Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

m61376 said:

A knowledgeable source has stated that Marriott will never discontinue the weeks program for exchanges. Thus, owners who retain their current ownership will continue to trade in a weeks based system, and not some paperwork conversion to points as you suggest. I am fairly confident that this source has the correct information.

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Could be, except that I'm not sure that what's being proposed here IS a weeks-to-points conversion system. Dave's first post didn't include any details about how or what points system would be implemented. These are his exact words: "We can speculate all we want, but I currently have no additional info (how the points program would work, what the fees would be, how points would be assigned to various individual weeks or seasons, etc.)."

Consider this possibility, which would still result in a weeks-based exchange system.

But of course, it's all speculation.

Dave M said:

I don't know your source, but so am I. However, I'm also quite confident that some future non-Asian MVCI resorts will be points-only or mostly-points resorts.

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Yes- I also heard that future resorts will be released as points only or primarily points, and it will likely coincide with the new system roll-out.

While retaining the right/ability to trade week for week will be good for owners who either choose not to convert or those who are not offered the opportunity to do so (depending upon whether current resale owners are grandfathered and whether future resale owners are excluded), they will likely be largely or completely excluded from future resorts because the majority of such units will be in the points system.

Of course, going down the road, Marriott will not only need to address how resale weeks are treated, but how resale points are treated as well, and as even new resorts hit the resale market over time if they are excluded it may be that if owners don't use a week that they book at their home resort using owned points they will simply have to deposit it into II to trade it (akin to the Starwood voluntary resorts where owners excluded from internal trading use their points to book their week and then get to deposit the week that they've booked). Curiously, owners at voluntary resorts that can't trade internally have the right to deposit the week they've booked, but owners at mandatory resorts are subject to having Starwood deposit whatever off season week they choose if owners want to trade through II, so for going outside of the system in some ways they are better off if they own a voluntary resort.

More importantly- how is your trip going so far? I assume you've arrived safe and sound at your destination? Just couldn't resist peeking in ?

Right now even though I just bought a Marriott TS. I currently plan to trade that TS for even nicer Marriott resorts. The Marriott resort we visit most often ( and just bought) I'm able to trade for with my non Marriott weeks.

This new point program may put a stop to that and therefore I'm not happy.

Zac495 said:

What will you do, Jim? Would you buy now? I lean towards no for resale and of course not developer - not in a box, not with a fox, not in a tree - just let me be!

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I am not Jim, but Ellen I think right now is a great time to buy a good platinum week. You can buy a manor Club for half of what Marriott gave you.

SueDonJ said:

Could be, except that I'm not sure that what's being proposed here IS a weeks-to-points conversion system. Dave's first post didn't include any details about how or what points system would be implemented. These are his exact words: "We can speculate all we want, but I currently have no additional info (how the points program would work, what the fees would be, how points would be assigned to various individual weeks or seasons, etc.)."

Consider this possibility, which would still result in a weeks-based exchange system.

But of course, it's all speculation.

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You are right- but that was definitely my impression.
The other problem I see with the post you've reference is that since these are deeded rights (which is why every unit is sold with a unit and week number for bookkeeping purposes), Marriott MUST guarantee the availability of what owners bought if they continue to retain the same ownership. What I mean is this- if I own a Platinum OF unit, for argument's sake, I must be able to book 7 days in such a unit at my resort in my owned season. If, suddenly, the entire reservation pool was converted to points, there is a possibility that there may never be a week in my season available for me to reserve in my OF unit.

Logistically, it is very unlikely to happen with most views. But it certainly potentially could happen with certain limited unit views that may be highly desirable.

Unless I relinquish my absolute ownership rights to that deeded week, Marriott must guarantee its availability. Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see how the system you suggest (and I realize it is pure speculation) could ensure my legal ownership rights- whether I bought direct and decided not to convert, bought resale int he past or buy resale in the future. The deeded rights can only be changed if both parties agree to any modification.

JimC said:

DVC did a reallocation in 96 and then again this year to re-balance supply and demand. They were and are required to not change the total number of points required across the year. Thus any increases had to be offset in total by decreases elsewhere. That is a bit different then the points issues discussed here.

