Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

Latravel said:

"Interesting to read all the comments made by resale purchasers justifying why Marriott won't do anything to change their current ownership rights. Is anyone getting just a wee bit nervous here?"

I was thinking the same exact thing as you! Another observation is reading how people think it's just wrong to make any changes that could hurt resale buyers (for many reasons such as property values, investments, etc) yet in the same paragraph state it's ok for Marriott to make changes to future resale purchasers.

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I can't speak for other resale owners, but I think many if not most of us are not saying it is ok for Marriott to make changes for future resale buyers as long as they don't make changes to current resale buyers. I know the distinction I have been making is that current resale owners bought with the expectation and understanding that the only difference in use was the inability to enjoy the perk of trading for points. I think it is morally wrong for Marriott to change the game after being a party to the sale (after all, they approved the resale and transferred the property).

While I still think penalizing future resale purchasers will be bad for Marriott overall and bad for all owners, I don't think Marriott has the same obligation to future resale buyers as they do to current owners. The distinction I was making is that it is one thing to penalize owners retroactively and another to be upfront with people prior to them making a purchase. Those are two very distinct things, and it is not a line which you should casually be blurring.

And, despite the sarcasm, I don't think my posts and those by several others are due to "becoming nervous." I hope- and think- Marriott is too good a company to penalize anyone just for the sake of being punitive and will recognize that there is nothing to gain by excluding current resale owners from any future program; moreover, there is plenty to gain financially and wrt good will by being inclusive. If I am nervous about anything it is the prospect of how future changes which I fear likely will be implemented penalizing future resale buyers will impact the product as a whole. I am concerned- as you all should be (and that includes direct purchasers as well) what impact it will have on retained value (even though it is not an investment, we all like to feel we didn't just throw our money away and that there is inherent value) and how a points program will likely suffer from progressive devaluation as future properties are added and over the course of time. I bought anticipating that I'd be able to trade for a week not only at today's properties but also at the ones that were being discussed. Even though I currently own at what Marriott considers one of their top resorts, will it still be considered at the top of the heap next year, or in five years, or will I slowly find that my week is worth 6 days, then 5, then a 1 BR, etc., at a future resort property? So- yes- I am nervous about that- but you should be too!

KathyPet said:

Interesting to read all the comments made by resale purchasers justifying why Marriott won't do anything to change their current ownership rights. Is anyone getting just a wee bit nervous here?

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I am VERY NERVOUS. I also heard that Marriott is going to only allow resale buyers to have 2 people occupy their unit, even if a 2BR!! In addition, Marriott will require any owner, resale or direct, who gets divorced to sell their unit back to Marriott for $1!!!

To support family values, they also will not allow any unmarried people to stay in any unit in the same bed. They are starting a new special forces program to enforce this rule.

Also, a good source told me that Marriott is going to only allow children older than 16 years old in any unit. In addition, Marriott is thinking of a new policy that will only allow you reserve 2 months in advance if you are a resale purchaser. Further,anyone who has bought resale in the last 2 years will have their deed expire in 5 years and it will revert back to Marriott!!!

Of course, they can do this because they reserve the right to make any changes to the "program" (whatever the heck the "program" is) and are in control of people's property rights.

I also heard a rumor that for any property that is not owned by someone whose ancestors came over on the Mayflower, the State of Virginia will be converting any deed to such property to a government parcel owned by the state.

FYI- Marriott doesn't own your timeshare, they just manage it:
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=764828&postcount=68

m61376 said:

I can't speak for other resale owners, but I think many if not most of us are not saying it is ok for Marriott to make changes for future resale buyers as long as they don't make changes to current resale buyers. I know the distinction I have been making is that current resale owners bought with the expectation and understanding that the only difference in use was the inability to enjoy the perk of trading for points. I think it is morally wrong for Marriott to change the game after being a party to the sale (after all, they approved the resale and transferred the property).

While I still think penalizing future resale purchasers will be bad for Marriott overall and bad for all owners, I don't think Marriott has the same obligation to future resale buyers as they do to current owners. The distinction I was making is that it is one thing to penalize owners retroactively and another to be upfront with people prior to them making a purchase. Those are two very distinct things, and it is not a line which you should casually be blurring.

