Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

Fletch,

This is a huge thread to keep up w/ but have you ever said or do you know whether the deeds will stay w/TS owners, or will they give that up for the "privileges" of the new system?? For PP owners, why would they join and give up their certainty of their prime weeks if there is no home resort advantage, and they no longer have a deed?? You did say that those are the people who will benefit most from the new system, I thought. Just wondering how that works...

Thanks for sharing and oh, do let us know if we can get a decent deal to go try out the new Disney Hawaii property

My fees! My fees! What will happen to my fees?

Fletch said:

gee, thanks John. Didn't your Momma teach you if you don't have nothing nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all ?
If you want to trash people, what about those HOA people who rip people off yearly

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THOSE CADS! I hope to find a few of them & give them a piece of my mind!

Not sure of the details but I was told the pts will still be deeded.

What's to try ?, it will be a slam dunk

scrapngen said:

This is a huge thread to keep up w/ but have you ever said or do you know whether the deeds will stay w/TS owners, or will they give that up for the "privileges" of the new system?? For PP owners, why would they join and give up their certainty of their prime weeks if there is no home resort advantage, and they no longer have a deed?? You did say that those are the people who will benefit most from the new system, I thought. Just wondering how that works...

Thanks for sharing and oh, do let us know if we can get a decent deal to go try out the new Disney Hawaii property

Click to expand...

ondeadlin said:

What is a fixed 1BR ski week in Vail worth? Not a great property, but a lot of demand. It might actually give value back to those weeks. Same for Breckenridge.

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I think the value of Colorado's Marriott properties will be rated high in the system, considering the demand for winter ski and the lack of Marriotts now that some of the Streamside went to VRI.

II's system is flooded with Hyatts, Grand Timber, Peak 7, and many others, so the demand is met with plentiful supply. Put in an ongoing search for something in Breck for ski, and you will get it. There are lots of last-minute sightings here on TUG as well.

I know II TURNED DOWN Val Chatelle in their system, when we wanted to dual-affiliate, because we have only six timeshare units in Frisco. They apparently don't need or want more weeks in Summit or Eagle Counties.

Ring....Ring.... MVCI calling.........

If Marriott wanted to keep this top secret a simple NDA signed by the top guys would have stopped this for 4+ years now. Since Marriott wants to keep floating trial balloons then our input is of importance to them.

Selling something you don't have, like a brand new internal exchange system, results in no sales and actually results in fewer timeshare sales - you better believe Marriott is listening to us - they paid dearly for this feedback.

Implementing a fundamentally new way to sell timeshares in the middle of a real estate meltdown is a sign of desperation - the old ways of ambushing Ma and Pa on vacation is getting stale and they are willing to bet MVCI that this new sales scheme will do the job.

Well best of luck Marriott - I know you'll use all the old standard tricks trying to convert owners to the new system that you control and will use as your primary sales tool - Points.

Maybe no one at Marriott told the guys cooking up this scheme that this is absolutely the worst time to implement this. You want to get more money from folks who are hurting - so the salesrep's new job is to call me, the typical Marriott owner and say:

"Hi Perry, Marriott just introduced a new way to own and use your Summit Watch and right now, this very phone call, I am authorized to offer you the following:

• Pre-Release pricing - your Gold Summit Watch's conversion price is 10% of resales which is about $10k or $1,000 - If you give me your credit card number I am authorized to spread the payments over 36 easy payments with NO finance charge - but you must convert this instant.
  
• Your Summit Watch will generate 1,500 Points per year and if you convert today I am authorized to throw in and additional 1,500 Points and 50,000 MRPs - but you must convert this instant.
  
• You will get first access to Summit Watch by 30 days before non Summit Watch owners - but you must convert this instant.
  
• Membership in the new exchange system is NOT transferable unless you buy the super duper membership level (we have many membership levels by the way) and the Platinum level allows you to sell your week and the membership goes with it. I am authorized to make you a Platinum member - but you must convert this instant.

Perry, I could go on and on but just give me your credit card and let's get you going in the future new direction of MVCI. If you don't convert this instant all these goodies evaporate and will NEVER be offered to you again.

So Perry are you going to join at the Platinum Membership Level or pay the mortgage on your house? Which is more important?"

Ok, my American Express card number is .......................

Folks, this is the kind of call you will get and the vast majority of you will buckle like a sand castle when the tide rolls in. You don't stand a chance...

Fletch said:

Ok, so what I heard was NOT a rumor but fact since I heard it direct.

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The thing is, while I'm sure you know what you've heard, it's still just a plan until implimented. I've seen sure fire can't miss information miss just because something was scrapped at the last minute.

scrapngen said:

This is a huge thread to keep up w/ but have you ever said or do you know whether the deeds will stay w/TS owners, or will they give that up for the "privileges" of the new system?? For PP owners, why would they join and give up their certainty of their prime weeks if there is no home resort advantage, and they no longer have a deed?? You did say that those are the people who will benefit most from the new system, I thought. Just wondering how that works...

Thanks for sharing and oh, do let us know if we can get a decent deal to go try out the new Disney Hawaii property

Click to expand...

Keep in mind that some systems allow you to keep your deeded week and allow you to exchange that week into the points system at your discreation.

With DRI, I own a deeded week 36 which is a fixed week/fixed unit week. While this isn't a PP week, it's still a fixed week. After I joined DRI's points based system I am allowed to either keep this week each year or, if I'm not going to use it, deposit it into DRI's points based club in exchange for points.

