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Marriott Aruba Ocean Club Owners Being Ripped Off By Marriott - READ IF AN OWNER

SueDonJ

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Sure, you're welcome, but it's a point I conceded as a general rule way up there in post #2443. I still wonder why/how you think taping tomorrow's specific meeting would be helpful, considering that its sole purpose is a legal action (yes or no monkey votes, as you said) and no deviation from the agenda will be allowed.
 

modoaruba

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Sure, you're welcome, but it's a point I conceded as a general rule way up there in post #2443. I still wonder why/how you think taping tomorrow's specific meeting would be helpful, considering that its sole purpose is a legal action (yes or no monkey votes, as you said) and no deviation from the agenda will be allowed.

I would like not only tomorrow's meeting taped but all of future meetings taped.
Tomorrow is a good start as any.
I just find it helpful being an observer as to what goes on with my investment in the hands of those in charge.
You can look at it as to my entertainment if need be to avoid an argument.
 

lovearuba

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transparency you say

I would like not only tomorrow's meeting taped but all of future meetings taped.
Tomorrow is a good start as any.
I just find it helpful being an observer as to what goes on with my investment in the hands of those in charge.
You can look at it as to my entertainment if need be to avoid an argument.

Some folks think we shouldnt expect transparency, board transactions should be private and the voting process should be suspect. IN any event, I of course agree there should be transparency and starting with taping the meetings would go a long way.

Not to get too far off topic, I was speaking to someone at work today who mentioned that Aruba beaches are currently experiencing signficant waves, almost enough to surf in. Does anyone know if this is true?
 

modoaruba

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Some folks think we shouldnt expect transparency, board transactions should be private and the voting process should be suspect. IN any event, I of course agree there should be transparency and starting with taping the meetings would go a long way.

Not to get too far off topic, I was speaking to someone at work today who mentioned that Aruba beaches are currently experiencing signficant waves, almost enough to surf in. Does anyone know if this is true?

I heard that Venezuela got an earthquake today.
 

Dean

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I would like not only tomorrow's meeting taped but all of future meetings taped.
Tomorrow is a good start as any.
I just find it helpful being an observer as to what goes on with my investment in the hands of those in charge.
You can look at it as to my entertainment if need be to avoid an argument.
While I see the point and don't disagree in some aspects, there are some issues of business that may be handled at a BOD meeting that you don't necessarily want widely available. For the yearly general meeting it is likely OK but I would not think it appropriate for general BOD meetings to tape them just like it isn't appropriate to have the minutes distributed to be used by outside forces.

Looks like Marriott or the board, not sure who is paying, is wasting money again by hiring a Parliamentarian for the meeting on Saturday. It’s bad enough they are holding this special meeting on Saturday so few owners can show up, since it is the major transition day. Now more money being spent on this person. Until the last meeting this person was never there and the president ran the meeting. Why is the board so afraid, to let the few owners who can be there, speak about their property and their concerns.
As noted this is normal procedure required because Marriott and the BOD have been put in this situation. You have to lay the blame and cost at the feet of those that forced it, that would be you I believe. It was a predictable expense as are many other extra costs that someone will have to pay and if you think Marriott is going to ante up on their own with free extra money, think again. ASAMOF, don't be surprised if there is an additional new Special Assessment because of the proceedings.
 

lovearuba

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right

While I see the point and don't disagree in some aspects, there are some issues of business that may be handled at a BOD meeting that you don't necessarily want widely available. For the yearly general meeting it is likely OK but I would not think it appropriate for general BOD meetings to tape them just like it isn't appropriate to have the minutes distributed to be used by outside forces.

As noted this is normal procedure required because Marriott and the BOD have been put in this situation. You have to lay the blame and cost at the feet of those that forced it, that would be you I believe. It was a predictable expense as are many other extra costs that someone will have to pay and if you think Marriott is going to ante up on their own with free extra money, think again. ASAMOF, don't be surprised if there is an additional new Special Assessment because of the proceedings.

so the next special assessment will be dedicated to Mark
 

modoaruba

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While I see the point and don't disagree in some aspects, there are some issues of business that may be handled at a BOD meeting that you don't necessarily want widely available. For the yearly general meeting it is likely OK but I would not think it appropriate for general BOD meetings to tape them just like it isn't appropriate to have the minutes distributed to be used by outside forces.

