Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

BocaBum99 · Jul 28, 2009

GregT said:
Perhaps Marriott is rattling the saber about a points sytem to force a concession from II? Better revenue sharing? Who knows? It is a distinct possibility that they are threatening to depart to sweeten the arrangement.

I don't think so. The exchange revenue is small. This is all about creating a more competitive product and making more money on the resale market by sucking out value of the product unless you pay them both coming and going.

BocaBum99 · Jul 28, 2009

potchak said:
What I want is a program that gives me more flexibiility and no less than what I can get right now through II. Right now I can trade my 2 bd MMC into a 2bd in Hawaii as long as I am flexible on the timing and willing to wait. If I cannot still get that in the new program, I do not see us joining the points program. I also do not want to spend thousands on the program! I own 4 Marriott's which would mean the cost of another timeshare in order to buy into their points program. That is most certainly not worth it to me. Even at $500/unit (and btw, one of mine is resale) I am still talking $2000 which is not smal change especially in this economy. Even middle of next year, my DH and I will still be recovering from his being out of work the last 6 months.

Moving from one system vs. the other will be a zero sum game. If in the past, you were getting better than average trades, you will lose in the new program. If in the past, you were constantly trading down, you will gain in the new program.

It appears that Marriott will entice those who have been trading down in the program with some freebies. Then, they will coerce others to do so or become nothing. Take the loss now because you loss will be bigger if you don't.

PerryM · Jul 28, 2009

potchak said:
What I want is a program that gives me more flexibiility and no less than what I can get right now through II. Right now I can trade my 2 bd MMC into a 2bd in Hawaii as long as I am flexible on the timing and willing to wait. If I cannot still get that in the new program, I do not see us joining the points program. I also do not want to spend thousands on the program! I own 4 Marriott's which would mean the cost of another timeshare in order to buy into their points program. That is most certainly not worth it to me. Even at $500/unit (and btw, one of mine is resale) I am still talking $2000 which is not smal change especially in this economy. Even middle of next year, my DH and I will still be recovering from his being out of work the last 6 months.

Marriott is in a pickle - they should be offering more and not less to owners.

This is NOT the purpose of such and exchange program - the one you describe already exists and apparently many owners are happy.

Its all about Marriott's sales. I'm pretty confident that if such a system is introduced you will get:

1) Eye watering initiation fee
2) Point for Point exchanges - forget about the great II deals
3) Resales hurt with the exchange system not transferring from owner to owner
4) Complicated - 2 exchange systems working at once

So the Marriott owner will have to settle for less and Marriott wants more profit from us.

Marriott owners would be better off if we just got together with RedWeek and came up with our own exchange system. RedWeek's Point system already exists and if Marriott owners got behind it they could take on II.

I'd suggest that the various HOAs start approaching RedWeek and just do it ourselves.

Disney owners could do the same thing.

Dave M · Jul 28, 2009

Responding to a couple of comments and questions....

If you carefully read my posts of the past few years on this topic (including timing of the implementation, the proposed six-month reservation rule, etc.), all of my statements were based on what the most probable timing or specifics were as of the date of my posts. I believe I tried to be careful - as I have in my first post in this thread - to specify that there were a lot of details yet to work out.

As an example, many of us here questioned in the past the legality of a proposed six-month reservation rule for resale owners, at least in some states. If Marriott has decided against such a provision, it's possible that the legal issue was insurmountable. Further, if you read what I wrote about that issue on January 1, 2008 (quoted above), I clearly stated that "the six-month restriction is the most likely scenario." I didn't state that it was a done deal.

Responding to another question, anyone who bought a Marriott resale directly from Marriott is not considered a resale purchaser.

You can try to hang me because it now appears that the implementation will have different timing or different specifics than first proposed internally at Marriott. I don't believe those differences change in any way that, as I stated here long ago, Marriott will have an internal exchange program that - at least in some manner - will be less favorable for some resale owners than for those who purchased from Marriott.

