
If you don't use all your Points this year they roll forward 1 year automatically; you don't lose them.
If you are short some Points you can borrow them from next year's usage.
MFs are charged per Point.
I can sell my unused Point this year to someone else who needs them and make a few bucks. The website has a place to buy and sell permanent Points and to buy/sell Points from just this year's usage.

It really doesn't get much simpler than that.

The more "management" keeps out of things the more the owners control their own destiny at the DC.

Reservations are done via a website too - no human needed to answer a phone call - just a calendar which shows the number of Points needed to reserve a day at each villa and a mouse click to make the reservation.

Keys are old news - each villa has the Kaba lock and a 6-digit number opens the door and only during the reservation stay. http://www.kabakeylesslocks.com/keyless-entry/products/oracode-660k.aspx I use this on our rental units and my renters just love it - no keycard to lose no keycard to get demagnetized if you put it in your pocket with your cell phone.

There is so much the DC industry could do if they just grew up....

Kagehitokiri2 · Mar 26, 2010

i think PerryM is bring up concepts from disney / worldmark. IIRC disney had ROFR as well. and both also had renting of points.

i think this was my best re points vs nights >

points are better for people who want more travel time - lower season, cheaper accommodation, or both.

no points are better for people who want more expensive stuff - holidays, expensive accommodation, or both.

used to say points meant you couldnt do unlimited free, but there is no reason you couldnt have unlimited free short term space available. now, long term space available, not sure about that..

most DCs with points have a set average property price. but points / quasi-points allow a scale of pricing levels. which is again a trade off between those who want more time vs more expensive.

PerryM · Mar 26, 2010

In a nutshell

Kagehitokiri2 said:
i think PerryM is bring up concepts from disney / worldmark. IIRC disney had ROFR as well. and both also had renting of points.

i think this was my best re points vs nights >

used to say points meant you couldnt do unlimited free, but there is no reason you couldnt have unlimited free short term space available. now, long term space available, not sure about that..

most DCs with points have a set average property price. but points / quasi-points allow a scale of pricing levels. which is again a trade off between those who want more time vs more expensive.

Points are sold based upon the total worth of the DC's deeds - an annual appraisal is simple to do. Let's say 25 villas average $4M each or $100M. This is a large number so lets say 1 Point is worth $10 equity or 10,000,000 Points are generated.

If we use 10 members per villa that means each member should buy 40,000 Points for 4 weeks of usage leaving 12 weeks unused (52-40) which allow for cleaning and slack for operations.

Lets say that each villa's rent averages $7,000 per week with holiday rent $14,000 and mud season $1,000 per week. $7,000 * 4 weeks = $28,000 which must be used by the 40,000 Points or each Point is worth 70 cents of rent.

The rent, per day, is easy to determine and calendars are created with the number of Points per day per villa. e.g. New Year's week at a ski resort is 14,000 Points or 2,000 per day so a 10 day vacation is 20,000 Points.

Reservations open 6 months before the beginning of a month so December reservations open July 1. During the month of July ANY member can request any number of days in December (and overflowing into Jan). On August 1 the computer takes Points away and issues reservations.

If more than 1 member wants the same reservation and eMail is sent to all members wanting the reservation stating that they must submit a sealed bid in addition to the normal Points - the highest bid wins and in the case of a tie the computer randomly picks a winner. (There are a few more subtle rules which I won't bore you with)

Those members who did not win get their Points back PLUS split the Premium Bid the winner put up as a consolation prize. Those pro-rated Points can be used anyway the member wants, next holiday they have more points for their premium bid.

That's how holidays are settled - the Capitalistic way with Points.

Granted this is more complicated than simply clicking a mouse - a judgment must be made as to how much a reservation is worth to the member.

Anyway that's my simple DC in a nutshell - can be totally explained on 1 piece of paper. 100% transparent, 100% equity, 100% Points oriented.

TarheelTraveler · Mar 27, 2010

Different strokes for different folks. It's that simple. There is not one best answer for everyone.

Kage's summary:

points are better for people who want more travel time - lower season, cheaper accommodation, or both.

no points are better for people who want more expensive stuff - holidays, expensive accommodation, or both.

is still the best explanation of the debate of points vs. nights. Better for some and worse for others.