As noted this is normal procedure required because Marriott and the BOD have been put in this situation. You have to lay the blame and cost at the feet of those that forced it, that would be you I believe. It was a predictable expense as are many other extra costs that someone will have to pay and if you think Marriott is going to ante up on their own with free extra money, think again. ASAMOF, don't be surprised if there is an additional new Special Assessment because of the proceedings.

I don't agree with closed door meetings.I don't think that there are double secret agendas that no one should know about.We are not that important in the scheme of things.If transparancy via taped meetings were available maybe a lot of speculations can be laid to rest as I stated before.It might also keep our representatives in check knowing we are watching and listening.

You also speculate as to who is going to pay what.You might be right but why make such a statement as fact?

That is one reason I would like taping the meetings.No one can make statements other than what transpired.
 

Dean

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I don't agree with closed door meetings.I don't think that there are double secret agendas that no one should know about.We are not that important in the scheme of things.If transparancy via taped meetings were available maybe a lot of speculations can be laid to rest as I stated before.It might also keep our representatives in check knowing we are watching and listening.

You also speculate as to who is going to pay what.You might be right but why make such a statement as fact?

That is one reason I would like taping the meetings.No one can make statements other than what transpired.
Would you agree there is sometime company information that would hurt the resort and/or company if it were known by competitors or potential contractors? I'd bet that the BOD oath actually pertains to such information. My statements on payment are pretty broad and clearly posted as prediction and expectation. I do not believe they are not specific enough for the issue of fact or opinion to be applicable but if it's helpful, consider it my opinion.
 

modoaruba

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Would you agree there is sometime company information that would hurt the resort and/or company if it were known by competitors or potential contractors? I'd bet that the BOD oath actually pertains to such information. My statements on payment are pretty broad and clearly posted as prediction and expectation. I do not believe they are not specific enough for the issue of fact or opinion to be applicable but if it's helpful, consider it my opinion.

Aren't the meetings open to the owners who happen to be there?If so what is to prevent a stooge from attending to gather this secret information.Anyone walking through the resort can come up with a name of an owner if attendence is taken.I don't know if they "proof" the attendees.

As far as fact or opinion,you can see for yourself that many posts address issues as if by factual language without any knowledge of the fact since they were not privi to such information.IMO
 

Dean

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Aren't the meetings open to the owners who happen to be there?If so what is to prevent a stooge from attending to gather this secret information.Anyone walking through the resort can come up with a name of an owner if attendence is taken.I don't know if they "proof" the attendees.

As far as fact or opinion,you can see for yourself that many posts address issues as if by factual language without any knowledge of the fact since they were not privi to such information.IMO
I doubt all BOD meetings are open or if they are, that the actual work is done in those meetings but I don't know for certain how they are set up. I'll defer to others on that. However, I'll stick to my idea that there are items that it would be best for others not to know for the protection of the resort and company.

When I see a post on such a forum, I assume what someone says is their opinion, unless they specifically quote items or state as fact, please feel free to treat my post the same in every case so consider this a blanket statement that means either IMO or in my understanding where applicable. While I may use IMO at times for emphasis, I believe most people read things knowing that a statement by any joe blow is their opinion or interpretation, it may also happen to be fact. For example on several threads fairly recently the "INTENT" of certain publications and actions was posted on this thread. That is clearly opinion though in those cases they likely believe their statements of Marriott intent, are fact. Funny people only use this ploy when questioning someone saying something they don't like, it's usually an attempt to discredit the messenger rather than dealing the issues. Given I'm a bystander to a degree without a dog in this particular fight, I have no vested interest in the specifics of this case though I do believe there are implications for all Marriott owners and all Aruba owners.
 

Dean

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Respectively,point taken.
LOL, Beer's on me when we can get together. Last year was my first visit to Aruba though I've owned in Aruba in one way or another for almost 15 years. We stayed at La Cabana and the Surf Club. Recently got an exchange back to Aruba for Jan, 2011 also at the SC (OS again,not GV) and that's the ONLY resort we listed as we did not list the Ocean Club in that search. Why one may ask, simple, Wife said so because it's lazy river or nothing for her for that trip LOL.
 