By contrast when I joined DRI's points based club and put our floating week into it, that week converts to points without my having to call. That week is automtic.

To assume this will be a hard and fast do or don't club is a mistake. It might be something that is extremely flexible and could be of great value to owners. PP week owners may be able to join any new points based program yet retain the right to use their week if they so choose.

dougp26364 said:

Keep in mind that some systems allow you to keep your deeded week and allow you to exchange that week into the points system at your discreation.

With DRI, I own a deeded week 36 which is a fixed week/fixed unit week. While this isn't a PP week, it's still a fixed week. After I joined DRI's points based system I am allowed to either keep this week each year or, if I'm not going to use it, deposit it into DRI's points based club in exchange for points.

By contrast when I joined DRI's points based club and put our floating week into it, that week converts to points without my having to call. That week is automtic.

To assume this will be a hard and fast do or don't club is a mistake. It might be something that is extremely flexible and could be of great value to owners. PP week owners may be able to join any new points based program yet retain the right to use their week if they so choose.

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THanks, being a newbie still, while I have read a lot about points here on TUG, it is still somewhat of a mystery. In many ways I see the advantages of points systems and am actually somewhat optimistic that it would be a great thing for Marriott. Many people like their points systems, and why do we have to assume the worst here - but with all these people feeling threatened, wonder how this will work out. Since I'm "sitting pretty" with PP weeks in Hawaii, according to Fletch and others on this site I'm going to jump on this and do well. But if Marriott in general gets the reputation of some of these other systems that went down this road before, than I still feel worried and my TS may not be so great anymore. The reputation of the Marriott TS's and feelings of good-will are a big part of what we purchased, so if Fletch has already jumped ship and the Starwood people are "chicken-little ing" then...
Shouldn't I at least be paying major attention?

Marriott, if you're listening - make sure this is a win-win for most, or everyone will potentially lose. (yes, even you in the long run, if your reputation in TS gets tarnished)

Fletch said:

Ok, so what I heard was NOT a rumor but fact since I heard it direct.

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If it's a fact, please point me to the official MVCI press release and to the rules and regulations of the program so I can figure out if I made a mistake buying into Marriott...

The fact of the matter, as other pointed out, is that it's a rumor. It satisfies the definition of a "rumor" posted before, as well as the two from Merriam Webster:

ru-mor:
1 : talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2 : a statement or report current without known authority for its truth


There is absolutely no compelling reason to believe this:

Fletch said:

hello ? This is NOT a rumor. I heard it directly from "high up" that everyone was told to get this done by mid June.

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over this:

m61376 said:

While I wasn't wasting vacation time playing on the Internet so was unaware of this thread, I had an interesting discussion while away, very different than what was posted here. I was told that the powers that be had filtered down instructions not even to discuss the rumored points system and that it may never be introduced. My source indicated that the whole thing was quite iffy at this point.

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Two unnamed sources high in the organization - with totally conflicting information... :annoyed:

Marriott salespeople spread this rumor 4 years ago and they have no interest in it dying down. This is absolutely no different than you and your neighbor selling similar houses, you asking for half the price, and your neighbor telling all your potential buyers that your house is haunted or built on a sinkhole... fiction or not, you will have a harder time selling for the low price and they get to justify the higher price.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Marriott is looking at a points system. In fact, the MVCI sales organization would love this and are either spearheading the process or at least have substantial input. This would be a godsend to them.

But MVCI is not just a bunch os salespeople starting from scratch. It's 50 resorts with almost half a million owners. As I pointed out before, for every Hawaii owner who will get 12 days in Orlando you will necessarily have an Orlando owner who gets 3 days in Hawaii. It has to be that way; it's a zero sum game. This is not what existing owners bought into. Inevitably, half of the owners will probably not like it if and when it's launched. The previous poster suggests "make it win-win" - in my opinion that's impossible - not when all existing owners bought into the idea of 7 day exchanges. Moreover, even among the owners who like it at first, the scenario of inventory getting split between Marriott and II is likely to have some of those Marco Island or Hawaii owners who thought they would get 12 days anywhere severely disappointed after the dust settles. The whole system may result in 75% dissatisfied owners not too long after it launches.

I doubt a quarter of a million owners venting on TUG and to everyone they know will help their sales efforts... not with a 7-10 recission period. Word of mouth is a very powerful thing (good and bad). If MVCI and Marriott (not MVCI sales; they have a different agenda) can live with the risk of alienating the majority of MVCI owners, who are among their most loyal and affluent customers, maybe this thing will see the light of day. I happen to think they are smarter than that...

scrapngen said:

THanks, being a newbie still, while I have read a lot about points here on TUG, it is still somewhat of a mystery. In many ways I see the advantages of points systems and am actually somewhat optimistic that it would be a great thing for Marriott. Many people like their points systems, and why do we have to assume the worst here - but with all these people feeling threatened, wonder how this will work out. Since I'm "sitting pretty" with PP weeks in Hawaii, according to Fletch and others on this site I'm going to jump on this and do well. But if Marriott in general gets the reputation of some of these other systems that went down this road before, than I still feel worried and my TS may not be so great anymore. The reputation of the Marriott TS's and feelings of good-will are a big part of what we purchased, so if Fletch has already jumped ship and the Starwood people are "chicken-little ing" then...
Shouldn't I at least be paying major attention?