The beauty of a DC with nights is you simply go online and book it. I don't need to worry about spending more of my points to book this or that or having to bid the most points to get this or that.

While some would relish the idea of being able to get a "great deal" to spend a lot less points (money) on a ski location during the mud season, I would be annoyed about having to pay quadruple points for taking my family to the Turks and Caicos for Spring Break. That transforms the beautiful travel simplicity of booking in minutes to hours.

As I've said on DC4MS, I've been in both systems and for me personally after having experienced the nights system, I've changed my opinion and prefer the nights system. Crescendo was a relatively simple points based system. 1/2 points for low season, regular points for high season, double or triple points for holidays depending on the holiday. Invariably, I never wanted to spend double or triple points to get a holiday, and I didn't want to spend mud season in a ski resort no matter how cheap it was, so we just did high season non-holiday travel. With a nights based system now, I actually get at least one or two holidays every year, which is great when you have school aged children.

Of course, if you were a CR member with lots of money to burn on holidays or wanted double the nights to travel off season, you'd prefer sticking with the points system.

Just shoot me if I had to go through the RC DC analysis of booking a vacation, with points varying depending on location, number of bedrooms, holiday or non-holiday, higher some days and lower other days, demand, etc. I remember there being multiple threads of people saying that system is just ridiculously complicated at DC4MS.

Nonetheless, I can see why PerryM would love that system as someone with kids out of the house, lots of free time to travel, the ability to travel not around the holidays, and lots of time to book travel.

I can also see the merits of a points based system for timeshares, because every week or close to every week is sold with a timeshare, unlike 65-70% with a DC. With the tight availability of timeshares and the varying levels of accomodations, and if you want the flexibility to vary from "your week," a points system seems like a necessity.

PerryM · Mar 27, 2010

DC - just get out of the way...

TarheelTraveler said:
Different strokes for different folks. It's that simple. There is not one best answer for everyone.

Kage's summary:

points are better for people who want more travel time - lower season, cheaper accommodation, or both.

no points are better for people who want more expensive stuff - holidays, expensive accommodation, or both.

is still the best explanation of the debate of points vs. nights. Better for some and worse for others.

The beauty of a DC with nights is you simply go online and book it. I don't need to worry about spending more of my points to book this or that or having to bid the most points to get this or that.

While some would relish the idea of being able to get a "great deal" to spend a lot less points (money) on a ski location during the mud season, I would be annoyed about having to pay quadruple points for taking my family to the Turks and Caicos for Spring Break. That transforms the beautiful travel simplicity of booking in minutes to hours.

As I've said on DC4MS, I've been in both systems and for me personally after having experienced the nights system, I've changed my opinion and prefer the nights system. Crescendo was a relatively simple points based system. 1/2 points for low season, regular points for high season, double or triple points for holidays depending on the holiday. Invariably, I never wanted to spend double or triple points to get a holiday, and I didn't want to spend mud season in a ski resort no matter how cheap it was, so we just did high season non-holiday travel. With a nights based system now, I actually get at least one or two holidays every year, which is great when you have school aged children.

Of course, if you were a CR member with lots of money to burn on holidays or wanted double the nights to travel off season, you'd prefer sticking with the points system.

Just shoot me if I had to go through the RC DC analysis of booking a vacation, with points varying depending on location, number of bedrooms, holiday or non-holiday, higher some days and lower other days, demand, etc. I remember there being multiple threads of people saying that system is just ridiculously complicated at DC4MS.

Nonetheless, I can see why PerryM would love that system as someone with kids out of the house, lots of free time to travel, the ability to travel not around the holidays, and lots of time to book travel.

I can also see the merits of a points based system for timeshares, because every week or close to every week is sold with a timeshare, unlike 65-70% with a DC. With the tight availability of timeshares and the varying levels of accomodations, and if you want the flexibility to vary from "your week," a points system seems like a necessity.

What makes my DC the most "fair" system anywhere is that the members and management have no say as to what things are "worth".

