Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

Dave M · Jul 28, 2009

sdtugger said:
...if the new points system does what I understand to be its purpose and that is to make new sales more attractive, then wouldn't the new points system devalue all prior sales be they developer or resale? And, depending on the extent of devaluation, wouldn't that make all existing owners "mad"? I'm not criticizing your info, I'm just trying to understand what you understand to be Marriott's thinking and strategy here. Thanks.

I don't have any information to suggest that anything you have said in the quoted language is accurate. Obviously, it would be stupid for Marriott to implement a voluntary program (which is what this will be) that angers so many owners that very few will join. Thus, Marriott obviously expects the program will be attractive to enough owners such that many will join. That's one reason that speculating on all of the possible negative aspects of a program that we as yet know very little about is just that - speculation.

If we were trying to visualize what the program will look like, my guess is that it would be more productive to make guesses as to how Marriott plans to shape the program so that a high percentage of those owners who like to exchange internally will be enticed to join.

Twinkstarr · Jul 28, 2009

SueDonJ said:
So, speculating, all of the program features will remain as is except that weeks will be assigned a point value (based on resort/season/unit configurations and purchase method, maybe?) for exchanging to other MVCI properties? That doesn't sound so bad.

If it's anything like the Hyatt system that would work just fine.

davidvel · Jul 28, 2009

Latravel said:
Those that bought resale knew there was a possibility that changes could occur regarding trading and they may not favor the resale buyer. It was a risk that was taken for the sake of lower upfront prices. Complaining now just seems like you're trying to take advantage of the system. It doesn't work that way.

This is inaccurate. There are no changes taking place. There are no changes regarding trading, because Marriott never contractually promised anyone that any trading system would continue to exist etc. But, you still have the right to rent, gift or trade your week with whomever will trade with you. "This" (whatever it will be) is simply a new trading system ala Redweek, II, Ownertrades, etc.

No risk has been incurred by resale buyers. No one was told or believed that there couldn't be new trading programs started up, or that they had a right to join any or all of them (I can't trade with RCI can I??) Assuming there are no anti-competitive issues (a big assumption), anyone can start their own trading system tomorrow and presumably refuse to allow direct purchasers... (II?) [Marriott a monopoly??

]

SueDonJ said:
That's why I say "somewhat" - it's hard for me to believe that any frequent readers of TUG could be surprised/newly concerned that Marriott/MVCI will at any time exercise its rights to make changes in the program. The history of them doing just that is all right here in black and white.

Nothing about the "new system" as discussed involves changes to your timeshare rights ("the program") that you bought as a resale or direct purchaser. Just a new trading system added. No obligation. No change. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Just more wait and see and speculation.

JimC · Jul 28, 2009

Dave M said:
That's not necessarily true. Although not my source on this particular thread, one Marriott person I have talked to about this topic suggested that the points might be solely for purposes of internal exchanges and not for any other ownership purpose.

Bottom line? It's easy to speculate, as you have. But beware of assuming that such speculation will become fact.

That was out of context. I had just responded to a comment on whether maintenance fees could be disproportionate based on season. I had said that taxes could be and then continued. That line was referring to if the MFs were converted to points. I did not say they would be converted to points, only if.

JimC · Jul 28, 2009

ngmaui said:
Quite possible...especially since DVC just left II for RCI. DVC leaving really devalued II in my eyes given I have 3 young kids and a love for Disney.

You could always buy DVC. They are building one in Ko Olina.

BocaBum99 · Jul 28, 2009

Dave M said:
I don't have any information to suggest that anything you have said in the quoted language is accurate. Obviously, it would be stupid for Marriott to implement a voluntary program (which is what this will be) that angers so many owners that very few will join. Thus, Marriott obviously expects the program will be attractive to enough owners such that many will join. That's one reason that speculating on all of the possible negative aspects of a program that we as yet know very little about is just that - speculation.

If we were trying to visualize what the program will look like, my guess is that it would be more productive to make guesses as to how Marriott plans to shape the program so that a high percentage of those owners who like to exchange internally will be enticed to join.

I completely agree that Marriott does care about its owners. And, it is smart enough to know that it needs widespread adoption to make this work. The only thing I would add is that the program needs to meet 2 additional screens.

1) how will it make Marriott's timeshare program more competitive.
2) what program maximizes the return to Marriott for the resources invested.