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Of course, except that I brought it up in the context that was suggested that DVC did not engage in deceptive sales tactics or product devaluations. For some DVC'ers, the recent point reallocation did result in a devaluation of their established ownership usage.

thinze3 said:

I am not Jim, but Ellen I think right now is a great time to buy a good platinum week. You can buy a manor Club for half of what Marriott gave you.

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I'm not sure that the best platinums to buy for the internal trade program will be the same as those for II.

m61376 said:

You are right- but that was definitely my impression.
The other problem I see with the post you've reference is that since these are deeded rights (which is why every unit is sold with a unit and week number for bookkeeping purposes), Marriott MUST guarantee the availability of what owners bought if they continue to retain the same ownership. What I mean is this- if I own a Platinum OF unit, for argument's sake, I must be able to book 7 days in such a unit at my resort in my owned season. If, suddenly, the entire reservation pool was converted to points, there is a possibility that there may never be a week in my season available for me to reserve in my OF unit.

Logistically, it is very unlikely to happen with most views. But it certainly potentially could happen with certain limited unit views that may be highly desirable.

Unless I relinquish my absolute ownership rights to that deeded week, Marriott must guarantee its availability. Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see how the system you suggest (and I realize it is pure speculation) could ensure my legal ownership rights- whether I bought direct and decided not to convert, bought resale int he past or buy resale in the future. The deeded rights can only be changed if both parties agree to any modification.

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Again, it's all speculation, but I don't see where the proposed points program would be applied to every facet of our ownership, which could ultimately impact the deeded rights attached to each ownership as you suggest, and which I agree would be contrary to owners' rights.

Isn't this proposed program only applicable to the exchange system, which is negotiated between MVCI and whatever exchange company it selects? What would that have to do with our rights to occupy the unit configuration we've purchased?

SueDonJ said:

(W)hat if it's negotiated in the new MVCI/II contract that every single week deposited for exchange must be made available first to those who have opted in to the new system...

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If every Marriott deposited in II was earmarked for MEP owners first, what possible incentive would non-MEP owners have for depositing their unit there? Resale owners would simply choose another more equitable vehicle for making exchanges, such as Redweek or SFX.

I own at Westin Maui and the main reason that I don't deposit my unit in II is because I fear I won't be able to find a comparable exchange. I'm sure Marriott resale owners, especially ones who own at the higher end resorts, would share the same fear and the same reticence to deposit. And without deposits, the whole program collapses.

SueDonJ said:

Isn't this proposed program only applicable to the exchange system, which is negotiated between MVCI and whatever exchange company it selects?

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You're assuming MEP will be administered by an outside company. I think its much more likely this MEP system will be setup similar to Starwood and Hyatt. An internal exchange system administered by Marriott (not II). Those who opt-in to MEP create an internal pool of inventory, seperate from II. Those who do not or cannot opt-in continue using II (or SFX, etc). Those within MEP who wish to trade outside the Marriott system will do so by requesting MEP to make a deposit with II. Then you have your week in II with which to search and exchange.

So, this basically splits the Marriott inventory between MEP and II. It's not a given that the MEP inventory pool will be bigger or better than the II pool. It all depends how successful they are getting owners to opt-in. Clearly, they need the owners more than the owners need MEP. Of course, if they design the system like Hyatt, then all weeks carry a point equivalent which transfers upon resale. Your deeded week is still yours - that doesn't change. On an annual basis, you have the option to use your week, or take the point equivalent and go shopping in Hyatt inventory pool or deposit with II. Much more owner friendly than this rumored MEP system, IMO.

FlyerBobcat said:

Doug,

You might not have considered a possible residual value on your timeshare purchase when you are "done with it", but I really don't understand how you can so easily neglect the fact that it could & very well might be worth something.

Using this information certainly could help one choose a unit.... it seems only too logical to me.

If torn between two "very similar" units that you are considering purchasing, and one seems to be a much better bet to hold its resale value, are you saying that you wouldn't weigh that in on your purchase decision?

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I can because I know that a) there's a reason they're forbiden from selling as an "investment" and b) Because I've seen the rules change enough over the last 11 years to be aware that and residule value can change without notice. Every contract I've seen clearly states the developer can change the rules anytime they want. That means I have little to no control. When I have little to no control, I'm at someone else's mercy. In this case, someone who's goal is to turn a profit. Those rules will always favor the developer, who generally hangs onto the management contract of the resort.