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I don't know, I guess I just expect that Marriott/MVCI is free to make whatever changes they wish to any aspect of the program, so long as the changes are contractually enforceable and/or would survive a legal challenge by virtue of the contract stipulations. I apply that expectation equally to developer and resale purchases, which means that I would not be surprised if Marriott/MVCI implemented a change which would negatively affect my ownership. After all, they've done it in the past.

sandesurf said:

NO, you're not understanding that right. As far as I can tell, only ONE person made referance to that, and that was something they heard from ONE salesperson. That in NOT a fact, just a rumor, from ONE salesperson.

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No, this info was contained in Dave M's first report from his source that changes would be coming to the system back in December 2007.

"Restrictions on Resale Weeks

Note: See my January 1, 2009 post in this thread for an update - suggesting that resale weeks not grandfathered might be restricted to making reservations only six months on advance."

"I know the distinction I have been making is that current resale owners bought with the expectation and understanding that the only difference in use was the inability to enjoy the perk of trading for points. I think it is morally wrong for Marriott to change the game after being a party to the sale (after all, they approved the resale and transferred the property)."

I am confused by this comment. When I signed my purchase documents, Marriott had us intial a very long list of qualifiers. I remember clearly the documents stating that Marriott could change the system at their discretion(not exactly in those words). To me, if they change the vacation club rules, I do not feel it is morally wrong in any way since they disclosed this fact and I accepted. They disclose all the facts so people don't come back later and say, "I had an expectation..."

Even if you purchase resale, don't you get the same documents? Can you really say you didn't know or didn't you read your purchase agreement?


SueDon - you don't have to assume, it's written in the documents.

davidvel said:

I am VERY NERVOUS. I also heard that Marriott is going to only allow resale buyers to have 2 people occupy their unit, even if a 2BR!! In addition, Marriott will require any owner, resale or direct, who gets divorced to sell their unit back to Marriott for $1!!!

To support family values, they also will not allow any unmarried people to stay in any unit in the same bed. They are starting a new special forces program to enforce this rule.

Also, a good source told me that Marriott is going to only allow children older than 16 years old in any unit. In addition, Marriott is thinking of a new policy that will only allow you reserve 2 months in advance if you are a resale purchaser. Further,anyone who has bought resale in the last 2 years will have their deed expire in 5 years and it will revert back to Marriott!!!

Of course, they can do this because they reserve the right to make any changes to the "program" (whatever the heck the "program" is) and are in control of people's property rights.

I also heard a rumor that for any property that is not owned by someone whose ancestors came over on the Mayflower, the State of Virginia will be converting any deed to such property to a government parcel owned by the state.

FYI- Marriott doesn't own your timeshare, they just manage it:
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=764828&postcount=68

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Geeze, your sarcasm is so helpful here.

You've said yourself many times over that Marriott cannot make changes to the deeded rights, and you've included that link pertaining to the Shadow Ridge documents as support in practically every instance.

Well, this thread isn't about either a deeded right or Shadow Ridge. It's about a proposed change in the exchange system/contract utilized by MVCI for all of its resorts, which is not stipulated in any ownership documents.

Perhaps it would be more helpful if your sarcasm is at least on topic.

SueDonJ said:

Geeze, your sarcasm is so helpful here.

You've said yourself many times over that Marriott cannot make changes to the deeded rights, and you've included that link pertaining to the Shadow Ridge documents as support in practically every instance.

Well, this thread isn't about either a deeded right or Shadow Ridge. It's about a proposed change in the exchange system/contract utilized by MVCI for all of its resorts, which is not stipulated in any ownership documents.

Perhaps it would be more helpful if your sarcasm is at least on topic.

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My sincere apologies for being the first on TUG to post a sarcastic thought. However, my post was as on topic as the post it responded to:

KathyPet said:

Interesting to read all the comments made by resale purchasers justifying why Marriott won't do anything to change their current ownership rights. Is anyone getting just a wee bit nervous here?

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Sarcasm is often a fun way to take an argument to its (il)logical extreme to point out the fallacy in the argument. I continue to beat that poor horse because people continue to post statements that Marriott can change anything it wants... or Marriott can change the "program rules," without specifying what exactly they contend Marriott can change. People who are new to a thread get confused, and post things such as "Can resale owners only reserve 6 months in advance?", etc.