Marriott, if you're listening - make sure this is a win-win for most, or everyone will potentially lose. (yes, even you in the long run, if your reputation in TS gets tarnished)

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Change scares a lot of people. It scares them so bad they'll stand still when they should move. Most of us here have learned to work the current system to our advantage and now that way of life looks like it will change.

It's possible that some of us have learned to work the current system and get more from it than we own. On the surface a points based system looks to be more equitable and tougher to trade up or get more for your money. The reality is that points systems have the same loop holes to be exploited as any weeks based exchange program. The thing is, if you bought strictly to exchange, you may find yourself poorly positioned to take advantage of a new system.

What you're reading on this thread is a ton of speculation and a lot of fear. It's like the story of chicken little who ran around crying that the sky is falling based on very little solid information that he read the wrong way.

If points systems were evil, they wouldn't be as popular as they are now. Marriott is just about the last major timeshare chain to enter the party, yet everyone seems to assume that Marriott's system will screw current owners over. There seems to be no thought that Marriott might actually take the best of all the other systems and meld it into one super system that outshines all the rest. It's easier to be pessimistic than optimistic and that's what you're reading on this thread.

Sure some owners won't fare as well as others. This is why I've always proffesed that one should buy where they want to own rather than buy just to exchange. The rules for exchange ALWAYS change. If you buy strictly for exchange, be prepared for change or, be prepared to sell and buy again. Buying strictly to exchange is like building your house on the sand instead of the rock. Eventually, a tide will come in and wash your house away.

I think owners like Perry have built their houses on the sand. Now comes the wave of change and they're concerned that their ability to work the system will be lost. If you own a week because you bought that resort, not the promise to exchange into the resorts you really wanted, you'll be fine. If you bought cheap to exchange into more expensive resorts, you may be dissapointed. But fear not, you don't have to join any new program. You can still keep and use your week plus, I.I. isn't going anywhere. It might be that you'll have to consider non-Marriott weeks more often but, you'll still be able to exchange.

It wasn't filtered down an doesn't satisfy the definition of a "rumor". Hey, I have something you might want to look up the definition on ...

DanCali said:

If it's a fact, please point me to the official MVCI press release and to the rules and regulations of the program so I can figure out if I made a mistake buying into Marriott...

The fact of the matter, as other pointed out, is that it's a rumor. It satisfies the definition of a "rumor" posted before, as well as the two from Merriam Webster:

ru-mor:
1 : talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2 : a statement or report current without known authority for its truth


There is absolutely no compelling reason to believe this:



over this:



Two unnamed sources high in the organization - with totally conflicting information... :annoyed:

Marriott salespeople spread this rumor 4 years ago and they have no interest in it dying down. This is absolutely no different than you and your neighbor selling similar houses, you asking for half the price, and your neighbor telling all your potential buyers that your house is haunted or built on a sinkhole... fiction or not, you will have a harder time selling for the low price and they get to justify the higher price.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Marriott is looking at a points system. In fact, the MVCI sales organization would love this and are either spearheading the process or at least have substantial input. This would be a godsend to them.

But MVCI is not just a bunch os salespeople starting from scratch. It's 50 resorts with almost half a million owners. As I pointed out before, for every Hawaii owner who will get 12 days in Orlando you will necessarily have an Orlando owner who gets 3 days in Hawaii. It has to be that way; it's a zero sum game. This is not what existing owners bought into. Inevitably, half of the owners will probably not like it if and when it's launched. The previous poster suggests "make it win-win" - in my opinion that's impossible - not when all existing owners bought into the idea of 7 day exchanges. Moreover, even among the owners who like it at first, the scenario of inventory getting split between Marriott and II is likely to have some of those Marco Island or Hawaii owners who thought they would get 12 days anywhere severely disappointed after the dust settles. The whole system may result in 75% dissatisfied owners not too long after it launches.

I doubt a quarter of a million owners venting on TUG and to everyone they know will help their sales efforts... not with a 7-10 recission period. Word of mouth is a very powerful thing (good and bad). If MVCI and Marriott (not MVCI sales; they have a different agenda) can live with the risk of alienating the majority of MVCI owners, who are among their most loyal and affluent customers, maybe this thing will see the light of day. I happen to think they are smarter than that...

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dougp26364 said:

Change scares a lot of people. It scares them so bad they'll stand still when they should move. Most of us here have learned to work the current system to our advantage and now that way of life looks like it will change.

I think owners like Perry have built their houses on the sand. Now comes the wave of change and they're concerned that their ability to work the system will be lost. If you own a week because you bought that resort, not the promise to exchange into the resorts you really wanted, you'll be fine. If you bought cheap to exchange into more expensive resorts, you may be dissapointed. But fear not, you don't have to join any new program. You can still keep and use your week plus, I.I. isn't going anywhere. It might be that you'll have to consider non-Marriott weeks more often but, you'll still be able to exchange.

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Doug - An excellent summary with some great timeshare advice embedded for those who heed it. Nothing changes like timeshare exchange rules and values. Those that bought based on factors not guaranteed in their base purchase have and will continue to be burned as those outside forces are altered by others and they have zero control. This is not unique to Marriott thus the "buy to use" and purchase as low as you can (usually means resale) mantra's are ones that serve every potential buyer well if they pay attention. Ignoring those for the latest deal on what amounts to a temporary bonus or loophole almost always leads to disappointment in the long run.