When a new villa is to be added the number of points is not arbitrary - the market tells everyone what its worth. E.g. a new villa is to be bought and can be purchased for $5 M and the total of the existing villas is $100 M (from an appraisal) with 10,000,000 million points thus each Point is worth $10 or the new villa generates 500,000 Points.

Same with reservations - rental rates gotten from an outside source determine how much each day is worth in Points. The members simply open their wallets (actually account on the DC's web page) and go shopping.

There really is no such thing as "holidays" to worry about - whenever 2 or more requested reservations overlap (for any day) the computer awards the member who spent the most Points their reservation - ties require either a Premium bid or the computer just randomly picking a winner.

Net net - the more "management" keeps out of the members way the better the system runs. (Don't you wish that were true of a lot of things?)ir

Kagehitokiri2 · Mar 27, 2010

its not about fair, its about value.

for holidays, if you can occasionally get one of the resorts i mentioned earlier, youre getting insane value. when i gave values for trial, they were high season. when i gave values for club in general, they included XMAS/NYE as well. > http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=880648&postcount=129 and re access in terms of holidays - at raffles canouan and banyan tree seychelles, base room rates are $1,500 over XMAS/NYE. at RC grand cayman over XMAS/NYE, base room rates are $1,200 and 3BR resort view is $6,750. (ER has 4BR pool villas.) there are also often min stays - la samanna is 10 nts.

thinking about when properties are same value, points would most likely lead to "over utilization" of shoulder season. everyone would want the discount outside low season. only people with limited use would just stick with their primary choices.

i dont recall if this issue has been brought up in the context of nights vs points, but it seems to me that point values can be more easily changed. with nights its purely a matter of dues.

when you look at the hideousness that is RCDC points system, you can see the potential for overcomplexity, poor value, and subsidies that will likely result in huge dues increases much sooner than any of the other DC increases occurred.

re ER

Kagehitokiri2 said:
3259 members
one third empty nesters

TarheelTraveler · Mar 27, 2010

http://www.realestatechannel.com/in...tate-bubble-monaco-real-estate-sales-2255.php

"...Last year global prices for luxury housing fell by an average 5.5%, while prices for leisure properties decreased by 13.9%. In contrast, prices for urban real estate, in 2009 even increased - by 0.4%.

Prices for luxury housing decreased in 75% of the 56 regions included in the international price index of Knight Frank. The most intensive drops observed in Dubai (-45%) and Dublin (-25%), while the fall in the "traditional luxury regions" such as Paris and Monaco amounted to - 15%. Prices for the Caribbean elite property decreased by10%, while Courchevel - 12.4%.

Surprisingly, by the Asian region was not affected by the crisis: prices for luxury real estate in Shanghai has spiked 52%, in Beijing - 47%, while in Hong Kong - by 40.5%...."

Kagehitokiri2 · Mar 27, 2010

removed...

Chicagomark · Mar 27, 2010

Don't think that article applies to US DC's....

Dubai, Dublin, Paris, & Monaco? Huh? NYC, Chicago, La Jolla, Sonoma, Tuscon, Scottsdale, Naples aren't down 15% to 50%.......

PerryM · Mar 27, 2010

Kagehitokiri2 said:
its not about fair, its about value.

for holidays, if you can occasionally get one of the resorts i mentioned earlier, youre getting insane value. when i gave values for trial, they were high season. when i gave values for club in general, they included XMAS/NYE as well. > http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=880648&postcount=129 and re access in terms of holidays - at raffles canouan and banyan tree seychelles, base room rates are $1,500 over XMAS/NYE. at RC grand cayman over XMAS/NYE, base room rates are $1,200 and 3BR resort view is $6,750. (ER has 4BR pool villas.) there are also often min stays - la samanna is 10 nts.

thinking about when properties are same value, points would most likely lead to "over utilization" of shoulder season. everyone would want the discount outside low season. only people with limited use would just stick with their primary choices.

i dont recall if this issue has been brought up in the context of nights vs points, but it seems to me that point values can be more easily changed. with nights its purely a matter of dues.

when you look at the hideousness that is RCDC points system, you can see the potential for overcomplexity, poor value, and subsidies that will likely result in huge dues increases much sooner than any of the other DC increases occurred.

re ER

DC's should be simply a way to equitably offer vacation ownership to their members and fair usage.

