Marriott Aruba Ocean Club Owners Being Ripped Off By Marriott - READ IF AN OWNER

tlwmkw said:

Kelly&Sean,

It sounds like this web-site is fishing for names to add to the list of concerned owners. If transparency is important why are they creating a members only site? Why not just make it open to anyone who wants to see what is going on- then they can opt for their name to be added to the list?

Where is the big law-suit that was supposedly being filed on behalf of the owners? There was much talk of this months ago and now nothing has happened. I gave up reading this thread because nothing new ever comes along and this just sounds like more of the same. Efforts that would ensure that the building is sound and that future expense would therefore be kept at a minimum would be more prudent.

tlwmkw

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If you haven't noticed,you ARE on the open for everyone site.
What is wrong with a private site for owners since it serves one purpose and that is for the benefit of the owners without outsider agendas.
Your choice.If you're an owner you have a right to the info, if not,you get plenty of info right here.
Criticise through knowledge not speculation.

point of clarification

Dean said:

That would seem to conflict with the disclaimer at the right top of that initial page that says:
I don't have a problem with a separate owners site, I suggested it several times in this discussion and I think it's the proper way to proceed for such a group. However, it would seem that there may be owners that want to investigate prior to deciding to add their name to any list that might be used to communicate with Marriott or in any other way. I'd suggest that one should allow owners there to sign in and then have a separate option of adding their name to any list. As it stands now, sharing any names from a list collected in such a way is illegal without the express permission of the owner to do so. Still, any such list would not meet any criteria that Marriott (or any other company would have) to document such names legally for a proxy or other communication with Marriott, lawyers or other entities.

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Hi
This has been considered. When you register there is a statement that you have to agree to letting you know that you are agreeing to support the cause and that your information will be only be used for that reason. It gives owners the option to delete their account at any time. The purpose of the site is very clear. The intention is not to open it up so others that dont support it can debate about the purpose of the site. The site is not a tug site where anyone can be a guest and spend time debating for the sake of debating. You dont need to worry about other people signing up. They are able to read the information and make their own decision.

For those that want any questions answered prior to signing up Allan's name, email address and phone number is listed on the right hand side of the page. He has always supported open communication.

Any information provided to Marriott or related to any legal matters would be done with legal guidance to ensure it was done properly.

Folks have listened to your suggestion for a website and it is there to serve an important purpose to those of us who believe in the cause.

I am an owner and I orginally did sign on to the cause but then requested that I be removed (I do not know if I was ever removed from the list though). The reason I asked to be removed is that much has been said but I need to see in writing the things that have been said. I have seen Marriotts side on the website and I have seen the new Ocean Club but what I have not seen is the documentation to support the concerned owners side. I would be more then willing to sign on again if I see some written documentation. Someone did comment that one can opt out once you register for this new site but the site does not indicate that.

lovearuba said:

Hi
This has been considered. When you register there is a statement that you have to agree to letting you know that you are agreeing to support the cause and that your information will be only be used for that reason. It gives owners the option to delete their account at any time. The purpose of the site is very clear. The intention is not to open it up so others that dont support it can debate about the purpose of the site. The site is not a tug site where anyone can be a guest and spend time debating for the sake of debating. You dont need to worry about other people signing up. They are able to read the information and make their own decision.

For those that want any questions answered prior to signing up Allan's name, email address and phone number is listed on the right hand side of the page. He has always supported open communication.

Any information provided to Marriott or related to any legal matters would be done with legal guidance to ensure it was done properly.

Folks have listened to your suggestion for a website and it is there to serve an important purpose to those of us who believe in the cause.

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As I said, I have no problems with it being closed or for owners only. I do have a concern that one has to add their name to the list IF you are an owner at that resort, just to get information. What you stated is contradictory to the statement I quoted from that home page.

Someone asked about the court case. There is a case in Aruba as we speak. The concerned owners have sued the board and MVCI for access to the owners list as well as the requirment of a notarized letter from each owner to call a special meeting.

There is other court action being planned as we speak, which will be revealed when appropriate.

Don't be hoodwinked

For any Ocean Club owners or any other timeshare owners don't be fooled by some of the postings. Try this for transparency - 'lovearuba' (who always writes in 3rd person about Allan) is in fact Allan. That is a fact and it can be taken to the bank. Just check who 'Love Aruba' is on his concerned owners website - do it quick though as he's certain to cover up his tracks.