I still contend that there is no "change" at all, other than to what people inaccurately believed was contractually promised to them by Marriott. I was just trying to inject some humor in response to the post "getting a wee bit nervous..." (I would say go Chargers but that would definitely be off topic.)

davidvel said:

My sincere apologies for being the first on TUG to post a sarcastic thought. However, my post was as on topic as the post it responded to:


Sarcasm is often a fun way to take an argument to its (il)logical extreme to point out the fallacy in the argument. I continue to beat that poor horse because people continue to post statements that Marriott can change anything it wants... or Marriott can change the "program rules," without specifying what exactly they contend Marriott can change. People who are new to a thread get confused, and post things such as "Can resale owners only reserve 6 months in advance?", etc.

I still contend that there is no "change" at all, other than to what people inaccurately believed was contractually promised to them by Marriott. I was just trying to inject some humor in response to the post "getting a wee bit nervous..." (I would say go Chargers but that would definitely be off topic.)

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You know what, David? I was wrong in calling you out for your sarcastic post. You're right in that sarcasm is alive and well on TUG, and it's hypocritical of me to call out someone else for it. I apologize, sincerely.

In my defense, though, I don't think that Kathypet's post to which you responded was meant to be sarcastic. Perhaps defensive, maybe, when you consider that the ongoing developer v. resale arguments here allow for a certain "oh no, not again" mentality to creep into any related thread, but not I don't think sarcastic.

In this thread if you follow its progression you can see where the "Can resale owners only reserve 6 months in advance?" came from. It went off tangent when someone asked Dave if his source for this thread's topic is the same as the source who told him that there was a 6-month reservation change in the works, and that post of Dave's was linked here. Of course now it's useless to try to put that horse back in the barn. And it's a little bit disingenuous of you to quote my "Marriott can change anything it wants" as if that phrase was my entire thought, isn't it? You asked, so I'm answering - I contend they can make whatever changes will be contractually enforceable.

But I disagree that what's being discussed here now, the proposed internal exchange system, isn't a "change" from the current exchange system. Whether or not it supplements MVCI's current contract with II or replaces it, it's a change.

And finally, "go Chargers?!" This is baseball season - go RedSox.

SueDonJ said:

You asked, so I'm answering - I contend they can make whatever changes will be contractually enforceable.

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I wholeheartedly agree.

And finally, "go Chargers?!" This is baseball season - go RedSox.

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Unfortuantely, we in SD have to look ahead to football season. "Go Padres" (39-62) would be more foolish than anything else I have ever said

PerryM said:

This is truly despicable - Marriott having a chuckle at our expense.

What the hell is happening to a once great company?

Dave, have a great vacation.

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That happens all the time at top companies like Marriott and Disney, it's just that often you don't know about it. It also happens at the bank, hospital, doctors offices, church etc when people are difficult, say dumb things, etc. I know of several times with Marriott and Disney where the employee thought they were off the phone with the member and made comments that were not esp nice though they may have been true. Sometimes it's inappropriate, sometimes it's not. I didn't get the impression from Dave it was done in an inappropriate way but it is one of the areas where you had to be there so to speak.

For those who think that it is "not morally right" to change the rules in the middle of the game and penalize current resale purchasers because you bought with certain expectations understanding the existing limits on your purchase I would say that those of us who bought direct also feel that it was "not morally right" to have changed the rewards program multiple times over the years so that the value of our trade in for points has been reduced and we can no longer get the # of hotel nights for our points that we could when we purchased. Welcome to the real world where Marriott will do whatever they want to do because morality has nothing to do with their decision.

PS I also hear that the new rules will allow two deeded chairs per unit at every swimming pool complete with a little brass plaque with the unit # of it. You can only use 'your deeded chairs" in the future.

Are those lips moving?

davidvel said:

I am VERY NERVOUS. I also heard that Marriott is going to only allow resale buyers to have 2 people occupy their unit, even if a 2BR!! In addition, Marriott will require any owner, resale or direct, who gets divorced to sell their unit back to Marriott for $1!!!

To support family values, they also will not allow any unmarried people to stay in any unit in the same bed. They are starting a new special forces program to enforce this rule.

Also, a good source told me that Marriott is going to only allow children older than 16 years old in any unit. In addition, Marriott is thinking of a new policy that will only allow you reserve 2 months in advance if you are a resale purchaser. Further,anyone who has bought resale in the last 2 years will have their deed expire in 5 years and it will revert back to Marriott!!!