I've seen this play out with pretty much every timeshare we own. NO TIMESHARE HAS ANY REAL CASH VALUE. The only reason for some to sell for more than others would be that resale buyers want to spend enough to get over ROFR. ROFR isn't a guarentee. What's happened to Marriott resale prices lately in this economic downturn? They've tanked is what I believe I've been reading.

What would happen if Marriott got out of the timeshare developement business all together and never exercised ROFR again? My bet is prices would plumet. There should be no expecation of any significant resale value when you purchase a timeshare. To much of the control is out of your hands. Most of you seem to be coming to this realization with the rumor that Marriott is going to change their rules slightly.

Sigh...

Sigh. Timeshare developers seem to always be coming up with something to make it more difficult and to sell more, more, more. I was doing fine with my little 10,000 point package with Bluegreen and then they added a bunch of levels and earlier reserving for some. Marriott has the same thing with owners of multiples.

I've been wanting to buy Marriott and waiting for it to hit bottom but now I'm beginning to think I'd just be better off renting wherever we want to go....especially when hubby retires and we're more felxible.

BocaBum99 said:

I'm not sure that the best platinums to buy for the internal trade program will be the same as those for II.

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I'd venture to guess that the best Platinum weeks are those that Marriott has already deemed to be the best resorts; they recently categorized the timeshare properties for reward point redemption. It is logical that they would value them accordingly.

m61376 said:

A knowledgeable source has stated that Marriott will never discontinue the weeks program for exchanges. Thus, owners who retain their current ownership will continue to trade in a weeks based system, and not some paperwork conversion to points as you suggest. I am fairly confident that this source has the correct information.

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This is correct. Marriott cannot alter your right to reserve a week in your season 12/13 months out, nor give any one else (direct or not) any different rights or priority to do so.

This is the area I am most focused upon that is ripe for manipulation and will watch quite closely as the system rolls out. Marriott's "Program" can only ask participants to deposit the week you reserve into their program. They cannot manipulate the system so that they automatically reserve the week you will deposit, or othewise give any priority ahead of non-participants.

However, I recognize this would be quite hard to police as Marriott manages the reservation process for each resort/HOA (ala the RCI poaching). If Marriott is not completely transparent here, they (and each resort's HOA) will face litigation.

PS. Your right to reserve is more than a "program," its what's in that deed the salespeople tell you is so "valuable." (Apologies to Sue for using the D-word )

Whew!! I miss about 17 hours of this thread, and gads! four more pages. . . I'm exhausted from reading all of this. I read those post that I thought were sour grapes and decided to respond prior to reading further. I would have been too exhausted to respond had I read to the end before posting that response (which I think is back on page 11).

I am going to wait for this new system to come out, and then decide whether it is worth joining, keeping the status quo, or dumping my timeshare. If I have to dump my timeshare, my biggest regret is that I will have to listen to the "I told you so's" from my wife who thought buying a timeshare was a stupid idea to start with.

IF (big if) Marriott were to make the idiotic decision to kill resales, I will get out any way I can. Then it will be goodbye timesharing, goodbye TUG, good riddence Marriott. I will have gotten burned, but it will only happen once.

I had great vacations prior to Marriott. I had great vacations with Marriott. And I will have great vacations after Marriott. I don't need Marriott to have great vacations. I really like the Kauai Beach Club. We had a great time there. The staff was great. The Surf Club was a little crowed, but we liked it. The room was great, and the staff treated us well. Marriott sure seemed like a good company, and I hope that they will prove to be a consummer-oriented company with the new system. If so, I will probably stick around a while, and TUGgers will have to continue to endure all my whipping-of-the-deadhorse posts.

davidvel said:

This is correct. Marriott cannot alter your right to reserve a week in your season 12/13 months out, nor give any one else (direct or not) any different rights or priority to do so.

This is the area I am most focused upon that is ripe for manipulation and will watch quite closely as the system rolls out. Marriott's "Program" can only ask participants to deposit the week you reserve into their program. They cannot manipulate the system so that they automatically reserve the week you will deposit, or othewise give any priority ahead of non-participants.

However, I recognize this would be quite hard to police as Marriott manages the reservation process for each resort/HOA (ala the RCI poaching). If Marriott is not completely transparent here, they (and each resort's HOA) will face litigation.