On another note; I heard they lost their court case in Aruba - this I know because I let these guys fool me for too long as well. These supposed issues at that resort are all about one person's crusade - no more, no less. It's sad that he has caused all owners so much money in his personal crusade (of which was just mentioned by another tugbbs user that there never has been any proof of any of his claims) because he's bitter about becoming an outcast. I personally have had enough of it. Life's too short to sweat the small stuff....

Well davidberg you have no idea what you are talking about. So now you have changed from bergdavid. We all know who the real david berg is. You are just a Marriott puppet making things up.

the case is still going so dont try to say it isnt.

And Love Aruba is not Allan, nice try

david berg

Hi
Just for clarification, lovearuba is a name I use for this site. I am a married female with two grown children. I own a 2 bedroom in aruba. Tug could easily take a look at the credit card I use to pay for the subscription, my name is on it. I'm not Allan. Ive never met Allan but I have helped with the website and I am proud to do that. David Berg who posts here is not an owner at Marriott. In fact he has tried to register for the website and had the nerve to threaten me because he was rejected. He would not accept the terms of registration. Any more posts from him will not be responded to from me.

As for the website, if you did register and read through the news posts, there are numerous posts you would find as much information as you need. If you are an owner, its your right to choose to be part of this group. For those that really have an interest I encourage you to think about it but I dont want you to unless you agree with the cause.

lovearuba said:

Hi
Just for clarification, lovearuba is a name I use for this site. I am a married female with two grown children. I own a 2 bedroom in aruba. Tug could easily take a look at the credit card I use to pay for the subscription, my name is on it. I'm not Allan. Ive never met Allan but I have helped with the website and I am proud to do that. David Berg who posts here is not an owner at Marriott. In fact he has tried to register for the website and had the nerve to threaten me because he was rejected. He would not accept the terms of registration. Any more posts from him will not be responded to from me.

As for the website, if you did register and read through the news posts, there are numerous posts you would find as much information as you need. If you are an owner, its your right to choose to be part of this group. For those that really have an interest I encourage you to think about it but I dont want you to unless you agree with the cause.

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Though anything is possible in the age of the internet, having spoken with Allan, I would say that the chance that LoveAruba and Allan are the same person is extremely remote.

I do find the "support" clause of the Terms & Conditions to be an interesting contradiction for a group that wants to promote transparency. But I guess it depends on the manner in which that provision is applied.

For instance if a member of the site supports the goal, but disagrees with tactics being used to achieve the goal.

Also, what is the governing body for that group - i.e. who makes the decisions?

And is there due process for disagreements between members, or a process for members to participate in the decision making process - either by representation or directly?

ecwinch said:

Though anything is possible in the age of the internet, having spoken with Allan, I would say that the chance that LoveAruba and Allan are the same person is extremely remote.

I do find the "support" clause of the Terms & Conditions to be an interesting contradiction for a group that wants to promote transparency. But I guess it depends on the manner in which that provision is applied.

For instance if a member of the site supports the goal, but disagrees with tactics being used to achieve the goal.

Also, what is the governing body for that group - i.e. who makes the decisions?

And is there due process for disagreements between members, or a process for members to participate in the decision making process - either by representation or directly?

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First of all,the member's site is a private site with a purpose of sharing between like thinking minds.
Anybody can start a board and be able to be independent of the rest of the world with it's own rules and exclusions.
One of the goals is to achieve transparancy between Marriott,the Board and the owners.Transparancy to the rest of the world by the group and for the group is not an issue.If the group was open to the rest of the world it would obviously defite it's purpose and might as well stay with this board alone and get outside agendas to deal with.
As you can see in prior posts there has been numerous inhospitable contributors.
There are plenty of issues left on this board for others to debate in the open if they should choose to.
That is my opinion and wish kind regards to all.

ModoAruba

Do you see anything in my post that suggests that the "crusaders" do not have a right to meet on a private site or that private individuals should operate transparently with the "rest of the world"?

Do you even see any part where I ask - "why is the site private"? Your response seems to be strictly on defending why the "crusaders" felt they needed to flee TUG and go hide on a private site. Given the veracity of their arguments, I completely understand that decision. As they say "If you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen".

And we can disagree that the "crusaders" need not operate in a transparent manner internally. I think that is the first thing a group that is seeking to combat a perceived lack of transparency needs to do. Particularly when they are soliciting support from the AOC owner community at large. Otherwise it is far too easy for individuals to steer the group in a direction to further their own personal agenda - like returning to the Board for instance.