Mining the miners....

Ok, Marriott convinced me to spend $1,000, spread over 36 monthly payments and I now have a Platinum Membership. This means that any new Marriott Points I buy become Platinum and get all the benefits of Platinum membership.

(You do know that Platinum, Gold, Silver, and Bronze memberships will be sold - right?)

I want to spend President's week at MountainSide and need 5,500 Points. What do I do?

I "roll forward" my 1,500 points to next year, and then next year get another 1,500 Points and borrow 1,500 Points from the year after next. So next year I have 4,500 Points in my account - I'm short 1,000 Points - what do I do?

Well I have 2 million MRPs from all my past Marriott purchases and 10 MRPs = 1 new Point in the exchange system - I convert 10,000 MRPs to 1,000 exchange Points and now have my 5,500 Points.

Since I'm a Platinum member I get first dibs at making the reservation and snag it. I now have President's week at MountainSide!

Sadly some MountainSide Platinum Plus owners didn't take up the salesrep's advice and become Platinum Member of the new exchange system and are just Gold members - they have to wait for the Platinum Window of 30 days to expire before seeing Gold Member reservations.
-----------------------------

Marriott can cook up any kind of membership they want and integrate it with MRPs just like they do now with weeks. It will look and feel just like the existing week based system moved over to a Points sytem. Marriott just won't be able to help itself and do anything less.

The owners will still grumble and folks like me will still get Platinum Plus Holiday reservations with the new system - because we will master the system and maximize its usage to our benefit. (If it makes sense)

Nothing will change except there will be less inventory to pick from and some owners can't afford to convert will have their usage in II and they will have less choices too.

This is to no owner's advantage but Marriott's sales team which will rake in money form this scheme since they won't be building new Marriotts for years.

It's called "Mining the miners" - Levi Strauss invented it during the California Gold Rush; he made is fortune from all the miners who never struck it rich.

Point System Nothing New for Marriott

When I purchased my timeshares from Marriott, they already offered a 'point system' that influenced my purchase decision. This system was the option to 'exchange' my week for Marriot Rewards points. Over the years, I have been very happy with my timeshare except for the significant devaluation of our rewards points. This was a major cause for dissatisfaction for most of us, and I stopped recommending MVC to friends and family. I am hopeful that Marriott is trying to rectify this situation with this new 'point' system, rather than to milk more dollars from people like me.

Doug- Once again I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you posted. IF Marriott develops the right system, it can be a more equitable system, but it is one thing when a system starts from scratch and everyone knows the rules going in and it is a far different thing when it is superimposed on people accustomed to the way things were. I think the big problem is going to be with lower season owners and/or even Plat. owners at "lesser" resorts who will find that they have to use perhaps multiple weeks to trade into a premium property. And, of course, multiple weeks means multiple MF's.

It will also be a problem with even premium week owners who don't have enough points to trade into what was considered an equal property (if you look at the Asia Pacific program, one Hawaii week can't even trade for another, like for like). As new properties get built or, like the case of Marco Island, need to be sold, Marriott can simply pile on the points to enhance sales; the flip side to that is owners of premium weeks elsewhere won't have enough points to trade into them like for like (size/number of days).

Putting aside the resale/direct issue (although I still feel Marriott should treat all current owners with the same equality as they bought into the system with), I think there are a lot of obstacles to overcome here. It is going to be difficult for Marriott to assign point values that are felt equitable across the board. Are values assigned according to resort demand, selling price (keeping in mind that the time factor may effect a disparity between at least perceived equal valuations of properties and prices), rental prices at Marriott.com or by some other barometer? I would think that setting point valuations based on retail rental prices would be a way of equalizing some of the discrepancies based on construction costs due to the time factor, but of course that would adjust everything to 2010 prices. The issue of point value inflation simply as a sales tool, so that newer weeks cost more to trade into, will increasingly make newer resorts out of the reach of older owners (at least wrt like for like trades). If point allocation was tied to some more independent variable (like relative rental prices, since that reflects supply and demand and, to a certain extent, fair market value), at least it wouldn't just be some arbitrary number which might be used as a sales tool when needed.

For me, at least, maintaining home resort priority and having the point system apply only for exchanges would be a critical point. I would not join under the rules of the Asia Pacific program.

And, if not for the Asia Pacific program, I might be more optimistic like you that an organization like Marriott would be likely to get it right. I am not so sure after seeing that. I can see issues with use and I can foresee issues with MF's. I also think it speaks volumes that Fletch and 4 other top salespeople have abandoned ship, so to speak. I can only hope that some of the powers that be have begun to reconsider (and perhaps that was what my source was referencing) and, if they do in fact introduce a new program, that they take the time to consider all the ramifications and make it as equitable as possible.

PerryM said:

... So Perry are you going to join at the Platinum Membership Level or pay the mortgage on your house? Which is more important?"

Ok, my American Express card number is .......................

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Well geeze, Perry, it's now wonder you're askeered here, you don't know the first thing about Marriott. American Express?!!? You're supposed to use your Marriott VISA to get the MRP! :rofl:

SueDonJ said:

Well geeze, Perry, it's now wonder you're askeered here, you don't know the first thing about Marriott. American Express?!!? You're supposed to use your Marriott VISA to get the MRP! :rofl:

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Ever since I became a member of COSTCO a few months ago I use AE everywhere - but you are correct my Marriott Visa would get the business on that transaction. What was I thinking...