PS. Your right to reserve is more than a "program," its what's in that deed the salespeople tell you is so "valuable." (Apologies to Sue for using the D-word )

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No worries, I used it myself in my response to m's same post. We three all agree that the usage options - occupy, rent, exchange - are deeded rights, as is the specific unit/season configuration that an owner purchased.

You bring up an interesting unwelcome new thought, though, with your "ala the RCI poaching" thing. Don't like the sound of that.

dougp26364 said:

..... There should be no expecation of any significant resale value when you purchase a timeshare. To much of the control is out of your hands.

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Well Doug, I will have to agree to disagree.

Maybe you are close to being correct that there should be no expectation, but certainly I think there could be an reasonable expectation that is used in the decision process.

And if that expectation turns out to be a BIG bust, you're no worse off than if you just ignored it as you propose.

Now I'm not talking about someone that buys developer, and hopes to sell at that price in 5 - 10 years (I have a freind in that situation). But it you buy at say 25% to 50% of (not "off") Marriott retail price -- and didn't overpay at that price -- then I think it's probably a reasonable expection to get a good part of your money back if you sell in a few years. [Of course, you should not spend that money early ]

davidvel said:

This is correct. Marriott cannot alter your right to reserve a week in your season 12/13 months out, nor give any one else (direct or not) any different rights or priority to do so.

This is the area I am most focused upon that is ripe for manipulation and will watch quite closely as the system rolls out. Marriott's "Program" can only ask participants to deposit the week you reserve into their program. They cannot manipulate the system so that they automatically reserve the week you will deposit, or othewise give any priority ahead of non-participants.

However, I recognize this would be quite hard to police as Marriott manages the reservation process for each resort/HOA (ala the RCI poaching). If Marriott is not completely transparent here, they (and each resort's HOA) will face litigation.

PS. Your right to reserve is more than a "program," its what's in that deed the salespeople tell you is so "valuable." (Apologies to Sue for using the D-word )

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I am usually the last person who wants to litigate anything. My corporate experience was centered around avoiding it rather than fostering it. So, it's not engrained into my being.

However, if Marriott tries to muck with the 12 month reservation rule that is a fundamental element of my title, I will most likely be willing to sign on as a co-plaintiff to your complaint.

m61376 said:

I'd venture to guess that the best Platinum weeks are those that Marriott has already deemed to be the best resorts; they recently categorized the timeshare properties for reward point redemption. It is logical that they would value them accordingly.

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I agree. Is that table anywhere to be found? I'd like to look at it.

dougp26364 said:

I I've seen this play out with pretty much every timeshare we own. NO TIMESHARE HAS ANY REAL CASH VALUE. The only reason for some to sell for more than others would be that resale buyers want to spend enough to get over ROFR. ROFR isn't a guarentee. What's happened to Marriott resale prices lately in this economic downturn? They've tanked is what I believe I've been reading.

What would happen if Marriott got out of the timeshare developement business all together and never exercised ROFR again? My bet is prices would plumet. There should be no expecation of any significant resale value when you purchase a timeshare. To much of the control is out of your hands. Most of you seem to be coming to this realization with the rumor that Marriott is going to change their rules slightly.

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I believe your two statements above in bold are incorrect financial assumptions to make unless you are estimating value over a 10 year or more horizon.

If you assign all of your timeshares a zero residual value, you will make the wrong decision in managing your timeshare portfolio.

When I first started timesharing, I thought 5 or 10 years was the optimal length of time to own one. Now, I think it is around 1-2 years. If you have a one year time horizon, you can travel for free. If you assume zero residual value, you may as well rent and not buy.

BocaBum99,
To view the rewards chart and the MVCI rewards information try this link http://www.marriott.com/rewards/mvci-faq.mi and then click on "view the entire list of Vacation Club properties and their new category level".

Joyce

AMJ said:

BocaBum99,
To view the rewards chart and the MVCI rewards information try this link http://www.marriott.com/rewards/mvci-faq.mi and then click on "view the entire list of Vacation Club properties and their new category level".

Joyce

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Thanks Joyce. I reviewed the list and it only breaks down the resorts into 3 categories with the same values all year long. There are no seasons. It only gives you a high level idea as to which resorts they believe are the highest relative value.