Replace my Point with a $ and you have exactly the same system - they are interchangeable. I know of no DC that does that now.

It would be a TRUE replacement for a number of second homes.

Usage is key here - there is NO more fair method of valuing each day than what folks pay for rental rates for similar lodging. New Year's day is going to rent for a lot more than Halloween at a ski resort. Points simply defers what any day of the year to a 3rd party - a renter's desire to pay cash to rent something similar.

I don't know who cooks up what New Year's eve and day are worth in the existing DCs - probably a slick salesrep who has no idea what they are talking about is my guess.

Who decides the rules for holidays at all these DCs? My system doesn't pretend to be that smart and simply allows members to use Points to decide who get's what.

My system is based 100% on Capitalism where Points decide everything, and management should be busy arranging toilets to be cleaned and good service to the owners.

Who knows, maybe the successor to the DC will take up some of my ideas since I don't see the current DCs ever getting free from the quagmire they are now in.

But don't get me wrong, if you like your DC I'm happy for you. I just don't see DCs ever cloning themselves in the future. All those folks with $400k of "Pocket Change" are rethinking what to do with that pocket change.

TarheelTraveler · Mar 27, 2010

PerryM said:
Replace my Point with a $ and you have exactly the same system - they are interchangeable. I know of no DC that does that now..

I thought Ritz-Carlton was exactly the type of point system that you propose.

PerryM said:
Who decides the rules for holidays at all these DCs? My system doesn't pretend to be that smart and simply allows members to use Points to decide who get's what.

I think ER has fastest finger, but most have some sort of holiday drawing. In ours, we rank the holiday and house in lottery. It works shockingly well. IIRC, I think UE has a very sophisticated holiday drawing system that takes into account past success. Quintess has a drawing system similar to A&K again IIRC. The lottery systems all seem to be fair and equitable.

Again, personally I don't want to compete with other members to see how much money I can shell out for that Spring Break in the Turks and Caicos. I understand that bidding your points is capitalism at its finest, but I'm trying to get great accomodations at a reasonable price, not outbid the guy who flies everywhere in his private jet and could care less about what he is paying.

Kagehitokiri2 · Mar 28, 2010

PerryM, im giving hotel rates for hotel villas...

TarheelTraveler, AFAIK PerryM is discussing a "normal" seasonal points sytem. RCDC's is just plain ****ed. 365 values per accommodation.

Chicagomark, of those probably only la jolla did ok the whole time. my problem with the quote highlighted by TarheelTraveler is that 99% of the time "luxury" is defined way too broadly.

PerryM · Mar 28, 2010

TarheelTraveler said:
I thought Ritz-Carlton was exactly the type of point system that you propose.

I think ER has fastest finger, but most have some sort of holiday drawing. In ours, we rank the holiday and house in lottery. It works shockingly well. IIRC, I think UE has a very sophisticated holiday drawing system that takes into account past success. Quintess has a drawing system similar to A&K again IIRC. The lottery systems all seem to be fair and equitable.

Again, personally I don't want to compete with other members to see how much money I can shell out for that Spring Break in the Turks and Caicos. I understand that bidding your points is capitalism at its finest, but I'm trying to get great accomodations at a reasonable price, not outbid the guy who flies everywhere in his private jet and could care less about what he is paying.

When RC initially came out I looked at them and they have a Point system but there were all kinds of problems with it. I'd have to review them again but I'm not going to since I have no interest in them now.

I will admit that in my system the person who has the most Points has more power - just like in real life with money. I can't sit up front in the airline unless I fly 1st class - costs more money - I live with it and the money I save I spend on other things.

Rules are created to control people - I'm a free market kind of guy and believe we are all served better with a free market rather than some guy cooking up rules to control us.

In my example the guy who decides to book 15 days at the end of the year to stay at a villa will get that reservation if other members want less days during any day that is over booked. If that's why he bought enough Points to do this each year well that's what he gets to do each year until someone puts up more Points.

The person putting up the most Points always wins - that's life.

Lotteries or squirrelly rules are a poor substitution to market forces. Some folks believe its the other way around - I can't change anyone's mind on this topic.