In one of your posts you state "If you're an owner you have a right to the info mentioned in a previous post that if not,you get plenty of info right here. "

But I think that statement might be disingenuous. Given the terms and conditions, I suspect that you are only interested in the opinions of "like-minded" owners that will support the decisions of the self-appointed leadership. So it is a AOC owners "right" to that information, but only until the "crusaders" do not like their questions? Given the limitation of that "right", it is easy to see that you are behaving in the same manner as you accuse the AOC board of. You only want to hear the opinions of those that agree with you. It is not a group that is open to all AOC owners, only a particular sub-set.

I think that is all Kelly&Sean are saying. How will they know if they agree to support Allan's decisions in the future? And by extension, do they get kicked off if they start to disagree - and god forbid - "debate" the issues? Because it is a well know fact that "debating" issues is bad. One should just accept decisions and move on. Just like Allan does.

ecwinch said:

... I think that is all Kelly&Sean are saying. How will they know if they agree to support Allan's decisions in the future? And by extension, do they get kicked off if they start to disagree - and god forbid - "debate" the issues? ...

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I think equally important, Kelly&Sean said that they (he? she?) do not know if their name was removed from the list of owners that the site is compiling:

I am an owner and I orginally did sign on to the cause but then requested that I be removed (I do not know if I was ever removed from the list though). The reason I asked to be removed is that much has been said but I need to see in writing the things that have been said. I have seen Marriotts side on the website and I have seen the new Ocean Club but what I have not seen is the documentation to support the concerned owners side. I would be more then willing to sign on again if I see some written documentation. Someone did comment that one can opt out once you register for this new site but the site does not indicate that.

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It's one thing to compile a list for the purpose that is expressly stated on the home page (bolding on site):

All personal information provided to this site will be used strictly for the purpose of communicating updates regarding the Aruba Ocean Club. It will be kept strictly confidential and will not be sold, shared or otherwise disclosed to any other party.

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It's quite another to compile a list for the purpose that Kelly&Sean found stated when they registered at the site (bolding mine):

The Disclaimer includes "You are also agreeing that you support efforts to gain more transparency on the ASSOCIATION (Aruba Ocean Club Association Board)." The Privacy Policy says "The administrators of this site will not use your personal information for any purpose other than to support the efforts to gain transparency on the Aruba Ocean Club Homeowners Board. Your information will not be provided to any other parties. It may be used to provide Marriott Vacation Club International a listing of owners that support the goal of gaining more transparency on the Aruba Ocean Club Homeowners Board."

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It appears to me, based entirely on what Kelly&Sean have related here as to the contents of the site, that there isn't anything more concrete or definitive on that site than what can be found here, for an owner to determine if s/he should give permission for his/her name to be placed on a list of disgruntled owners that may be made available to MVCI/Marriott.

As Dean said, there are red flags flying high here with respect to the "expressed permission" legalities of the compilation of names. [Edit] Also, it's questionable that the website list of names could be any more qualified than the one already submitted. Remember "Mr. Clipboard"? It appears to me that the website list is simply the electronic version of it.

website

Dean said:

That would seem to conflict with the disclaimer at the right top of that initial page that says:
I don't have a problem with a separate owners site, I suggested it several times in this discussion and I think it's the proper way to proceed for such a group. However, it would seem that there may be owners that want to investigate prior to deciding to add their name to any list that might be used to communicate with Marriott or in any other way. I'd suggest that one should allow owners there to sign in and then have a separate option of adding their name to any list. As it stands now, sharing any names from a list collected in such a way is illegal without the express permission of the owner to do so. Still, any such list would not meet any criteria that Marriott (or any other company would have) to document such names legally for a proxy or other communication with Marriott, lawyers or other entities.

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No one is sharing any names from the site with anyone. If we need a list of names a newsline will be sent to the registered owners asking them to review whatever is being sent, if they approve it then their name will be included. If they do not respond, their information will not be used. This is really the last time I am going to respond to some of the speculation in this site. If any owner wants more information, feel free to send a pm to me and I will answer any questions you may have on the registration process.

Any owner can sign up and later decide they no longer want their information maintained. When they delete their account, it is deleted. No record of it remains in the system. Have a great day.

lovearuba said:

No one is sharing any names from the site with anyone. If we need a list of names a newsline will be sent to the registered owners asking them to review whatever is being sent, if they approve it then their name will be included. If they do not respond, their information will not be used. This is really the last time I am going to respond to some of the speculation in this site. If any owner wants more information, feel free to send a pm to me and I will answer any questions you may have on the registration process.

Any owner can sign up and later decide they no longer want their information maintained. When they delete their account, it is deleted. No record of it remains in the system. Have a great day.