Of course, they can do this because they reserve the right to make any changes to the "program" (whatever the heck the "program" is) and are in control of people's property rights.

I also heard a rumor that for any property that is not owned by someone whose ancestors came over on the Mayflower, the State of Virginia will be converting any deed to such property to a government parcel owned by the state.

FYI- Marriott doesn't own your timeshare, they just manage it:
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=764828&postcount=68

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I like your post - a great use of sarcasm!

Marriott is the one spreading these rumors, not us - thousands of us have heard them direct from Marriott's mouth and for years now. These rumors have but one purpose - to scare the living daylights out of us. Better buy from Marriott or you will get screwed.

I find the use of Marriott's rumors ethically reprehensible - I'm positive that if we consulted an authority on Business Ethics we would find that what Marriott is doing is ethically challenging. If this were Westgate folks here would be guillotined but because its Marriott we seem to have some defense of Marriott.

What ever happened to the good ol' TUG slogan "If the salesreps lips are moving they're lying" - its still alive and well...

So what rumor will Marriott spread today? And why do we tolerate their deceptive behavior? Imagine Disney doing this - I can't.

Latravel said:

"I know the distinction I have been making is that current resale owners bought with the expectation and understanding that the only difference in use was the inability to enjoy the perk of trading for points. I think it is morally wrong for Marriott to change the game after being a party to the sale (after all, they approved the resale and transferred the property)."

I am confused by this comment. When I signed my purchase documents, Marriott had us intial a very long list of qualifiers. I remember clearly the documents stating that Marriott could change the system at their discretion(not exactly in those words). To me, if they change the vacation club rules, I do not feel it is morally wrong in any way since they disclosed this fact and I accepted. They disclose all the facts so people don't come back later and say, "I had an expectation..."

Even if you purchase resale, don't you get the same documents? Can you really say you didn't know or didn't you read your purchase agreement?


SueDon - you don't have to assume, it's written in the documents.

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Just because someone can get away with doing something legally doesn't mean they should or that it is ethically correct. We are looking at it from opposite vantage points. Your contention appears to be, at least, that Marriott can do anything they want to ANY owner (and that would include developer purchasers too) that they can legally get away with. And, yes, in a sense you are right; there is a lot of latitude in their legal documents. HOWEVER, that doesn't make it morally right to effectively shaft anyone just because the law says you can get away with it. I guess I expect people- and companies- to treat me the way I deal with people. I know it is unrealistic sometimes, but I expect a sense of fairness and of moral obligation. Marriott has been a good company up to now, and I can only hope and expect they will continue to be that way. Making second class citizens, so to speak, out of a group of owners who purchased with the expectation of full usage rights (knowing they would not enjoy the perk of trading for points) is very different from setting different standards for future buyers, who would be cognizant of the limitations of their purchase before spending any money or making any commitment.

In a similar fashion, they "could" decide to offer a points system and then make every new resort double value in points, so you could never trade into a new resort unless you used 2 weeks for one. They can legally make such changes- but I am sure you would be up in arms about it, feeling that it was unfair and not the system you bought into.

I've always subscribed to the mantra of treating people like you'd like to be treated, and I expect that in anyone I do business with. I like Marriott and you may think I am naive, but I think they will do right by their owners and I think at the end of the day current resale owners will be grandfathered. You're free to disagree- but it doesn't make you right and me wrong.

tlwmkw said:

I believe that Marriott is also trying to take more control of re-sales- they currently have a re-sale department and with this new system I can see that it will be in their interest to expand it. There is no overhead in re-selling, especially when you already have an active sales staff up and running and can make a 40% profit. I believe we will be offered re-sales at the MVCI presentations as a routine in the future.

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What about resale of resells? Do you think Marriott will take those units that current resale owners have bought and sell those for them?

All resales started as direct purchases - Marriott already made their money on the original sale. This debate it getting old.