PerryM · Mar 28, 2010

Kagehitokiri2 said:
PerryM, im giving hotel rates for hotel villas...

TarheelTraveler, AFAIK PerryM is discussing a "normal" seasonal points sytem. RCDC's is just plain ****ed. 365 values per accommodation.

Chicagomark, of those probably only la jolla did ok the whole time. my problem with the quote highlighted by TarheelTraveler is that 99% of the time "luxury" is defined way too broadly.

With my rental units I have 5 rates that cover every day of the year:

Holiday
High season
Middle season
Low season
Firesale

Any DC demanding more than that is insane.

Kagehitokiri2 · Mar 28, 2010

yeah, i think its fewer than that for any DCs with points. (excluding RC

)

for example >
http://www.thehideawaysclub.com/membership-destination-points.php

DHH (winding down) had quasi points, by varying number of nights required for a week.

luxus doesnt have it described online.

SciFrog · Mar 28, 2010

Points are horrible and overly complicated for DC. It only works for people like PerryM who want to spend countless hours playing games with the system.

IMHO DC fail miserably on holidays. I want to choose my destinations for holidays... This is why I have a non holiday plan, I do what I want...

Kagehitokiri2 · Mar 28, 2010

seems like more info >
http://www.luxist.com/2010/03/24/annika-sorenstam-takes-her-brand-to-the-ritz/

back to old fashioned exchange >
http://www.luxehomeswap.com/

TarheelTraveler · Mar 29, 2010

Ultimate Escapes/Private Escapes

Another lawsuit was filed against Private Escapes/Ultimate Escapes/Rich Keith:

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-codce/case_no-1:2010cv00685/case_id-118468/

Member had a PE preview membership and says his deposit was not refunded, and was supposedly told PE does not have the money to refund his deposit. Case is very similar to others.

The only interesting piece IMHO is the email attached as Exhibit 3. Member asks what the refund procedure is as the documentation is unclear. PE response is that they crafted the clarifying language after the member joined as the redemption language was not clear. Says that they'll put the language in their file and member should do the same. Provides that after 12 months, you can resign, and must be refunded within 90 days of written request. Does that make it part of the contract? I would be willing to bet that one of the defenses will be that it is not part of the contract.

Also interesting is it states that the merger is for real this time (acknowledges that member had heard that before), saying merger documents were being signed in two days per email from CEO (April 1, 2008).

PerryM · Mar 29, 2010

SciFrog said:
Points are horrible and overly complicated for DC. It only works for people like PerryM who want to spend countless hours playing games with the system.

IMHO DC fail miserably on holidays. I want to choose my destinations for holidays... This is why I have a non holiday plan, I do what I want...

Granted Points are the extreme in flexibility and some folks don't like that - the current crop of DCs are then a viable alternative.

Going to be busy making money for a while - catch you guys later...

ClubsRDead · Mar 29, 2010

TarheelTraveler said:
Another lawsuit was filed against Private Escapes/Ultimate Escapes/Rich Keith:

While I suspect the money isn't just freely available to make automatic refunds, it's a little insane that someone would actually tell him that.

I didn't note when he joined.

This is indicative of something Keith / PE did frequently, "special redemption rights," ie - get your money back by XX time (I've heard about it being as low as 3-5 days). These types of clauses were just sales gimmicks to help relieve any angst a potential member might have about the refund process, and was often promised to folks as a way they could bypass the 3-in, 1-out provisions.

Keith copied this dumb idea from McGrath, like many others.

Desties · Mar 29, 2010

ClubsRDead said:
These types of clauses were just sales gimmicks to help relieve any angst a potential member might have about the refund process, and was often promised to folks as a way they could bypass the 3-in, 1-out provisions.

As someone who first joined PE through the preview membership plan, it was never subject to the 3-to-1 clause. It was just a half-priced plan that offered 14 nights a year with a few restrictions along the way (such as no metropolitan properties). I think mine may have stipulated being paid back in 6 months instead of 3 months, but a year later I simply upgraded to the full membership. It was supposed to be a one-year preview plan, but the prospective member could have simply continue to renew on a year-to-year basis.