It does make me a bit sad that in trying to provide useful info, I (or one of my sources) get criticized when the stated likely scenarios and likely timing don’t turn out to be 100% accurate.

I doubt that there are any readers here who would have preferred that I withhold info that comes to my attention solely because I am unable to confirm that the final product will look exactly like or be formally implemented at the exact date of early development forecasts.

Overall, the inside info that I have posted here over the years has been remarkable accurate, even in situations such as this where Marriott is still in the development stages of a project. Thus, I give you what I get. And as I stated in my initial post in this thread, there are still a myriad of details to be worked out before the estimated implementation date.

Starting later today I will be out of the U.S. for the next four weeks and will have very limited Internet access for most of the next three weeks. So I will not be able to check in on this thread very often during that time.

saturn28 · Jul 28, 2009

Here we go again. I will believe it when I see it. Until then, I am going back to sleep.

:zzz:

thinze3 · Jul 28, 2009

Dave M said:
It does make me a bit sad that in trying to provide useful info, I (or one of my sources) get criticized when the stated likely scenarios and likely timing don’t turn out to be 100% accurate.

Dave, please understand that all of your posts seem to qualify things with phrases similar to "likely to change". Thus, we should all take it for what it is worh - and have for the most part. We also know that this has been an evolving process. I was just wondering if the contact you have now is the same contact you have had all along.

Thank you for your continued input / updates.

jimf41 · Jul 28, 2009

Of all the rumors started by so called impeccable sources in the last few years I think this one is the silliest. I own 7 weeks. At 5K per week I would have to pay 35K to get into this system if the rumored entrance fee is accurate. For that fee my silver L/O at Ocean Pointe would no longer get me into a platinum 2BDRM at Grand Vista or any other Marriott resort.

If I don't opt in and the majority of the rest of you folks do that makes my L/O even more valuable than it is because there won't be very many Marriott units available on II and mine will become a super trade value. I won't have much luck trading my Marriott unit for another Marriott but the Westin St John looks like a nice place to spend a week. If the rest of you buy into the program I could probably get there with one of my Ocean Pointe L/O's. Of course if the rest of you don't buy into this nonsense then my plan is thwarted and I'll have to come up with something better than an Ocean Pointe silver unit to get into St John.

Some posters have indicated that Marriott is stupid for attempting this. As far as I can see no one at Marriott has said anything about it. I'm not referring to sales reps here I mean corporate folks. We all went down this road in January 08, except for Boca apparently, and in the end the "rumor" was debunked. I don't see that this one has much of chance either.

CMF · Jul 28, 2009

Don't be sad Mr. Dave. There ain't gonna be no hanging in this here town!

Charles

BocaBum99 · Jul 28, 2009

Dave M said:
Responding to a couple of comments and questions....

If you carefully read my posts of the past few years on this topic (including timing of the implementation, the proposed six-month reservation rule, etc.), all of my statements were based on what the most probable timing or specifics were as of the date of my posts. I believe I tried to be careful - as I have in my first post in this thread - to specify that there were a lot of details yet to work out.

As an example, many of us here questioned in the past the legality of a proposed six-month reservation rule for resale owners, at least in some states. If Marriott has decided against such a provision, it's possible that the legal issue was insurmountable. Further, if you read what I wrote about that issue on January 1, 2008 (quoted above), I clearly stated that "the six-month restriction is the most likely scenario." I didn't state that it was a done deal.

Responding to another question, anyone who bought a Marriott resale directly from Marriott is not considered a resale purchaser.

You can try to hang me because it now appears that the implementation will have different timing or different specifics than first proposed internally at Marriott. I don't believe those differences change in any way that, as I stated here long ago, Marriott will have an internal exchange program that - at least in some manner - will be less favorable for some resale owners than for those who purchased from Marriott.

It does make me a bit sad that in trying to provide useful info, I (or one of my sources) get criticized when the stated likely scenarios and likely timing don’t turn out to be 100% accurate.