The constraints are significant.

PerryM · Jul 28, 2009

Are rumors lies?

SueDonJ said:
Is it possible that the three years of speculation have resulted not from salespeople initiating comments about resale v. developer purchases, but from the savvy owners who attend sales meetings and ask directly, "but why should I buy from you when I can get a much better deal on the resale market?"

It could be a vicious circle kind of thing, couldn't it? Prior to savvy owners asking that question, sales people didn't have any reason to acknowledge the resale market. Then as the internet brought resales to the mainstream, the question started getting asked and salespeople responded to it with only the MRP exchange difference. But at the same time, they were reporting to MVCI thinking heads who had to acknowledge that their customer base was being impacted in larger and larger numbers by the resale market. So MVCI had no choice, I think, but to think of ways to reign in that customer base. They start brainstorming with the salespeople who have direct contact with customers, the salespeople start repeating what's been speculated about in meetings, the customer base starts brainstorming and speculating on internet message boards, MVCI incorporates some of that info into its brainstorming, and voila! - three years have gone by and we still don't know how this will flesh out.

All that to say, maybe MVCI isn't totally at fault for the long drawn-out process.

I don't know how many sales Marriott has lost because they don't have an internal exchange system for owners. My guess is that fear of a meteorite striking the resort has more impact.

This is Marriott's rumor that they have pushed for 3 years now - I've never heard of a sales organization doing this before. It makes no sense at all.

Are rumors the same as a lie? A lie is simply stating what did NOT take place. A rumor is stating something that does NOT exist and may not exist and may be totally different if it comes true. If that rumor is used to Marriott's benefit then I classify it as another salesrep lie.

This is what's so disturbing with what Marriott keeps doing - benefiting from the fear their rumor instills. Just another timeshare salesrep lie but from the corporate office.

Shame on you Marriott....

Dave M · Jul 28, 2009

My Marriott source has watched this dialogue and contacted me. He didn't provide any additional info. However, he was amused at the speculation and found the comments to be very interesting.

I doubt that anyone in Marriott will make any decisions based on this thread. If that's what they were seeking by feeding info to us, I think we would have gotten more details about the tentative plans.

I'm sitting in the United Red Carpet lounge at DC's Dulles International Airport, waiting for my flight to Amsterdam. In a couple of days, I'll get on a cruise ship in Rotterdam for a Baltic cruise. Internet connections on most cruise ships are notoriously slow and unreliable. That's why I'll likely be out of touch for most of the next two weeks.

littlestar · Jul 28, 2009

You know, I just thought of something. If Marriott doesn't make an internal points system attractive enough to join it, some owners may just use their Marriott weeks to try to trade for a Westin, Sheraton, or Hyatt in II. I think Starwood signed a new agreement with II a few months back? I know all of our stays in Orlando over the last few years are either DVC, Sheraton, or Marriott. And I like all three of them.

I've always been happy with my Starwood stays. Interesting to think about all of this and trading in II.

Twinkstarr · Jul 28, 2009

Dave M said:
My Marriott source has watched this dialogue and contacted me. He didn't provide any additional info. However, he was amused at the speculation and found the comments to very interesting.

I doubt that anyone in Marriott will make any decisions based on this thread. If that's what they were seeking by feeding info to us, I think we would have gotten more details about the tentative plans.

I'm sitting in the United Red Carpet lounge at DC's Dulles International Airport, waiting for my flight to Amsterdam. In a couple of days, I'll get on a cruise ship in Rotterdam for a Baltic cruise. Internet connections on most cruise ships are notoriously slow and unreliable. That's why I'll likely be out of touch for most of the next two weeks.

Baltic cruise, that's one I want to try. Have a great time Dave.

BocaBum99 · Jul 28, 2009

I'll bet one of the features Marriott adds to such a program is bonus time like what HGVC provides in Open Season. If they don't offer it, it would be the single biggest miss of all time in this new program. I'll predict that the revenue from bonus time would be far greater than the exchange fees generated from the program.

In the current model with II, all breakage in expired deposits accrue to the benefit of II. In an internal exchange model, the breakage can be offered back to owners in the form of bonus time paid with cash. This is a very popular feature for all timeshare systems I own. It would be a reason that I sign up for the program. I would pay a few thousand dollars just for this feature alone.