Oh that dirty laundry...

m61376 said:

Doug- Once again I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you posted. IF Marriott develops the right system, it can be a more equitable system, but it is one thing when a system starts from scratch and everyone knows the rules going in and it is a far different thing when it is superimposed on people accustomed to the way things were. I think the big problem is going to be with lower season owners and/or even Plat. owners at "lesser" resorts who will find that they have to use perhaps multiple weeks to trade into a premium property. And, of course, multiple weeks means multiple MF's.

It will also be a problem with even premium week owners who don't have enough points to trade into what was considered an equal property (if you look at the Asia Pacific program, one Hawaii week can't even trade for another, like for like). As new properties get built or, like the case of Marco Island, need to be sold, Marriott can simply pile on the points to enhance sales; the flip side to that is owners of premium weeks elsewhere won't have enough points to trade into them like for like (size/number of days).

Putting aside the resale/direct issue (although I still feel Marriott should treat all current owners with the same equality as they bought into the system with), I think there are a lot of obstacles to overcome here. It is going to be difficult for Marriott to assign point values that are felt equitable across the board. Are values assigned according to resort demand, selling price (keeping in mind that the time factor may effect a disparity between at least perceived equal valuations of properties and prices), rental prices at Marriott.com or by some other barometer? I would think that setting point valuations based on retail rental prices would be a way of equalizing some of the discrepancies based on construction costs due to the time factor, but of course that would adjust everything to 2010 prices. The issue of point value inflation simply as a sales tool, so that newer weeks cost more to trade into, will increasingly make newer resorts out of the reach of older owners (at least wrt like for like trades). If point allocation was tied to some more independent variable (like relative rental prices, since that reflects supply and demand and, to a certain extent, fair market value), at least it wouldn't just be some arbitrary number which might be used as a sales tool when needed.

For me, at least, maintaining home resort priority and having the point system apply only for exchanges would be a critical point. I would not join under the rules of the Asia Pacific program.

And, if not for the Asia Pacific program, I might be more optimistic like you that an organization like Marriott would be likely to get it right. I am not so sure after seeing that. I can see issues with use and I can foresee issues with MF's. I also think it speaks volumes that Fletch and 4 other top salespeople have abandoned ship, so to speak. I can only hope that some of the powers that be have begun to reconsider (and perhaps that was what my source was referencing) and, if they do in fact introduce a new program, that they take the time to consider all the ramifications and make it as equitable as possible.

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The Achilles' heel of a Point based system - dirty laundry.

The downside to adding a Point Based Exchange System will be the ability for Marriott owners to measure their week against other Marriott weeks.

Can you imagine the confusion to find a Gold week at a tropical island worth more Points than a Platinum week at your resort? OMG! And yours cost more to buy from Marriott?

But the salesreps will be well rehearsed with scripts to overcome any objection you can imagine. The solution will always be to buy more Marriott weeks; who knew?

m61376 said:

... I also think it speaks volumes that Fletch and 4 other top salespeople have abandoned ship, so to speak. ...

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I know Fletch has said that he isn't 100% optimistic about some of the features that might be integrated into a new points exchange system, but I'm not certain that it is the only reason for his "jumping ship." For one thing, he said that he didn't like the direction management was taking but didn't specify it was only in regard to this system - didn't he mention Marco Island's pricing structure as an impediment to sales, as well as the relatively recent ROFR stoppage and the development stoppage/suspension that was announced last fall? It stands to reason that it must be very difficult to be a salesperson for Marriott developer inventory in this terrible economy, if you can't honestly tell your prospects that there are newer, bigger, better resorts coming online every day. If you're a good salesperson, which apparently Fletch is, you're going to go where the money is.

Now look where he's going - Fletch is moving on to DVC. It's not like he gave up on Marriott and left for an equal competitor - in this market, DVC is the strongest timeshare out there. It has the benefit of Disney's protection, evidenced by ROFR still being exercised to protect the Disney hotel pricing that competes with DVC, and it also will be opening within months a super-duper spiffy new Hawaii property that will need expert salespersons to sell it to a non-Disney-theme-park clientele. As well, it will be in direct competition with a Marriott property already established at that location. Disney would be crazy to not recruit Marriott's best salespeople right now, and Fletch (and the other top competing salespeople) would be crazy to not go to work for Disney right now. His new job seems to be a match made in heaven.

m61376 said:

... I can only hope that some of the powers that be have begun to reconsider (and perhaps that was what my source was referencing) and, if they do in fact introduce a new program, that they take the time to consider all the ramifications and make it as equitable as possible.

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Reconsider what? I don't think there's any need to reconsider if a system hasn't been rolled out yet. But besides that, I think it's impossible to roll out any system which is completely equitable. No matter what Marriott does - remain as is, announce any of the systems that we've discussed in this thread, or roll out a completely different animal unlike any we've thought of - some owners will be unhappy. You simply can't please everyone, and if they are getting feedback as Fletch says they are that the majority of current owners are unhappy with II, then I hope they do roll something new out. It doesn't make any business sense for them to stay static knowing the majority of their customers are unhappy with a certain aspect of ownership that can be changed.