I doubt that there are any readers here who would have preferred that I withhold info that comes to my attention solely because I am unable to confirm that the final product will look exactly like or be formally implemented at the exact date of early development forecasts.

Overall, the inside info that I have posted here over the years has been remarkable accurate, even in situations such as this where Marriott is still in the development stages of a project. Thus, I give you what I get. And as I stated in my initial post in this thread, there are still a myriad of details to be worked out before the estimated implementation date.

Starting later today I will be out of the U.S. for the next four weeks and will have very limited Internet access for most of the next three weeks. So I will not be able to check in on this thread very often during that time.

Dave,

We love you and the info you provide. I was just kidding about the delay.

I am okay with everything except the 6 month rule. I hope that gets dropped because of legal issues and risks.

Dave M · Jul 28, 2009

I can assure you, Jim, that this is not a "rumor". This is a project that has been in development for over two years. It's coming. That's why, even with much misinformation, sales reps have been talking about it in sales presentations for quite a while now.

As for $5k to convert to points, that amount is idle speculation. My understanding, as alluded to in my initial post, is that Marriott has not established conversion fees as yet.

As for whether you will like or dislike the actual program when it's announced, it might or might not benefit you. Obviously, any change will positively impact some owners, negatively impact some owners and have virtually no impact on some owners.

jimf41 said:
As far as I can see no one at Marriott has said anything about it. I'm not referring to sales reps here I mean corporate folks.

No public announcement by corporate executives. Of course not. But your supposition that no non-sales higher-up hasn't disclosed info about the program is incorrect.

RandR · Jul 28, 2009

mpizza said:
MFs will definitely be impacted. If Gold weeks are assigned lower points values, they will have a proportionately lower MF, Platinum owners will now have to pay the difference.

Maria

The way Hilton does it is by unit size. So all 2 BR have the same maintenance. This creates an interesting issue since a 2BR Plat is 7000 points and a 2BR Gold is 5000 points (silver even less) but they have the same MF. The people who buy Plat pay a higher price per point but a lower MF/point

While I would be extremely unhappy if the way things were set up changed and having my week esentially be worth nothing on the resale market, that is why I listened to the advice of buy where you want to go. My Orlando week may not be worth as many points as some others but it should still get me into MGV for 1 week when I want to go.

Numismatist · Jul 28, 2009

It's just all the frustration that we all feel when we realize we're being taken once again. I'm always waiting for the next thing to come along that makes me regret buying.

I love the resort MFC, but the system sucks.

They have our money, they only care about the next possible sale to a new owner. Once they have that money, they won't care about that buyer. It's how the fast-paced development has to work to keep it going. :crash:

Dave M · Jul 28, 2009

I don't believe for a second that Marriott doesn't "care about the buyer". Having worked in and consulting to entreprenurial businesses all of my adult life until retiring last year, I know that the balance between giving customers everything they want and making a profit is a very delicate balance. Both are important and Marriott can't have some of one without some of the other.

The new system will be great for some owners and not so great for others. But Marriott does care. They have to. A high percentage of Marriott timeshare sales are to existing owners. If they roll out a new program that makes most of the owners so mad that they won't buy again.... Well, they just aren't that stupid.

RandR · Jul 28, 2009

Many people here have said that Marriott wouldn't do this because it would bring resale prices to zero. This may not be the case. Many if not most people who buy timeshares direct are those that do it on impulse at a sales presentation (TUGgers excluded). They don't even think about the resale question and if they do, I'm sure the salesperson will have a snappy answer for it.

ciscogizmo1 · Jul 28, 2009

Without more details it is hard to say how the "new" Marriott Point system would work. I can see one of the problems Marriott will have is convincing people to convert during this economic depression. Even though we still have a job I don't think we'd waste our money on a point system that may or may not better than the current system. I'm curious to what this new system will be modeled after. We own DVC which is point based and I like it but I don't get how Marriott would convert a week system to a point system like DVC. If they can't do that then what would be the point of it. (I know Marriott would do it to generate more revenue). But I think, too many timeshare holders own in multiple systems that it might be harder to convince them. I know, my aunt who owns at Marriott Maui would not convert. She even bought direct from Marriott and paid around $11k. I can't imagine that she would pay $5000 to convert her week. That would be absurd.