PerryM · Jul 28, 2009

Dave M said:
My Marriott source has watched this dialogue and contacted me. He didn't provide any additional info. However, he was amused at the speculation and found the comments to very interesting.

I doubt that anyone in Marriott will make any decisions based on this thread. If that's what they were seeking by feeding info to us, I think we would have gotten more details about the tentative plans.

I'm sitting in the United Red Carpet lounge at DC's Dulles International Airport, waiting for my flight to Amsterdam. In a couple of days, I'll get on a cruise ship in Rotterdam for a Baltic cruise. Internet connections on most cruise ships are notoriously slow and unreliable. That's why I'll likely be out of touch for most of the next two weeks.

This is truly despicable - Marriott having a chuckle at our expense.

What the hell is happening to a once great company?

Dave, have a great vacation.

BocaBum99 · Jul 28, 2009

littlestar said:
You know, I just thought of something. If Marriott doesn't make an internal points system attractive enough to join it, some owners may just use their Marriott weeks to try to trade for a Westin, Sheraton, or Hyatt in II. I think Starwood signed a new agreement with II a few months back? I know all of our stays in Orlando over the last few years are either DVC, Sheraton, or Marriott. And I like all three of them.

I've always been happy with my Starwood stays. Interesting to think about all of this and trading in II.

This won't work well given the internal preferences of the the hotel chains. To make best use of those systems, you need to own in those systems, or own a much cheaper trader than a Marriott.

josh1231 · Jul 28, 2009

Out of curiosity, if they move to an internal exchange system is there anything that says that have to still let you trade your week through Interval? Might be a stupid question but I have not read anywhere that they are required to do so???

Twinkstarr · Jul 28, 2009

BocaBum99 said:
I'll bet one of the features Marriott adds to such a program is bonus time like what HGVC provides in Open Season. If they don't offer it, it would be the single biggest miss of all time in this new program. I'll predict that the revenue from bonus time would be far greater than the exchange fees generated from the program.

In the current model with II, all breakage in expired deposits accrue to the benefit of II. In an internal exchange model, the breakage can be offered back to owners in the form of bonus time paid with cash. This is a very popular feature for all timeshare systems I own. It would be a reason that I sign up for the program. I would pay a few thousand dollars just for this feature alone.

I've heard the Open Season HGVC term used and owners are pretty happy with it. Boca, why don't you explain how it works to the Marriott group.

SueDonJ · Jul 28, 2009

SueDonJ said:
That's why I say "somewhat" - it's hard for me to believe that any frequent readers of TUG could be surprised/newly concerned that Marriott/MVCI will at any time exercise its rights to make changes in the program. The history of them doing just that is all right here in black and white.

davidvel said:
Nothing about the "new system" as discussed involves changes to your timeshare rights ("the program") that you bought as a resale or direct purchaser. Just a new trading system added. No obligation. No change. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You'll notice that I didn't say anything about my rights as an owner. But Marriott/MVCI holds a right, just as the owners do, to contract with an exchange company as they have done with II. If they do not continue with that contract* or supplement it with an internal exchange system such as the one that's being speculated about here (discontinuing the MVCI-priority system currently in place in the current MVCI-II contract,) then that is most certainly a "change" in the exchange specifics of the "program."

*Does anyone know the terms or dates of the current contract between MVCI and II?

JimC · Jul 28, 2009

Dave M said:
...I'm sitting in the United Red Carpet lounge at DC's Dulles International Airport, waiting for my flight to Amsterdam. In a couple of days, I'll get on a cruise ship in Rotterdam for a Baltic cruise.....

Safe travels! Sounds like a fantastic holiday.

SueDonJ · Jul 28, 2009

PerryM said:
I don't know how many sales Marriott has lost because they don't have an internal exchange system for owners. My guess is that fear of a meteorite striking the resort has more impact.

This is Marriott's rumor that they have pushed for 3 years now - I've never heard of a sales organization doing this before. It makes no sense at all.

Are rumors the same as a lie? A lie is simply stating what did NOT take place. A rumor is stating something that does NOT exist and may not exist and may be totally different if it comes true. If that rumor is used to Marriott's benefit then I classify it as another salesrep lie.

This is what's so disturbing with what Marriott keeps doing - benefiting from the fear their rumor instills. Just another timeshare salesrep lie but from the corporate office.

Shame on you Marriott....