PerryM said:

The Achilles' heel of a Point based system - dirty laundry.

The downside to adding a Point Based Exchange System will be the ability for Marriott owners to measure their week against other Marriott weeks.

Can you imagine the confusion to find a Gold week at a tropical island worth more Points than a Platinum week at your resort? OMG! And yours cost more to buy from Marriott?

But the salesreps will be well rehearsed with scripts to overcome any objection you can imagine. The solution will always be to buy more Marriott weeks; who knew?

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Can't see that as any different than now when people see different MFs at different resorts that don't seem to "match" the color of their weeks

m61376 said:

Doug- Once again I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you posted. IF Marriott develops the right system, it can be a more equitable system, but it is one thing when a system starts from scratch and everyone knows the rules going in and it is a far different thing when it is superimposed on people accustomed to the way things were. I think the big problem is going to be with lower season owners and/or even Plat. owners at "lesser" resorts who will find that they have to use perhaps multiple weeks to trade into a premium property. And, of course, multiple weeks means multiple MF's.

It will also be a problem with even premium week owners who don't have enough points to trade into what was considered an equal property (if you look at the Asia Pacific program, one Hawaii week can't even trade for another, like for like). As new properties get built or, like the case of Marco Island, need to be sold, Marriott can simply pile on the points to enhance sales; the flip side to that is owners of premium weeks elsewhere won't have enough points to trade into them like for like (size/number of days).

Putting aside the resale/direct issue (although I still feel Marriott should treat all current owners with the same equality as they bought into the system with), I think there are a lot of obstacles to overcome here. It is going to be difficult for Marriott to assign point values that are felt equitable across the board. Are values assigned according to resort demand, selling price (keeping in mind that the time factor may effect a disparity between at least perceived equal valuations of properties and prices), rental prices at Marriott.com or by some other barometer? I would think that setting point valuations based on retail rental prices would be a way of equalizing some of the discrepancies based on construction costs due to the time factor, but of course that would adjust everything to 2010 prices. The issue of point value inflation simply as a sales tool, so that newer weeks cost more to trade into, will increasingly make newer resorts out of the reach of older owners (at least wrt like for like trades). If point allocation was tied to some more independent variable (like relative rental prices, since that reflects supply and demand and, to a certain extent, fair market value), at least it wouldn't just be some arbitrary number which might be used as a sales tool when needed.

For me, at least, maintaining home resort priority and having the point system apply only for exchanges would be a critical point. I would not join under the rules of the Asia Pacific program.

And, if not for the Asia Pacific program, I might be more optimistic like you that an organization like Marriott would be likely to get it right. I am not so sure after seeing that. I can see issues with use and I can foresee issues with MF's. I also think it speaks volumes that Fletch and 4 other top salespeople have abandoned ship, so to speak. I can only hope that some of the powers that be have begun to reconsider (and perhaps that was what my source was referencing) and, if they do in fact introduce a new program, that they take the time to consider all the ramifications and make it as equitable as possible.

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Keep in mind that the only lower season owners who will feel burned are those that bought strictly to work the exchange system. I own a three bedroom lower season silver week. We bought it to use. We enjoyed being in S. Florida in Nov/Dec and that's the season the fit our needs. Thus, I'm not sweating any changes they make.

Now I have been working the system with my studio unit to trade up in size but, again, any new system they come out with isn't likely to change that. What it might change is that I'll be trading that week outside the Marriott system. No big deal. There are plenty of quality units outside the Marriott system. It will cost me the difference between a Marriott to Marriott trade and a Marriott to non-Marriott exchange fee but heck, that discount is down to $30 now anyway. It's not big loss IMHO.

Like you, the AP program disturbs me. At least what I've read about it on this site disturbs me. But there is a way around those inequitable points totals with most points based systems. One can deposit the points required for exchange with Interal, then request the exchange into the desired resorts.

Depositing points for outside exchanges that are really exchanges back into the system aren't anything new. I can manipulate the system with both HGVC and DRI. For instance, with DRI, it's 12,500 pionts for a two bedroom internal exchange into Polo Towers. I can take 7,500 points, deposit them with Interval and get the same 2 bedroom exchange.

Keeping that last paragraph in mind, I'm awarded 12,500 points for my 2 bedroom PT's unit but, I deposit 7,500 points into Interval and then trade back in. I've saved myself 5,000 points for another exchange yet still get to use my full 2 bedroom unit at my home resort. Can you think of any weeks based system where you get to use your week AND get another exchange out of it?

All this the sky is falling stuff is pure bunk until we actually get to see the system. People are panicing when panic isn't warrented. After all, nothing has actually happened yet. All we know is that Marriott sales reps and a couple of other TUG members have heard from higher ups that something will happen. Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell. Personally, since I've learned how to work two points based systems I welcome another one to learn how to manipulate. I recieve GREATER value out of the two points systems I'm in than any weeks based exchange system I own. That includes the two Marriott weeks I own.

DRI's system was of enough value to me I paid $2,995 to join it. What's different about DRI's offer was that those units had become strictly exchange units and the Marriott units we own we bought to use. I doubt that any system Marriott came out with would be worth that much to me but, I can't really say that until I actually lay eyes on what they're offering.