tlwmkw

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Haven't chimed in here in a while but I do see a new element to the discussion where I can give some advice. Regarding taping/videoing the meetings that is entirely appropriate and I think that the board would do that without any problem. If there is any "confidential" information then the board goes into "Executive session" which means that all minutes (if there even are any) are sealed and not discoverable in the case of a lawsuit or anyone else trying to get that information. At that point the room is cleared of all but board members and all recording devices are turned off. This is standard procedure with any board (I've been on a couple) and is not an attempt to " hide" anything but rather it protects sensitive or potentially litigious information. The official minutes would read "The board now went into Executive session" and there would be no information as to what was discussed. The concerned owners will probably still say this is a lack of transparency but this is standard practice for all types of boards and is simply to protect the company/timeshare/homeowners, or whatever type of board it is. You should try to see if the meeting can be taped. You may be surprised and find they are willing to do that without any argument. The only problem will be if they have specific rules against it but I have never heard of a board that had such a rule. If you plan to do this then you'll need to act soon so that it can be arranged. From my experience you'll probably find that the tape will be quite boring to watch and I doubt you will get much out of it.

Another thing that anyone attending the meeting should know is that at an official board meeting only board members are allowed to speak. Occasionally there is a topic about which they want opinions from the constituents and they then either survey prior to the meeting or allot a period of time at the meeting for comments- each speaker only gets their given time and then they have to stop speaking. This can all be read about in Roberts rules of order (which deals with how meetings should be run)- the parliamentarian will be at the meeting to ensure that these standardized rules are properly followed.

tlwmkw.
 

modoaruba

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LOL, Beer's on me when we can get together. Last year was my first visit to Aruba though I've owned in Aruba in one way or another for almost 15 years. We stayed at La Cabana and the Surf Club. Recently got an exchange back to Aruba for Jan, 2011 also at the SC (OS again,not GV) and that's the ONLY resort we listed as we did not list the Ocean Club in that search. Why one may ask, simple, Wife said so because it's lazy river or nothing for her for that trip LOL.

Love to have a beer with you.
We stayed at the SC last September for the first time.We exchanged a 1BR OC for a 2BR SC so we could bring family.
Was a great time of year,very quiet and uncrowded.The lazy river was delightful.
Interesting to note that after 15 years of ownership you've only been there once.If you're like us,it'll grow on you.Nothing not to like.
 

ecwinch

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I do think tlwmkw covered the procedural issues in his post, which is spot on. As noted, most states recognize that for certain topics (i.e. personnel, legal, etc), the use of executive session is appropriate.

From my read of the special meeting notice, it seems that the meeting has been called - either directly or in response to - by the concerned owners group.

And a special meeting process - by it's very nature - is supposed to be specifically limited to the business outlined in the special meeting notice. So why the complaint on the use of proper procedure to ensure the agenda is properly adhered to?
 

marksue

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Tried to video

So owners tried to video tape the open meeting, but Frank Knox would not let them. He made a statement that he works for a bank and could not be photographed. Also said something about potential kidnapping. Give me a break Frank. Resign and get off the board if you do not want to be held accountable. Frank, Jamie Dimon is on camera all the time. Why are you so special?

Also in the meeting Marriott made a statement that the owners have a way to correspond to each other and that is through TUG. Im sure TUG likes that. I do not know why Marriott does not want he owners to communicate. They have to be afraid. So , Marriott you are reading this, answer the question why are you afraid of the owners communicating with each other.
 
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marksue

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owner observation of AOC Special Meeting

My observations are Marriott has a puppet board and they, Marriott do not want any dissension. I don't know what their agenda is but a free flow of information is not one of them. The board does not have the guts or smarts to hold a meeting as evidenced by them hiring a parliamentarian who really ran the meeting. She was the rudest person I have met in a long time and immediately set the tone of protecting the board and Marriott and screw you owners in the audience. No one liked her that I talked to and the whole meeting was a railroad job. Sooner or later, our Concerned Owners membership is going to grow, and there will be a day of reckoning, and I would hope the board would nominate someone from our group to provide another side of the issues. The most disturbing thing to me was the alleged refusal of Aruba Today to run an ad recognizing our organization because Marriott allegedly threatened to refuse Aruba Today from being distributed on any of their properties.
 
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marksue

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Letter to Me Marriott William Shaw and Arnie Sorenson

I just returned from Aruba and want to report to you, probably the most egregious tactic of your MVCI division in their attempt to silence owner debate. The Concerned Owners group had placed the ad noted below in the Aruba Today Newspaper to allow owners an opportunity to keep informed and share communications.

