Recent Destination Club News

Black and Blue

I absolutely love the concept of a Point Based DC with 100% equity ownership - maybe someone will actually start one.

That membership would be close to WorldMark but with more forethought of how the thing should be actually run.

Who knows what the DC industry will morph into but it has a black and blue eye that blue bloods will shun for the rest of time.

Better to start something brand new than try to breath life into DCs.

how many times do we have to say the same thing perry? you never listen to any of us. ever.

luxus vacation properties = only owned homes with no debt and point system
it is literally not possible to be any more conservative.

and again the whole point of DCs is that they are exchange-free.

heh tarheel, i was thinking about checking out their latest financials. sorry for being slow.

my previous account - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/member.php?u=13560
(cant access it, if mods want to merge/etc - whatever works.)

http://www.exclusiveresorts.com/#2009_YIR
http://www.exclusiveresorts.com/images/BR-YIR2009-PROSP.pdf
3259 members
one third empty nesters (attention pwrshift)
379 resignation list (could be worse...)
$360MM "bank" debt (is this worded to exclude private equity?)

VRBO!!!

Kagehitokiri2 said:

how many times do we have to say the same thing perry? you never listen to any of us. ever.

luxus vacation properties = only owned homes with no debt and point system
it is literally not possible to be any more conservative.

and again the whole point of DCs is that they are exchange-free. everything else varies.

heh tarheel, i was thinking about checking out their latest financials. sorry for being slow.

my previous account - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/member.php?u=13560
(cant access it, if mods want to merge/etc - whatever works.)

http://www.exclusiveresorts.com/#2009_YIR
http://www.exclusiveresorts.com/images/BR-YIR2009-PROSP.pdf
3259 members
one third empty nesters (attention pwrshift)
379 resignation list (could be worse...)
$360MM "bank" debt (is this worded to exclude private equity?)

Click to expand...

I actually believe that the guys who cooked up all the crazy DC schemes out there had something - folks want to fork over vast sums of money on risky ventures as long as the person on the other end of the line makes booking a villa easy.

I've been exposed to probably 20+ folks in the past 2 weeks who spend $1,500+ per day for a nice Maui Condo and love VRBO - they trust it and love the selection.

This absolutely floored me and next week I'll be listing in VRBO myself; I listened too much to DC folks!

I mean these folks absolutely love and believe in VRBO and use it all the time.

Anyway, DCs are dead and folks who want easy bookings will have fewer and fewer DCs to choose from. The real estate market is nowhere near bottoming out; neither are DCs.

why i even bothered addressing you i dont know... carry on.

if you want to rent, do DC trials for ~$1K/nt >
- quintess - raffles canouan (~$12K+) la samanna (~$5K+) amangani (~$5K+)
- exclusive resorts - ritz carlton grand cayman, sea island resort, ritz carlton fort lauderdale
- banyan tree private collection - banyan tree seychelles (~$4K+)

potentially the most interesting "hybrid" - belvedere @ karma kandara >
DC-style use + rental income from owned hotel condo/villa + possible quintess exchange

btw, just looked at PH towers rates - 4BR upper 12/25-1/1 AAA $6,307.84. did you stay at PH towers this past NYE? if you did, you didnt happen to tour residences did you? keep hope alive for low min lease. mandarin oriental is 6 months. better than 12, but still a bummer.

Is an argument more persuasive if you just throw out (usually extreme) opinions as fact? Maybe I should say timeshares are dead, because the biggest player, Marriott, is not developing them and have been taking a beating from the sector. Sure I could say that and it's nice because it sounds black and white, but it's not reality.

As mentioned on DC4MS, Crescendo had a points based system, A&K does not. As a result, I've done both. I understand the fairness based arguments behind the points based system. In fact, I've made that point myself before, and that system is very important in a timeshare system where you're selling out 52 weeks a year, and really need to manage that kind of demand. However, after trying out the new system, I've really liked not having to worry about high season/low season, holiday/non-holiday. I book what I want to book without having to spend my points based currency. I've certainly traveled on a lot more holidays as a result.