Sure, the swirling rumors/lies don't paint Marriott/MVCI in a favorable light. But my main point was that maybe MVCI didn't start brainstorming about all this as a means to threaten its ownership group, but rather as a means to respond to questions brought up by the changing market.

Dave M · Jul 28, 2009

PerryM said:
This is truly despicable - Marriott having a chuckle at our expense.

What the hell is happening to a once great company?

I disagree. What seems out of place to me is casting dispersions on an entire company because of a comment made by one person that you didn't like. And I agree with my source. I also find many posts to be amusing, especially the suggestions that the forthcoming program will be so lousy that very few owners will want to join.

Finding posts to be amusing doesn't equate to being critical of those same posts. I find many of my grandkids profound statements to be amusing. That's not a negative. Why distort such innocent comments made by a Marriott employee?

KathyPet · Jul 28, 2009

Dave, You will love St. Petersburg. Absolutely amazing city and so much to see there. We were there for 3 days and still did not see everything we wanted to. Have a great time!

Also want to thank you for all the information you provide us. As far as those who say that the new trading system will never happen well there are always some of those everywhere.

I do, however, disagree with you on one thing. I truly believe deep in my heart that Marriott does not care one whit about its customers EXCEPT as a source of future revenue. Except for looking at us as future cash cows they could care less whether we are happy or unhappy with them. That is why I no longer recommend that people buy MVCI either direct or resale. Last time they contacted me to see if i wanted to add any more names to a old referral list I had given them I told them I would not give them any new names as I could not, in good conscience, recommend the Marriott program to my friends

Dave M · Jul 28, 2009

josh1231 said:
Out of curiosity, if they move to an internal exchange system is there anything that says that have to still let you trade your week through Interval? Might be a stupid question but I have not read anywhere that they are required to do so???

Marriott fully recognizes that many owners will continue to want to exchange externally. Thus, you can with confidence expect Marriott to continue its relationship with II, unless it were to switch back to RCI.

PerryM · Jul 28, 2009

Dave M said:
I disagree. What seems out of place to me is casting dispersions on an entire company because of a comment made by one person that you didn't like. And I agree with my source. I also find many posts to be amusing, especially the suggestions that the forthcoming program will be so lousy that very few owners will want to join.

Finding posts to be amusing doesn't equate to being critical of those same posts. I find many of my grandkids profound statements to be amusing. That's not a negative. Why distort such innocent comments made by a Marriott employee?

Because Marriott is using this rumor to benefit sales - they created this rumor, make money from it, and laugh at us.

I find that despicable but that's just my opinion.

Janette · Jul 28, 2009

Have a wonderful time Dave. We did own Hyatt and sold it because we had to have a separate II account(Hyatt club) for every week we owned. Also, once we put our week in II, we could no longer go back to our home resort. Their theory was that we had a chance to go during our period before putting it in II. The Hyatt rep told me that it wasn't fair for me to trade to a better time at my own resort. I asked if it were more fair for me to get it or a Marriott owner to get it, and she said it was fairer for an outsider to get it. I certainly don't want a system like that. I really enjoy my Marriott ownership and have never been dissatisfied with their program.

AceValenta · Jul 28, 2009

Dave M said:
I disagree. What seems out of place to me is casting dispersions on an entire company because of a comment made by one person that you didn't like. And I agree with my source. I also find many posts to be amusing, especially the suggestions that the forthcoming program will be so lousy that very few owners will want to join.

Finding posts to be amusing doesn't equate to being critical of those same posts. I find many of my grandkids profound statements to be amusing. That's not a negative. Why distort such innocent comments made by a Marriott employee?

Are you the Marriott insider....Maybe Bill Marriott's son Dave testing us to see if the program will work? :shrug:

j/k

Have a great trip around the world!

PerryM · Jul 28, 2009

SueDonJ said:
Sure, the swirling rumors/lies don't paint Marriott/MVCI in a favorable light. But my main point was that maybe MVCI didn't start brainstorming about all this as a means to threaten its ownership group, but rather as a means to respond to questions brought up by the changing market.

Marriott has total control over this rumor - they could easily instruct their employees (MVCI) to cut it out. But they haven't for 3 years and use their rumor in their sales pitches if you lean towards not buying.

I've bumped into this rumor in the last 5 sales tours I believe - this is a coordinated effort on Marriott's part and they should know better.