Now I will say that resale buyers have a right to be nervous. Developers have shown a habit of making changes which are not favorable to resale owners. Some eliminate resale buyers from "elite" status, others don't allow full participation in any internal exchange program and some don't allow any participation in internal exhange programs at all unless you buy a developer week. So owners like Perry have a right to be worried.

OTOH, if you buy resale to actually use that partiuclar deeded week or, if you bought it to exchange through I.I., there's not as much to worry about. You still have a deeded week and you still have the rights that go along with that deeded week. Internal Marriott to Marriott exchanges might dry up but, those resorts will still retain their value in the I.I. exchange system. In fact, they might even become more valuable to Interval as the internal exchange system begins to affect the amount of Marriott weeks showing up through Interval.

I doubt this will ever be as bad as Perry wants us to believe. It might not be as good as I'd like to believe. Still, I'm bettnig it's closer to what I'm predicting that the armagedon Perry believes is around the corner.

scrapngen said:

Can't see that as any different than now when people see different MFs at different resorts that don't seem to "match" the color of their weeks

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MFs are not published to my knowledge anywhere but chat rooms - I guess you could ask Marriott what the MFs are at various resorts but they have nothing to do with seasons - they are all the same at the same resort - season means nothing.

Since Marriott seems to be betting their future with an unproven exchange system I have an idea for them - stop selling timeshares - that's right stop selling them.

Instead do what the #1 timeshare does, Disney, and sell RTU instead.

However, at the end of 40 - ?? Years the resort reverts back to whole ownership and the resort is then sold and the proceeds split among the remaining owners.

The problem with timeshares is timeshares. What's 52 1/52 deeds worth? Nothing that's what at the end of the timeshare life cycle. This way the timeshare eventually becomes whole again and just sold and the proceeds are given back to the owners at the end.

Hawaii might be a state that will not allow this but sounds like the rest of the states would not mind.

Anyway Marriott while your betting the farm on this sales gimmick you might reconsider new projects with this new angle - the owners are the owners.

Well folks its been fun for the past 2 weeks debating back at TUG but our Maui vacation is over and its time to make money again. PM me if something earth shattering happens but I'm back at work as of now.

Bye........

PerryM said:

MFs are not published to my knowledge anywhere but chat rooms - I guess you could ask Marriott what the MFs are at various resorts but they have nothing to do with seasons - they are all the same at the same resort - season means nothing.

Since Marriott seems to be betting their future with an unproven exchange system I have an idea for them - stop selling timeshares - that's right stop selling them.

Instead do what the #1 timeshare does, Disney, and sell RTU instead.

However, at the end of 40 - ?? Years the resort reverts back to whole ownership and the resort is then sold and the proceeds split among the remaining owners.

The problem with timeshares is timeshares. What's 52 1/52 deeds worth? Nothing that's what at the end of the timeshare life cycle. This way the timeshare eventually becomes whole again and just sold and the proceeds are given back to the owners at the end.

Hawaii might be a state that will not allow this but sounds like the rest of the states would not mind.

Anyway Marriott while your betting the farm on this sales gimmick you might reconsider new projects with this new angle - the owners are the owners.

Well folks its been fun for the past 2 weeks debating back at TUG but our Maui vacation is over and its time to make money again. PM me if something earth shattering happens but I'm back at work as of now.

Bye........

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I believe all the MF's are available for viewing at Marriott Vacation Clubs website. I know I've looked several of them up there.

Some MF's do vary by resort but, that's only because they divide the property taxes up differently between the seasons. At Ocean Pointe, Platinum season owners pay more of the MF's than do Gold or Silver season owners.

I wouldn't say points based systems are unproven. I bet I could name half a dozen resorts with some form of points based internal exchange systems. Let's see, DRI, Bluegreen, Hilton, DVC, Starwood, Wyndham, Festiva........I could probably go on but, since Marriott has nothing to go on, I'm sure their system will be one of the unproven varitey.

Marriott is already one of the last (maybe is the last) major timeshare chain to consider converting to an internal points based system. Points based reservations system have proven to not only be successful but, they've proven to be popular with the majority of timeshare owners.

SueDonJ said:

Reconsider what? I don't think there's any need to reconsider if a system hasn't been rolled out yet. But besides that, I think it's impossible to roll out any system which is completely equitable. No matter what Marriott does - remain as is, announce any of the systems that we've discussed in this thread, or roll out a completely different animal unlike any we've thought of - some owners will be unhappy. You simply can't please everyone, and if they are getting feedback as Fletch says they are that the majority of current owners are unhappy with II, then I hope they do roll something new out. It doesn't make any business sense for them to stay static knowing the majority of their customers are unhappy with a certain aspect of ownership that can be changed.

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I never meant to imply, btw, that Fletch left because of what he heard about this new program- just that it appears that perhaps he and some of his co-workers did not like the directions that Marriott was going; it was my impression that this may have factored into his decision from something he had posted, unless I misinterpreted his comment.

Nevertheless, I think you missed the point I was making. Since what I was told was quite a bit different than Fletch's information, it may indicate that Marriott is reconsidering the program that they were anticipating rolling out. Since they developed the Asia Pacific points program, it is quite possible and even likely that that was a precursor to their overall points program. I don't know what success it has been met with, but I am guessing that perhaps its reception wasn't what Marriott expected, given the global economic downturn. So, Marriott MAY be reconsidering whether or not to institute a points based program at all (which jives with what I was told) and/or may be reconsidering the details of any future program.