As folks have pointed out before (e.g., Kage), points based systems are good for people that have the flexibility/desire to travel non-holiday, non-high season times, because you can get a lot of extra days essentially. However, it's not so good for those in the opposite camp (usually families with children), as you're paying a lot for when you typically can travel.

VRBO is good for selection, bad for consistency in quality. With a DC, you know exactly what you're getting every time. You know that you've got a destination host that is keeping the house up (and is there if something goes wrong) and giving you the most current recommendations for a destination, because they live there. I know what kitchen utensils I'm going to have. I know that there will be an office with high speed internet access and a printer with paper and printer cartridges. I'm sure a lot of people don't care about those things and love VRBO, but that's why they have different products for different people.

I Don't Love VRBO - But I no longer trust DC business model

TarheelTraveler said:

I'm sure a lot of people don't care about those things and love VRBO, but that's why they have different products for different people.

Click to expand...

I don't love VRBO at all. It is a PITA. It is a lot of work. You can't search for availability. You can look at online calendars one at a time, but you can't count on them to be accurate. You email people and wait for a response or play phone tag. There are no quality standards.

If I could search for A platinum-rated 2-bedrooom within 5 minutes walk of {slopes, beach, Central park, etc.} for certain dates - maybe then I can take the risk. If there is something out there like this, please tell me where to find it!

There is an opening for someone to develop something meaningful.

Whatever you want to say about Perry, I think he is right that the Destination Club concept is dead. If someone took that model and just sold it on a per-night basis, with no big up-front deposit, maybe there is a market for that, but I suspect the per-night costs would be up there like Quintessentially chalets & villas. The Destination Clubs as currently structured have way too high of overhead expenses and sales expenses that were funded from the membership deposits and predicated on real estate appeciation and borrowing. Everything that Tousignant has done has been based on deception and manipulation. I predict that UE is going to have a dramatic crash and burn in 2010.

Basement management?

Can DC's, the ones still alive, make it through the real estate debacle?

Personally I don't think they can but timeshares will survive - mom and pop versus Fortune 500 companies running them. It's that simple.

The DC industry has just imploded and to try to revive a fallen deck of cards is just a waste of time because folks will be gun-shy for many years to come once we rebound.

Better to morph into something brand new - how about a Point Based Co-op where management gets paid a salary and owners put up venture cash to own homes/villas and they share in all potential revenue?

Why the same old DC model of hucksters running a DC out of their basement?

P.S.

If you guys have time on your hands while real estate keeps puking it's guts out draw up the documents for a new DC replacement. Don't wait for hucksters to jump out of the basement with slick advertising and slick salesreps calling folks on the phone again.

PerryM, again, luxus.

TarheelTraveler, my best might have been >

points are better for people who want more travel time - lower season, cheaper accommodation, or both.

no points are better for people who want more expensive stuff - holidays, expensive accommodation, or both.
no points also means unlimited free use is possible.

Click to expand...

as mentioned you can use DC trials to access luxury resorts/hotels, and ive also seen plenty of private rentals. (at a discount) for example >
- four seasons punta mita (hotel villas and fractional condos)
- setai miami (condohotel)
- four seasons sharm el sheikh (hotel villas and hotel condos)

***

high end rental companies, compiled on 11/10/09 >

all properties include local host and daily housekeeping
- Chalet Spa $1.7K > $32K+ (includes butler, chef)
- Villazzo $2K > $29K (includes transfers, bellstaff at arrival/departure, unpacking)
- Homes Away $700 > $6.6K+

inclusions/staff varies
~ Scott Dunn (some with nannies and catering)
~ Abercrombie & Kent $165 > $5.1K [used EU site at time, i believe they have new villas since then]
~ there are lots of catered chalets in europe

new from villazzo (no inclusions, weekly housekeeping)
x Villazzo V Villas $1.5K > $12K

Track Records this time around

When the original hucksters cooked up DCs in the basements back around 2005 they had no track record to fight - this time around they have a dismal track record to fight.

DC's have proven to be a horrible real estate gimmick and I guess the remaining DCs can fight their past performance but why?

Cook up something different....