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Although I understand your feeling that you don't have to qualify yourself and are bristling a bit perhaps at all the second-guessing going on here, from an outside perspective it is clear that at least some visitors and potential "joiners" to your site are being discouraged from joining by the perception that by joining they are giving tacit approval to whatever the site administrators decide it is in everyone's best interests to send to Marriott.

If, in fact, no one's name will be attached to any petition, document, etc., unless they give explicit permission to sign any such document, and that nothing will transpire by virtue of their joining the site other than to be able to garner information and to give the site administrators a way to contact owners, then you might consider rewording the home page of the website to avoid confusion.

Sometimes when one knows something it is very hard to comprehend that others may not read the information the way it was intended. Sounds like that is the case here.

consideration

m61376 said:

Although I understand your feeling that you don't have to qualify yourself and are bristling a bit perhaps at all the second-guessing going on here, from an outside perspective it is clear that at least some visitors and potential "joiners" to your site are being discouraged from joining by the perception that by joining they are giving tacit approval to whatever the site administrators decide it is in everyone's best interests to send to Marriott.

If, in fact, no one's name will be attached to any petition, document, etc., unless they give explicit permission to sign any such document, and that nothing will transpire by virtue of their joining the site other than to be able to garner information and to give the site administrators a way to contact owners, then you might consider rewording the home page of the website to avoid confusion.

Sometimes when one knows something it is very hard to comprehend that others may not read the information the way it was intended. Sounds like that is the case here.

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I will be happy to pass this recommendation along. Its not unreasonable.

lovearuba said:

No one is sharing any names from the site with anyone. If we need a list of names a newsline will be sent to the registered owners asking them to review whatever is being sent, if they approve it then their name will be included. If they do not respond, their information will not be used. This is really the last time I am going to respond to some of the speculation in this site. If any owner wants more information, feel free to send a pm to me and I will answer any questions you may have on the registration process.

Any owner can sign up and later decide they no longer want their information maintained. When they delete their account, it is deleted. No record of it remains in the system. Have a great day.

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As I said, your statement previously

This has been considered. When you register there is a statement that you have to agree to letting you know that you are agreeing to support the cause and that your information will be only be used for that reason.

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would seem to conflict with the disclaimer on the opening page that I quoted above. One says you agree to support which seems to suggest your name and info would/could be used in association with other actions, the other says the info will not be shared. Were I an owner at THAT resort looking to have the inside scoop, I'd have great reservations signing up with those conflicts and it seems from the info above, I'm not the only one. Also requiring concerned members to agree to your position up front would seem extremely questionable at best, like posting a poll with only one choice.

dean

Dean said:

As I said, your statement previously would seem to conflict with the disclaimer on the opening page that I quoted above. One says you agree to support which seems to suggest your name and info would/could be used in association with other actions, the other says the info will not be shared. Were I an owner at THAT resort looking to have the inside scoop, I'd have great reservations signing up with those conflicts and it seems from the info above, I'm not the only one. Also requiring concerned members to agree to your position up front would seem extremely questionable at best, like posting a poll with only one choice.

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you are signing up so we can get in touch with you if we need to for any action we may want to take. What folks seem to have a problem with, the ones on this thread, is giving any information to sign up and get access to the site. We are not going to change that, if you want to have access to the information you need to register. If you are still uncomfortable then this is not the site for you. I mean no disrespect and I understand people have concern giving information out, I also understand that if we need to contact them, then we need the information. We have considered opening up a guest function but have decided against it. If you are an owner and you are interested you should contact Allan and discuss your opinions with him.

Have a great day.

lovearuba said:

you are signing up so we can get in touch with you if we need to for any action we may want to take. What folks seem to have a problem with, the ones on this thread, is giving any information to sign up and get access to the site. We are not going to change that, if you want to have access to the information you need to register. If you are still uncomfortable then this is not the site for you. I mean no disrespect and I understand people have concern giving information out, I also understand that if we need to contact them, then we need the information. We have considered opening up a guest function but have decided against it. If you are an owner and you are interested you should contact Allan and discuss your opinions with him.

Have a great day.

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I think you should re-consider what Dean is saying. I don't think giving the site administrators your contact info. is the issue, but it appears to be ambiguous as to how precisely that contact issue will be used. If, as you imply, it will only be used to notify owners of any future action and to give them the option of supporting it that's one thing, but as I read it (and I surmise others have) joining and giving the info. as it stands means you "support the cause." I think by not clarifying things you are alienating many potential members who don't want their info. being attached to any document unless they approve of that specific document/action.

lovearuba said:

... What folks seem to have a problem with, the ones on this thread, is giving any information to sign up and get access to the site. ...