SueDonJ · Jul 28, 2009

RandR said:
Many people here have said that Marriott wouldn't do this because it would bring resale prices to zero. This may not be the case. Many if not most people who buy timeshares direct are those that do it on impulse at a sales presentation (TUGgers excluded). They don't even think about the resale question and if they do, I'm sure the salesperson will have a snappy answer for it.

I don't think resale prices will be brought to zero by any exchange program because there will always be people who only want to use their weeks to travel to their own resorts every year. Consider that the lack of MRP-exchange value in current resales is a non-existent factor for those who buy resale. There will be a smaller pool of resale buyers, sure, if a diminished resort exchange program is attached to resales, but the number won't be zero.

It's always been my thought that Marriott/MVCI concerns itself less than some on TUG think with the profit/loss margins that owners realize on the resale market. BUT with the relatively recent explosion of resale opportunities on the internet, it makes sense to me that Marriott/MVCI do something to get in on the action.

The only points program that I know anything about is DVC, so I'm looking forward to reading this thread because I know you people will provide a great education. Seriously, no sarcasm or snarkiness intended.

****

Dave, have a grand time sailing the seven seas. Again.

arch53 · Jul 28, 2009

Thanks For Info

Dave,
Just wanted to say thanks for passing along the information. I appreciate your being willing to endure some slings and arrows in order to keep us up to date on the latest thinking. I do not own Marriott but bought (resale) into Worldmark recently to trade through II. I was fully aware-thanks to your posts - of the risk that much of the future exchange activity for Marriotts would occur outside of II. When Marriott adopts its own internal trading system my hope is that--similar to Hyatt's current participation in II -- there will still some, albeit limited, availablity through II. If not, then that's just the way it goes. Overall, change to all the timeshare sytems over time is probably inevitable. It is through TUG and volunteers such as you that people like me can maximize their trading status in II, regardless what system is eventually adopted. Again Thanks.

davidvel · Jul 28, 2009

BocaBum99 said:
After thinking about a 6 month rule, I don't see how it could stand. Let's say you spent $50k to buy a 2 br Platinum Maui Marriott Ocean Club. If Marriott changes the rules where the new buyer you sell to can only book out 6 months from check in, your platinum floating week becomes valueless. The new owner would never be able to get a summer week.

That would be some very extreme damages done to a basic right of ownership. I don't see how you can lose those rights unless you sign them over.

Maybe Marriott's plan is to coerce and scare platinum owners into converting their weeks into the program free of charge by threatening a 6 month rule.

If that's the case, there has to be something illegal about that. Not sure the legal term, but it would be like commercial blackmail. I think Carolinian has a term for it.

Would Marriott be so bold as to threaten or even implement such a rule. If they did, I'd dump all of my Marriott timeshares. That would be the single nost egregious act any timeshare company could actually try to pull off. This must be something different than I am thinking.

Absolutely impossible (legally) to change reservation rights to a "6 month rule" or any similar B.S. For the "legal" analysis see this post:
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=168

IT IS IN THE DEED. All owners (resale/direct) have equal reservation rights.
If bored, read the Declaration : http://www.veljovich.com/homeweb/index.php?page=tug

If Marriott were to do this I could write the Complaint in my sleep.

BocaBum99 · Jul 28, 2009

davidvel said:
Absolutely impossible (legally) to change reservation rights to a "6 month rule" or any similar B.S. For the "legal" analysis see this post:
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=168

IT IS IN THE DEED. All owners (resale/direct) have equal reservation rights.
If bored, read the Declaration : http://www.veljovich.com/homeweb/index.php?page=tug

If Marriott were to do this I could write the Complaint in my sleep.