And, I agree- it will be impossible to develop a program that everyone feels is equitable. Hey, the program we currently enjoy isn't equitable to everyone, but it is the program people bought into. So losers in the new program who may have done much better with the old program will be particularly affected. As Doug pointed out, only lower season owners who bought strictly to trade or primarily to trade will potentially be hurt; if you bought to use, regardless of season, you'll always have something nice to fall back on. But the real problem here is Marriott sold many of these units by dangling the ability to trade into other properties at perhaps more convenient vacation times. Of course, this was never written down, but the sales were made based on this understanding. To a large extent many of these customers have managed to get where they wanted to go making perhaps inequitable trades, but they have been relatively happy owners and they have continued to pay their MF's. My concern- and if you look at Starwood's problems I don't think it is a doomsday type forecast, but a realistic concern- is what happens when those lower season owners can no longer get what they consider equitable trades? What happens if even "lesser" Platinum week owners can no longer get trades to Hawaii, ski weeks, the Caribbean, etc.? Will there be widespread defaults?

The flip side is what DanCali has been pointing out- exchange is an equal sum system. IF lower season owners simply don't join the new system and continue using II, then there won't be the extra time that higher season owners could potentially reserve (for a higher season owner to potentially get 2 weeks, for example, it means that 2 single week owners also have to participate). So a top heavy system may make for great internal exchanges among the premium units (that is, until the next premium or next more premium unit that Marirott creates as a sales tool, comes along).

Despite all the doom and gloom here (and, admittedly, I've contributed ) I think this is a good discussion. People like Doug and others have pointed out many of the benefits that a point system can potentially infer. Others have pointed out many of the pitfalls. If I was a betting person (which, actually, I am not), I'd lay odds that somewhere in Marriottville might be perusing this thread and others like it. Although I'm not the same conspiracy theorist as Perry is, I tend to believe that these rumors were released for a reason- to get people used to the idea and likely to get feedback, so they can reconsider program parameters as needed before releasing, so hopefully they will release (IF they decide to ultimately release one) a program with the fewest glitches. I'm guessing they recognize that the Asia Pacific program wasn't what they thought it would be (and I understand that the Ritz points program was a big problem, from what I've heard) and that's why I think they've been treading slowly. I don't think they've been just dangling this idea out for 4 years or so just to annoy people; I think they've wanted to create a program but just recognize that it's very hard to superimpose a program over something that is very functional and that people bought into. It is one thing to buy into something with your eyes open; it is far different to have something changed after you've made a purchase based on a set of rules that you thought would be long lasting. No one likes something forced down their throats, and Marriott has to make darn sure that not too many customers choke on it.

Some of the posters here are right- this could be a fabulous system- since people are pontificating:
- create a system where all owners, regardless of how they purchased, are treated equally for reservations at their home resort and exchanges.
-resale owners currently can't exchange for Marriott Reward points. Create a more equitable exchange for timeshare to reward points (perhaps akin to the incentive offered in the Asia Pacific program to program adopters for the first number of years, but make it long term). Continue only allowing retail buyers to enjoy that perk- that was a perk that always created the difference, so it would be fair to all. Make it the perk it once was- good for sales, good for buyer satisfaction.
-continue with home resort preference.
-tie the point allotment to some entity which conveys relative trade value. Marriott already has this figured out- they change different rates to rent their units depending on location, size, view, time of year, etc. Take the average rack rental rates for each season and use that to formulate the basis of point allotment. As a new resort is released- allocate points based on the relative rental rates of those weeks to the rental rates of others during that time frame (in five years from not rental rates at all resorts will presumably be higher; any new allocation should be based on where the new resort falls on the scale relative to other older resorts). Thus, newer properties only get their fair share of points- they'd truly have to be "better" to receive a lion's share, and not just as a sales tool (like Fletch implied that they were apt to do with Marco). So older premium resorts retain their trade value over time.
-since home resort advantage is retained, MF's remain resort dependent as they are now, and not point dependent as in the Asia Pacific program

Disbanding is hard to do. But RTU gets the buyer zero at the end

PerryM said:

Instead do what the #1 timeshare does, Disney, and sell RTU instead.

However, at the end of 40 - ?? Years the resort reverts back to whole ownership and the resort is then sold and the proceeds split among the remaining owners..

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Actually in a RTU, and specifically at Disney, the only owner will be Disney as no part of the property is deeded to anyone else. So those who have paid BIG annual fees right to that last use year will get exactly zero of whatever the property is worth. And most likely it will be in the millions either as a perfectly maintained condo property (why wouldn't they have it in tip top shape - the RTU long term renters are paying for it!) or simply for the value of the land and development rights. But the DVC users get zero.

The better model for buyers would be a deeded unit with a specific end date at which time the complex would be sold as a whole (the only way to get top dollar) and that amount split between the deeded owners. Now that is a model with value all around. Very few timeshares are set up like that. The majority are going to remain fragmented into 50 + segments with high hurdles, many almost impossible to meet, that require agreement of virtually all owners to dissolve the Association/project. If they fall into serious disrepair or suffer high delinquencies it can be a painfully long process to get it all straightened out. And it may start happening to more and more of the older, smaller resorts as they reach 20-30 years old and owners have moved on, died or tired of the resort. Especially those so-so hotel/motel conversions that were borderline from the start. It can be a real mess.