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Hmmm, I don't know where you get that from. None of us has said that owner contact information shouldn't be collected at that site. What we're questioning is how the owners' contact information will be used, because there are completely contradictory statements about that on the home page and in the disclaimer that comes up when you click on "register."

These two statements do not mean the same thing, and neither can they be reasonably interpreted to mean what you've said in your last few posts:

... It will be kept strictly confidential and will not be sold, shared or otherwise disclosed to any other party.

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... It may be used to provide Marriott Vacation Club International a listing of owners ...

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And it isn't so much that I "have a problem with" the compilation of owners' information or the contradiction in the two statements. It's just crossed my mind that if the list of owners compiled on the site is submitted to MVCI/the MAOC BOD in order to satisfy a bylaw requirement, the first line of defense will probably be that a recognized electronic signature software has not been utilized to verify the owners' consent. The second will be that there is enough of a contradiction that owners might not have a reasonable expectation of how their contact information is being used.

m61376 said:

... If, in fact, no one's name will be attached to any petition, document, etc., unless they give explicit permission to sign any such document, and that nothing will transpire by virtue of their joining the site other than to be able to garner information and to give the site administrators a way to contact owners, then you might consider rewording the home page of the website to avoid confusion. ...

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lovearuba said:

I will be happy to pass this recommendation along. Its not unreasonable.

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Hmmmm. It appears there is something new on the home page today:

Registering for this website does not authorize the usage of your name to any petition, document, etc., unless you provide your explicit permission to use it. If your consent is needed you will be contacted.

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Nice work, m.

SueDonJ said:

Hmmmm. It appears there is something new on the home page today:


Nice work, m.

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Thanks

lovearuba said:

you are signing up so we can get in touch with you if we need to for any action we may want to take. What folks seem to have a problem with, the ones on this thread, is giving any information to sign up and get access to the site. We are not going to change that, if you want to have access to the information you need to register. If you are still uncomfortable then this is not the site for you. I mean no disrespect and I understand people have concern giving information out, I also understand that if we need to contact them, then we need the information. We have considered opening up a guest function but have decided against it. If you are an owner and you are interested you should contact Allan and discuss your opinions with him.

Have a great day.

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Collecting information and getting a forum to share info with the owners is what you should be doing, several of us suggested it long ago. Asking for an attestation of support as part of the sign up process is going far beyond collecting info so you can communicate if need be. Hopefully this was not an intended consequence given the change I see referenced but it is what was being insisted upon. Was the sign on portion agreeing that you support the cause also changed?

Dean said:

Collecting information and getting a forum to share info with the owners is what you should be doing, several of us suggested it long ago. Asking for an attestation of support as part of the sign up process is going far beyond collecting info so you can communicate if need be. Hopefully this was not an intended consequence given the change I see referenced but it is what was being insisted upon. Was the sign on portion agreeing that you support the cause also changed?

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Doesn't appear to be changed, Dean - this is from the Disclaimer on the registration page:

... Website Rules The information contained in this website is for Marriott Aruba Ocean Club owners only. By completing your registration process and accepting these terms, you are agreeing that you are an owner at this resort. You are also agreeing that you support efforts to gain more transparency on the ASSOCIATION (Aruba Ocean Club Association Board). If you decide at any time that you no longer support this cause you can delete your account by using the home page and following the prompts to delete your account. ...

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SueDonJ said:

Doesn't appear to be changed, Dean - this is from the Disclaimer on the registration page:

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And the problem is-------?????

I can start a site inviting only blue eyed people who believe the sky is blue.
They have a right to opt out once they believe the sky is another color or opt out for any reason.
My site,my rules.
If I do not want brown eyed people on my site I do not have to accept them.If I do not want blue eyed people that think the sky is a color other than blue,I do not have to accept them.
We are all grown ups and can either sign up or not without having to dissect the issue to death.

modoaruba said:

And the problem is-------?????

I can start a site inviting only blue eyed people who believe the sky is blue.
They have a right to opt out once they believe the sky is another color or opt out for any reason.
My site,my rules.
If I do not want brown eyed people on my site I do not have to accept them.If I do not want blue eyed people that think the sky is a color other than blue,I do not have to accept them.
We are all grown ups and can either sign up or not without having to dissect the issue to death.

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The "problem" as I see it is that any owners who want to join the site in order to gain access to whatever information is there that will enable them to determine if they agree with the cause, are forced by the Disclaimer and Privacy Policy to support the cause before they know what information might be available or what that support entails. The contradictory statements contained on the website's home and registration pages, and here on TUG in posts about the website from owners who have joined, make it all very confusing for the folks you're trying to reach. That's all.