I own both direct and resale. I did not initial the Marriott contract with all the stipulations in it when I bought resale. I signed a contract with the escrow company and didn't see the deed until the sale was completed. I knew the only thing I was giving up was my right to trade for Marriott reward points. Which basically has been taken away from direct purchase timeshare since I can pay less to buy the points then I would pay to trade for points with MF's and conversion costs. Financially it doesn't make sense to trade for point any more so that is one of the reasons I bought resale the second time. I didn’t feel I was giving up anything and I saved a lot of money by taking over someone else’s financial burden of MF’s. I don't feel that any internal trading system should treat resale owners any different than direct purchase owners. I would not be surprised if Marriott asked for more money for resale owners to convert but I also feel that if I paid more to join the club I should be treated as an equal to someone who bought direct.

We don't need a stinking new exchange system...

Marriott's new internal exchange system is going to have a HUGE impact on our usage and enjoyment of our villas, and resale prices. If Marriott interferes with our enjoyment in any way they can expect class-action lawsuits - that's how business is done today.

Look at the impact it already has had on us and that's just the rumor of an internal exchange program. Marriott uses the rumor as a weapon against us now - imagine how they will use it against us when its a reality.

Do we need an internal exchange program? The existing II way seems to have served us owners for 10+ years. I don't remember anyone here bellyaching about needing a better exchange system.

The current 24-day Marriott-only window works great - it could be lengthened to 30 days and we would have a whole month to mull over reservations that only we Marriott owners get to see. That would cost us nothing and not impact II or Marriott at all.

This is all about Marriott wanting to squeeze more money out of the existing owners and to have a new sales tool - no other reason that I can think of.

I don't see where there is any joy in these rumors - you all know this is going to cost you huge bucks and a brand new caste system is being forced down our throats. There will be those in the system and those beggars out of the system.

Marriott has every right to foist this on us - there is nothing morally, ethically, or legally wrong with that. But don't think for a second that this is a great thing for Marriott owners - its all abut Marriott.

P.S.
Once Marriott sells the last unit in a resort they become the hired help - the folks who clean the toilets. These same folks now get to yank our chain around?

Latravel said:

"I know the distinction I have been making is that current resale owners bought with the expectation and understanding that the only difference in use was the inability to enjoy the perk of trading for points. I think it is morally wrong for Marriott to change the game after being a party to the sale (after all, they approved the resale and transferred the property)."

I am confused by this comment. When I signed my purchase documents, Marriott had us intial a very long list of qualifiers. I remember clearly the documents stating that Marriott could change the system at their discretion(not exactly in those words). To me, if they change the vacation club rules, I do not feel it is morally wrong in any way since they disclosed this fact and I accepted. They disclose all the facts so people don't come back later and say, "I had an expectation..."

Even if you purchase resale, don't you get the same documents? Can you really say you didn't know or didn't you read your purchase agreement?

SueDon - you don't have to assume, it's written in the documents.

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To answer your question, I have purchased two resale units and have never seen the documents you are talking about. I am guessing they are to cover Marriott's a** when you as a buyer from them come back to complain that you were not told somthing, not part of the deed.

Ray

Latravel said:

"Interesting to read all the comments made by resale purchasers justifying why Marriott won't do anything to change their current ownership rights. Is anyone getting just a wee bit nervous here?"

I was thinking the same exact thing as you! Another observation is reading how people think it's just wrong to make any changes that could hurt resale buyers (for many reasons such as property values, investments, etc) yet in the same paragraph state it's ok for Marriott to make changes to future resale purchasers.

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Heidi, be careful that you don't fall off your high horse. As a very recent resale buyer, I am happy with my purchase. I used a TUG suggestion of buying where I want to go so I know for the next 5 - 10 years minimum I will still be happy with my purchase whatever happens with a points program. (Although if they do put ina 6-month window for resale buyers I would not be.)

To be all pompous and holier-than-thou about having bought direct and that we who bought resale are just getting what we deserve is obnoxious. If future resale purchasers lose all rights (forget about current ones), the prices of resales will drop substantially. This will effect ANYONE trying to sell whether they bought direct or not. Not everyone who bought direct will have the perfect life that you are leading and will lead forever. Some people will get divorced, lose jobs, have medical problems or just need the money and they will get almost nothing for their sale. Obviously a ts is not an investment but I am sure that most have the expectation that they will be able to get something back when they sell.

How would you feel if when they assigned the points, your units were given less points than many of the others? What if your week could only get you 5 days in some of the properties? Would that make you mad? It could happen. Maybe not to you but to other direct buyers. This would be within Marriott's rights.