I went to the newspaper on Friday and was told that the Editor wanted to speak to me. She then informed my that the ad which had been running for several weeks had to be stopped because she had gotten a call from MVCI which stated that if they continued to run the ad that Marriott would not allow the distribution of Aruba Today on their properties in Aruba.

I can understand the newspapers position, Marriott is a very important client on this small island. I just want to express my continued disbelief in the tactics and motives of your MVCI division. This latest effort along with MVCI retaining for the second time a world renown Parliamentarian to run an owner meeting has only increased the mistrust of the Marriott name with owners asking: What are they afraid of ?

I am confident that you are unaware of this latest action and I still am hopeful, but somewhat dismayed that I have not received an acknowledgement to my letter dated December 4, 2009 to resolve these concerns.

Regards,


Below is the ad to run in Aruba Today.

ATTENTION

Marriott Aruba Ocean Club Owners

Join over 1,000 fellow week owners & register at

aocconcernedowners.com

created by owners to

Keep informed & learn the facts
 
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marksue

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letter to parliamentarian

As one of the world renown Parliamentarian experts you state on your web site noted above - you assist organizations, improving effectiveness and building strong teams. Unfortunately, what I witnessed at Saturdays special meeting of the Marriott Aruba Ocean club was far from that. I would appreciate if you could inform the owners (who I understand you were hired as a neutral party) on how we can appeal a decision of the Board and or the Parliamentarians ruling if we see an error.

At yesterday's meeting several of the points noted by the Board/MVCI and or their legal representatives were just not factual. How can an owner dispute this and find out the truth? W#e should have an opportunity to prove this. Do we have to wait for the annual meeting or can something be done now?

In the future, as the ruling authority - everyone in the room should be informed about the process. As you note on your card - there is an appeal process. What is that and should owners have been informed about this at the meeting.

Also, at the May annual meeting questionable procedures occurred. Below is the election letter and questions that I mentioned to you at the meeting. As parliamentarian, I question whether some procedural errors have been made as noted by this election judge.


FROM THE MAY MEETING


As an election judge at the Annual Meeting held on May 15, 2009, I noticed that your draft minutes and the letter from Dirk to Owners regarding Marriott’s justification for voting and the exact vote count for the election for Board members seem to be misleading and request further clarification and correction.



… Other examples of MVCI exercising its voting rights at Aruba Ocean Club include the 2003 Annual Meeting. While MVCI has not always exercised its voting rights at Aruba Ocean Club or its other timeshare resorts, it reserves the right to do so in its discretion. ..”


This statement is misleading because Marriott has never used their votes for an Owners Board candidate since the Board became an Owners Board. To clarify, the 2003 election noted by Dirk, was an election by a developers controlled Board.


This was the only time Marriott votes were cast for an Owner candidate and was again when developer candidates controlled the Board. These two situations differ significantly. You and other MVCI executives have openly expressed your approval of having a hands off approach related to Board Owner elections. I am not questioning Marriott’s right to vote their shares; I am questioning what I feel is an attempt to mislead the Owners regarding your history and tactics.


I would greatly appreciate you providing Owners and myself with a better understanding of the Board election results as reported in your correspondence and on the web site by addressing the following questions:


1. If you are correct that fewer than 7000 votes were cast prior to the meeting, why were not the Owner election judges aware of this during the meeting? Assuming that the election judges (including myself) counted the votes and certified them why were these numbers not shared or reported during the meeting?


You can check with your Parliamentarian that according to Robert’s rules the election results were announced as certified at the meeting by Inspector of Election, Scott Derrickson, who gave the Tellers Report. These figures as noted below are different than those you are stating now. Allowing additional votes and proxies after the meeting announcement raises the question of an invalid election.


2. Since each Owner had up to 2 votes per week to cast for up to 2 A members – is it possible that you doubled counted some of the votes? These ballot numbers were not reported to or certified by the Owner election judges at the meeting and only reported after the meeting by the Marriott team.


3. Mr. Cohen had Limited proxies for 980 shares in the A-Member election and 1,070 shares in the B-Member election at the meeting. Under what column were these tallied?


Votes Votes
by During
Limited Meeting
Proxy Received Received



It seems almost statistically impossible that Frank Knox received the exact same amount under both columns? Any rational person would think this is suspect. Is the number 2,112 correct for both? Are the election ballots available for audit and review by Owners? If this is not possible because the ballots have been destroyed, please inform us.