DC's for the most part are just a few pages of legal stuff - easy to make something else on those same few pages.

is it hard to never address anything else that is said? or do you literally not even read it?

i personally define DC as exchange-free. thats it.

thinking about it, those residence exchange things could be more like a DC if they required a huge minimum "deposit" (of days in a residence). and of course they have to make it a legal entity, which i dont think any of them has mentioned so far.

re ultra high end exchange

Kagehitokiri said:

the only thing that would be really new would be a TTT-style setup that is exclusively ultra high end. (like properties that arent allowed to be rented out, but could be exchanged.)

Click to expand...

SciFrog said:

Ultra high end and trade doesn't work.

I would never let anyone else but me and guests in an ultra high end home...

Click to expand...

Kagehitokiri said:

trading like for like...

plaza NY 9.2Kft2 6/15/07 $51.5MM
MO NY 8.3K ft2 3BR 12/14/05 $30MM (similar unit "quietly" for sale for $80MM)
st regis san francisco 20K ft2 $30MM 12/05 (on market for $49MM)
RC central park 10.2K ft2 5BR 1/5/07 $27MM
trump NY 6.3K ft2 3/5/08 $26MM
montage laguna beach 4BR 7/17/09 $17.7MM

on market >
mark NY 9.8Kft2 5BR $60MM
RC grand cayman 20K ft2 $44MM
MO boston 8K ft2 $17MM

Click to expand...

very nice upgrades for EE http://www.sherpareport.com/destination-clubs/new-homes-equity-estates-0210.html
question as always - where do they stand on owned/leased

equity, varying
- AK
- m private residences
- hideaways club
- EE
- luxus vacation properties
- rocksure (third fund - euro capitals - is larger than first two)

nonequity, backed?, not out of woods
- ER
- Q

other nonequity
- UE (all news is bad news)
- oyster circle (no news is bad news)

PerryM said:

Can DC's, the ones still alive, make it through the real estate debacle?

Personally I don't think they can but timeshares will survive - mom and pop versus Fortune 500 companies running them. It's that simple.

Click to expand...

Call me crazy but I thought Ritz-Carlton/Marriott was a Fortune 500 company and A&K was a $1 Billion/year revenue company, with thousands of employees. Do those companies count as mom and pop companies run by people working out of their basement?

Let's also look back at history. Weren't timeshare companies for the most part started by a bunch of fly by night hucksters? I never would've thought that timeshares would overcome the terrible reputation that they had, but low and behold, you get a Disney and a Marriott and a Hilton, and then all of a sudden it's big business with at least some degree of credibility.

i wasnt going to bring it up, but when RC DC discussion started on DC4MS, PerryM was posting about how >
1 - it was greatest thing ever (ignoring point system and subsidy)
2 - it was the end of all other DCs (even though it being unsold fractional inventory = not necessarily that DC like)
3 - he was going to buy resale for $1 or something (no ROFR from marriott, what?)

not to mention DCs couldnt cover costs because they were too cheap.

timeshare model is to charge AMAZING ripoff prices of crappy condos, both up front, and then on a yearly basis. they rely on people not understanding (in the VAST majority of the time) that it is such a ripoff. then once they make the first sale, they dont care, because they have the yearly income forever.

at least with fractionals you can have luxury products at not that high a markup.

A DC Reunion!

It's just like old times on DC4MS with the likes of Tarheel, PerryM, Bourne, PShift & Kage discussing the validity of the Destination Club concept! All we need is Steamboat to complete the conversation.

Good Memories and good times ... except for the money loss ... and the fraud ... and the personal attacks ... and the lawsuits ... and ....

BUT ... the travel was AWESOME while it lasted!!

"exchange-free" as a model is pretty simple, regardless of successful implementation.

for the lawyers - http://blog.bluestonelawfirm.com/legal-malpractice-news-escrow-and-legal-malpractice.html

My definition of DC form bygone years...

Kagehitokiri2 sent me some links that appear to be the next evolution of DC's - companies that accept your whole/fractional/timeshare and create a currency (Points) that you get when someone stays at your unit (some give some cash too). You then take the currency you just earned and can spend at other units in the club.