Is this an angry post? YES!! Whenever there was an "argument" on buying direct vs resale, many resale buyers tried to make the direct buyers feel stupid for paying so much. I thought that sucked. Now some of the direct buyers are heaping it on the resale buyers and I think that sucks as well.

We are all in this together. I pay the same maintenance as a direct buyer. I care about my property the same as a direct buyer. I shouldn't be treated as a second class citizen and neither should anyone.

I suggest that everyone who has a concern about a potential new point system send a letter regarding their concerns to David Babich, Chief Customer officer.

Does anyone remember the Marriott survey from last year??

As much as some of you guys believe this is all a bunch of rumors, I believe differently. IMHO the new Marriott system will be here before you know it, and as Dave stated what's wrong with using that information to push sales in the interim (interim = 3 or more years)?

Marriott obviously has been kicking this around for a very long time. Marriott's mathematicians and masterminds, with the use of the survey, the new Marriott Insiders forum, and anything else that they could get feedback from, have probably come up with a points based trading system already.

Most likely the leagal team and the rest of the suits are simply fine tuning the new system at this point. The recent points devaluations and the revamping of the timeshare points requirements are all part of a grand scheme IMO slowly but surely coming to light.

Thank you RandR- I couldn't agree more. We are all in this together.

SueDonJ said:

Well I don't know what to expect - do any of us?! But some posts here have speculated that resales would be worthless without the ability to exchange. My thought is that if that ability is offered by MVCI after every sale as opposed to possibly not transferring at all from owner to buyer upon a resale, then resales wouldn't be worthless.

Like I said, it's just a thought.

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It's more than just a thought. It's the current plan, according to the OP...

Those who bought directly from Marriott will pay a relatively low fee if they choose to join the points program. Marriott intends to make the fee low enough so that many, many owners will join. Those who bought resale will pay a higher fee, possibly much higher, if they wish to join.

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Resale vs Developer purchase.

Buying resale today at ridiculously low prices and taking advantage of any potential grandfathering is probably the best case scenario, because I can only assume that there is no way in he$$ that Marriott will exclude current resale owners from joining the points based system due to legal issues.

Suppose you buy a DSV or a BeachPlace unit for about $7,000 dollars today and get grandfathered in. Marriott gives you the option to convert for points for the same $ amount they offer developer-purchased owners. Let's guestimate a $3K-$5K conversion fee.

Total expense with full points trading privilages = $12K for resale vs $30K-$35K developer.

Suppose you do not get grandfathered in and Marriott wants double, as much as $10K (this will never happen), to join the points system . Total cost is $17K for resale vs $30K-$35K for current developer owners.

Obviously Marriott has the right to ban future resale owners from being included in the new points system.

Just thought I would stir it up a bit.

What goes around comes around. Marriott has already scr**** its once loyal retail purchasers by changing the point system (in the guise of enhancements) so that your reward points cannot get you what they once did. it does not surprise me in the least that they are now trying to figure out how they can sc*** the next level down (resale buyers) to whom they probably feel they have no need to concern themselves with at all. As far as complaining about it by writing to Marriott don't bother wasting your ink. If they did not care enough to even respond to the letters they received about the last changes to the Reward point program as it effects the Vacation Club owners who bought direct then they surely won't respond to any complaints voiced by the small percentage of owners who bought resale.

2 questions on this matter:
1) Don't you think there are less savvy owners out there that as long as Marriott doesn't make the entry fee too cost-prohibitive, will just convert? The same people who don't know that they can split their lock-off unit and deposit both into II to increase their value, etc. (hey, I would have never known that had it not been for TUG).
2) Isn't it logical that Marriott wants to get this thing off the ground and running successfully and will likely NOT penalize current resale owners (I'm not a resale owner btw) because they want to entice them to join this program as well. I mean the more weeks owners have to choose from the merrier. Why would Marriott want to shoot themselves in the foot by being too restrictive for current resell owners? Yes this is a small number of people, but let's assume that not all direct owners (myself included) will not convert.

I honestly think we are looking at this wrong. I don't think the differences are going to be as extreme as others have pointed out. I think Marriott will find other ways to differentiate (for instance direct owners can/will get AC's, or something like that), not do something to completely alienate a class of owners who are potential depositors/exchangers into the new system.