5. Please inform us as to who hired Morrow & Company, the Parliamentarian and if they were paid for by the Association, if so how much did they cost the Owners? Since the Parliamentarian was not used at the Surf club annual meeting just weeks after the AOC’s, or any other of your 50+ Vacation Clubs do you have plans to retain them for next year’s AOC annual meeting.


6. Would you please explain each of these numbers and how they are obtained?


“The majority of the voting interest present, which is the number needed to take action at this meeting, is 3,724, The total voting interests for this meeting are 23,954 and the majority of the total voting interests are 11,978. If you take the total units times 51 wks times 2 plus 1500 this = 23,736 not 23954”



7. You state that Mr. Knox had the majority support of Owners prior to the Meeting and imply that your votes only supported the Owners, if this is the case why did you not support Mr. Andrew Bury who according to your report had the second highest vote from Owners going into the Annual Meeting? Remember all nominated candidates were chosen by Marriott and the Board.



8. Did anyone other than Marriott verify that at the time of the election MVCI had title and paid Owners in full for the Ownership of 115 units?



I am requesting a formal written response to these questions and look forward to hearing from you. I think a clear understanding will be helpful for all Owners in the future. Thank you,
 
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Dean

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I didn't think they'd allow taping. A Parliamentarian's job is simply to run a meeting, not perform accounting functions. If I were MVCI, I would not let a magazine be distributed with an add negative to MVCI. I think the issues you list were predictable and how most companies would handle such situations.
Sooner or later, our Concerned Owners membership is going to grow, and there will be a day of reckoning
Unless you can do so legally, I doubt that's the case. IMO you have one chance at this going forward and that's in the courts ASAP but with all the documentation of your concerns and accusations that you can muster. Also, IMO, must of the opportunity was lost on the front side.
 

modoaruba

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Mark,
You set yourself up for the self rightous of why MVCI is always right and you are always wrong.
Can't wait for the Marriott defenders to do their shtick.

This is exactly why I called for a taping of the meeting.
That way there would be no interpretation of the meeting other than what and how it took place.
The BS reason it could not be taped should show how deceptive this whole process is.
Now we have to rely on your and other attendees reports.
MVCI had given us no choice but to rely on those reports.

Closed door and censored meetings are going to bring about a larger recruitment to the goup of CONCERNED owners.

Now WE ARE REALLY CONCERNED!
 

SueDonJ

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My observations are Marriott has a puppet board and they, Marriott do not want any dissension. I don't know what their agenda is but a free flow of information is not one of them. The board does not have the guts or smarts to hold a meeting as evidenced by them hiring a parliamentarian who really ran the meeting. She was the rudest person I have met in a long time and immediately set the tone of protecting the board and Marriott and screw you owners in the audience. No one liked her that I talked to and the whole meeting was a railroad job. ...

What I bolded above, that's where you lose all credibility. Honestly. How can you possibly say that you "don't know what their agenda is" when it was clearly spelled out in the notice of the Special Meeting that was sent to every owner as well as available for viewing at the Aruba Ocean Club's page at my-vacationclub.com? It's mind-boggling to me that any owner would have gone into that meeting with an expectation of a "free flow of information." That wasn't the purpose of the meeting and you were certainly forewarned that it would not be allowed.

Mark, what are your attorney's thoughts about the meeting? Did you discuss with her/him the Notice that all of the owners were sent and your expectations prior to the Special Meeting, to give her/him an opportunity to explain to you exactly what would be reasonable to expect? tlwmkw obviously has some knowledge about standard meeting rules that are in this post, and I would think that if your attorney is competent, s/he would have at least the same basic understanding. It's apparent from your reaction that you lack any of that understanding, especially considering that there was a lesson to be learned from the first meeting at which a Parliamentarian was present. Once more, this appears to be proof that you're not proceeding with a competent attorney's oversight.

So, can we assume from all this that the majority of votes cast were not in favor of the bylaw amendment?
 
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cruisin

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Another classic case of developer vs owners. Developers only care about $$ not owners. The less owners know, the stronger position the developer has, that will always be the case. Free flow of information would be great, but it is not going to happen, ever. When owners get a strong hand, Marriott will cut and run, the resort will lose the marriott name and some of its luster, and the rest will be scared to follow. It would be quite interesting to see one Aruba property lose its branding and compare the 2 over the following years? I for one have never figured out if slow death by developer is better or worse than quick death by revolt. The outlook for this resort sure seems grim either way?
 
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