I believe that I presented the same idea 3+ years ago either here or on DC4M - it's a good idea! Is it a DC though? I don't think it is but that's just semantics.

As long as you own equity in the "club" and it can't be taken away from you then these clubs are the successors to the old DCs.

Here's the list and its fun reading:

http://www.sherpareport.com/destinat...ches-1209.html
http://www.thecimacollection.com/
http://www.worldkeyclub.com/
http://www.tradetotravel.com/

I only spent a total of 15 minutes reading them and will read more carefully next week.

To me the definition of a DC club was and will always be:

"8 guys get together and buy a rich guy a villa and then pay him rent to use it" - I said that 3+ years ago.

If the industry wants to move past that definition into something else they need to drop the anchor Destination Club which will always be tied back to an idea that just didn't work - especially in imploding real estate markets.

These new clubs are worthy of investigation. I just hope that when I do get time to understand them I don't find the guy who cooked up High Country Club behind one or more of them.

anyone can define DCs/anything however they want, but that doesnt make it accurate.

with DCs pretty much the only thing that is universal is exchange-free use. hence my use of "DC-style usage" to mean exchange-free.

TTT has been around a long time. along with other home exchange things. and some of the fractional exchange companies. not to mention timeshare ones.

demeure is talking about buying properties. that makes it more than an exchange network, which is what the others linked are. but that doesnt make demeure a DC. because deposits of time are uneven. (1 day > 1 year, etc)

why did i send it? i dont know. im a glutton for punishment? mainly because you keep saying all this stuff that has nothing to do with anything. on the rare occasion you participate in a conversation, you contribute interesting stuff.

It's a little like the DC4MS guys left the nest to go out on their own and had to come back home after the outside world didn't work out their way. Welcome home ... be sure you make your own beds and pay rent.

It really was fun while it lasted, but a lot of people got hurt along the way...and those that didn't are very unsure about their future. Sure glad I 'own' my Marriotts. And, hey TG ... no shag carpets anymore.

travelguy said:

A DC Reunion!

It's just like old times on DC4MS with the likes of Tarheel, PerryM, Bourne, PShift & Kage discussing the validity of the Destination Club concept! All we need is Steamboat to complete the conversation.

Good Memories and good times ... except for the money loss ... and the fraud ... and the personal attacks ... and the lawsuits ... and ....

BUT ... the travel was AWESOME while it lasted!!

Click to expand...

how many people are posting? not many.

i rejoined to mention luxus in response to PerryM.

AFAIK a lot of UE members got pretty organized a while ago with some email lists/exchanges.

ER members have their own forum. they, Q, AK, EE (members) are happy at the moment. while the first two of those may not be totally out of the woods, they appear to have backing. same with AK, and their model is more much more conservative. for me the unanswered question re EE is what is contractually linked to debt payments.

pwrshift said:

It really was fun while it lasted, but a lot of people got hurt along the way...and those that didn't are very unsure about their future. Sure glad I 'own' my Marriotts. And, hey TG ... no shag carpets anymore.

Click to expand...

I gotta say that there is some relief in knowing the fate of my DC, regardless of the outcome. IMO, It's better to know your DC is dead than continue to pay dues without knowing the final outcome. The toughest part of the HCC saga was the last half year when we had to make backup plans for all travel because HCC was so day-to-day.

I am still actively looking for a "safer" and "affordable" DC because I've become addicted to luxury accommodations. I continue 12 weeks annually of Timeshare and Fractional travel in the interim.

PShift - Note that I now occasionally travel with a 5 pound Yorkie puppy! I'll change my avatar to his picture as soon as I can find a "Team USA" hat small enough to fit him.

Kagehitokiri2 said:

i rejoined to mention luxus in response to PerryM.

Click to expand...

As you mentioned before, you ARE a glutton for punishment!

Kagehitokiri2 said:

ER members have their own forum. they, Q, AK, EE (members) are happy at the moment. while the first two of those may not be totally out of the woods, they appear to have backing. same with AK, and their model is more much more conservative. for me the unanswered question re EE is what is contractually linked to debt payments.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure "Happy" is the right word. Maybe just not as "concerned" as before?