Awesome! One thing, the link you provided above for the legal analysis doesn't work. Or, it is pointed to the wrong location.

EZ-ED · Jul 28, 2009

Dave,
Thanks for the info.

As a MSW gold resale owner I do what is best for me just as I expect Marriott will do what is best for Marriott. I bought resale because of price and I was aware of the limitations at the time (no chance of trading for points and since I'm not a points aficionado that loss was of little concern). If there had been a six month limitation on making a reservation we would not have bought as the use would have been to limiting.

I believe the key is to be an informed buyer which is difficult for those without access to TUG. While many may be in favor of points (Worldmark, RCI, Redweek, etc.) I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole. There are just to many variables to consider and many of them I don't control. So for me the Marriott point system is just another point scam that will benefit Marriott at my expense if I were to join. I'll pass on points and I'll stay with II for the occasional trade or use our units just as we have done in the past.

ciscogizmo1 · Jul 28, 2009

Has anyone read this post about the ASIA point system: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100469

After reading that post I do like that it is like DVC in that you can check-in any day fo the week. That is very attractive for me right now. I know, this is an emotional response to the post but to be able to leave the day after Christmas Day would be perfect. For example, this year we are using our resort from Fri to Fri. Christmas day is on our check - out day. However, my kdis want to spend Christmas at home so, we are leaving a day earlier. So, if the new system is anything like the ASIA system it just might tempt me but it all depends on price and how many people join.

I'm concerned if a lot of people jump ship and join the point system and I don't what will happen to my trades. I trade mostly to Marriott resorts and I've been happy with my trades. This is why I bought in the Marriott system because of the trading. I guess, I'll be happy staying at my home resort all the time but not what I bought a timeshare for. We bought to see other places if I wanted to return to the same place over and over I would have bought a cabin in Tahoe.

wsrobinson · Jul 28, 2009

Dave M said:
I can assure you, Jim, that this is not a "rumor". This is a project that has been in development for over two years. It's coming. That's why, even with much misinformation, sales reps have been talking about it in sales presentations for quite a while now.

Having been in IT for 20 plus years it would not surprise me at all to overrun the deadlines on a project of this magnitude. Listening to all of the parameters tossed around on this board, I wouldn't be surprised at all! This would be one very complicated and time consuming effort.

thinze3 · Jul 28, 2009

wsrobinson said:
Having been in IT for 20 plus years it would not surprise me at all to overrun the deadlines on a project of this magnitude. Listening to all of the parameters tossed around on this board, I wouldn't be surprised at all! This would be one very complicated and time consuming effort.

They have already overrun the deadline. Announced in late 2007, the deadline was originally early 2009 if I remember correctly.

AceValenta · Jul 28, 2009

Not to add a further kink into the thought process but when you own the deeded property...you own it. Most points memberships expire after a period of time.

I was just reading the MVCI AP thread ans their points will expire in 2056. Now, I know that is a long time away and I probably won't live that long but my kids may. That is one the selling points when you attend a seminar, "You can pass this onto your children."

So, if you pay to convert over to the point system will your points expire at a specified date or do you own them in perpitude?

wsrobinson · Jul 28, 2009

thinze3 said:
They have already overrun the deadline. Announced in late 2007, the deadline was originally early 2009 if I remember correctly.

I think I said I would not be surprised that they would overrun the deadline. Not sure why you inferred a past or present tense in that. Two years is not a long time in the life cycle of a software development project. Three is more reasonable for this (actually I would have said 3-5 years).

Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

BocaBum99

BocaBum99

PerryM

Dave M

saturn28

thinze3

Tug Review Crew

jimf41

CMF

BocaBum99

Dave M

RandR

Numismatist

Dave M

RandR

ciscogizmo1

Tug Review Crew: Rookie

SueDonJ

arch53

davidvel

BocaBum99

EZ-ED

ciscogizmo1

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wsrobinson

thinze3

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AceValenta

wsrobinson