As I suspected, though, Manor Club and Branson are only cat 5. People talk about those resorts being great traders. It's clear they will have the lowest point tables.

There isn't enough information in that table to predict how Marriott will create point tables.

BocaBum99 said:

As I suspected, though, Manor Club and Branson are only cat 5. People talk about those resorts being great traders. It's clear they will have the lowest point tables.

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I don't think you're comparing apples to apples. For whatever reason, in the II world, apparently these are great traders. Past performance obviously bears this out.

AMJ said:

BocaBum99,
To view the rewards chart and the MVCI rewards information try this link http://www.marriott.com/rewards/mvci-faq.mi and then click on "view the entire list of Vacation Club properties and their new category level".

Joyce

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This is the direct link

I don't think people tout Manor Club and Branson as being the top of the trading heap, but just that they are good traders which can be purchased at a relatively lower price point and have lower annual MF's.

I think the only indication as to possibly how Marriott values different sizes/views/seasons can be found in the posts by Starbucks describing the Asia Pacific program. Although it only references the resorts in that system, my guess that it is indicative of how Marriott relatively values things.

RandR said:

So in other words, you don't mind if resale buyers are treated like second class citizens. (Had to use that phrase again.)

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I can't speak for anyone else. IMO, there are primary rights of a given ownership and secondary options. Primary would be the ability to use the week you bought, rent it and exchange it (though not guaranteeing an exchange company). Secondary would be things like specialty reservations, internal exchanges, discounts and other fringe benefits. I also think it matter whether the resale buyer knew OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, the limitations going forward. So to your question in a post above, I feel it is reasonable for a company to draw the line for NEW changes in secondary benefits at the point of the change because the resale buyers going forward know where they stand (or should know) and have the option of making the choice whether to buy in or not. Might they do so retroactively, it depends on the specifics. Many timeshare companies offer benefits to retail owners that they do not offer to those that buy resale on the secondary market. Some offer major benefits including reservation priorities based on developer purchase as well as your size stake in the system. Bluegreen and Wyndham to name a few offer significant perks in exactly this way. Marriott's 13 month reservation option is similar though based on different parameters. But if Marriott restricted this option to retail only going forward, it would be consistent with the others I've mentioned. In some cased, companies may not extend new retail benefits to existing retail customers, I know of this happening in some cases as well.

Latravel said:

"It amazes me that anyone would purchase a timeshare based on any thought other than to vacation. With few exceptions, very few people turn a profit buying and then selling timeshares. Especially when purchased from the developer. "


Amen! This is exactly what I have been trying to say though some who are on the defensive or a little bit worried are obviously taking my points the wrong way (hello RandR and FlyerBobcat). I understand being a little sensitive but there's no need to get "mad". We're just talking about timeshares.

Our timeshare is not an investment! We should not expect any return. If we sell and get something back, yea for us.

Marriott does not owe anyone anything, direct or resale. They clearly spell out what they will give us in the purchase documents (yes, they are in the purchase documents) such as:
1. Your timeshare is not an investment
2. Marriott reserves the right to make changes at their discretion,regardless of your expectations or moral compass.

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I would disagree somewhat. Timeshare emphasize that it's not an investment and that you should not expect returns (rental or resale) due to state laws and to protect themselves from litigation, not because it has to be true. I can tell you that while many timeshares I've owned were to use at least part of the time, none have been to use all of the time. And I have purchased timeshares with the main intent of reselling them and in every case where that was the intent, I made money, usually quite a bit. I have never lost money on a timeshare and I've bought and sold a number of them. IMO, this is one of the best times to buy a timeshare, I bought 3 in the last few weeks, all Marriott's. All have passed ROFR at 20-40% retail and 2 were OF units during Platinum season, the other platinum to trade. The risk is mine and I am willing to take it. To reiterate, much of the legal wording is about requirements, expectations and posturing, not a statement of fact, from a factual standpoint and considering well informed buyers, often those statements are totally incorrect.

davidvel said:

This is correct. Marriott cannot alter your right to reserve a week in your season 12/13 months out, nor give any one else (direct or not) any different rights or priority to do so.

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In keeping with my thoughts above, I do believe that there is a core requirement for owners to be able to reserve, however, they could change it in many ways. The 13 month option represents just that, a change aimed at selling additional weeks to existing owners, esp those at placed like HH with multiple resorts.