As we've discussed elsewhere at length, I have major questions on the EE biz plan that they have never answered and seem to have sidestepped.

travelguy said:

I gotta say that there is some relief in knowing the fate of my DC, regardless of the outcome.

Click to expand...

There are a lot of UE members who would like to be in that position - though some of them don't understand how tenuous it is, or have blind faith.

Now that UE has published its financials, there is no way that UE's debt load or business model is sustainable, and the public markets voted not to give them more capital.

It is going to be like watching a car crash in slow motion.

UE will be coming back to members with either another special assessment or a significant increase in dues. No one else with give them more money. And if the members give more money again, they still have no equity and no control.

travelguy - fractional travel?

just got a PM from UE member saying what email list. how did you miss it on DC4MS?
these are the two i could find >
ultimateescapee [at] yahoo.com
dcmembergroup [at] gmail.com

ultimateescapee@yahoo.com does not work

Kagehitokiri2 said:

got a PM from UE member saying what email list. how did you miss it on DC4MS?
these are the two i could find >
ultimateescapee [at] yahoo.com
dcmembergroup [at] gmail.com

Click to expand...

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

ultimateescapee@yahoo.com

Technical details of permanent failure:
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 554 554 delivery error: dd Sorry your message to ultimateescapee@yahoo.com cannot be delivered. This account has been disabled or discontinued [#102]. - mta1064.mail.sk1.yahoo.com (state 18).

You can search with date range, size with VRBO

AKTHUE said:

I don't love VRBO at all. It is a PITA. It is a lot of work. You can't search for availability. You can look at on line calendars one at a time, but you can't count on them to be accurate. You email people and wait for a response or play phone tag. There are no quality standards.

If I could search for A platinum-rated 2-bedroom within 5 minutes walk of {slopes, beach, Central park, etc.} for certain dates - maybe then I can take the risk. If there is something out there like this, please tell me where to find it!

There is an opening for someone to develop something meaningful.

Whatever you want to say about Perry, I think he is right that the Destination Club concept is dead. If someone took that model and just sold it on a per-night basis, with no big up-front deposit, maybe there is a market for that, but I suspect the per-night costs would be up there like Quintessentially chalets & villas. The Destination Clubs as currently structured have way too high of overhead expenses and sales expenses that were funded from the membership deposits and predicated on real estate appreciation and borrowing. Everything that Tousignant has done has been based on deception and manipulation. I predict that UE is going to have a dramatic crash and burn in 2010.

Click to expand...

You can use VRBO to search for specific date range, size, number of beds etc.... This is a new feature and you just may not be famliar with their web site updates due to not using the service.

Also, another note - I never rent a VRBO unit unless it has a professional property manager due to the quality and service issue. If you rent only professionally managed units that have a standard rating system - then you are offered a significant piece of mind.

I have to admit to owning a slope side condo that we rent via VRBO and it is professionally managed - I do not handle keys, cleaning, repairs, lock outs etc... It does cost us some commission dollars, but I had a bad VRBO experience once and it is worth the money to me to insure a good vacation.

We use VRBO often for our own trips and have had wonderful experiences, I think if I can rent a slope side or beach front unit for 30% to 50% from published rates - why would I not save the cash? If it is professional managed and with the internet search available today - I can sleep at night knowing that all is well with my vacation!

The DC club was of slight interest to our family, but we determined with the cost of entry - we could just cough up additional funds and just purchase a unit that we loved, then use VRBO and timeshare for our other vacation needs. But it all takes time, regardless of your portfolio...

availability search was always possible on homeaway, and after they bought VRBO/others, they have added it to at least VRBO so far.

Floridaski said:

I never rent a VRBO unit unless it has a professional property manager

I have to admit to owning a slope side condo that we rent via VRBO and it is professionally managed

We use VRBO often...if I can rent a slope side or beach front unit for 30% to 50% from published rates - why would I not save the cash? If it is professional managed

Click to expand...

"published rates"? you mean hotel/resort managed? i would not use "professional property manager" when talking about hotels/resorts. and with villa rental companies, clearly there is full spectrum. > http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=871962&postcount=33