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New Seasons?

arlene22

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Does anyone know why the seasons seem to have changed on the StarOption charts? For instance, at Harborside, Instead of Plat, Gold and Silver seasons, they are now called Platinum Plus, Platinum and Gold Plus. Is this supposed to make us feel richer something???

Nodge, can't wait to hear what you think of this one...:doh:
 
Grade inflation!
 
Nodge, can't wait to hear what you think of this one...:doh:

It appears that our (now bestest) friends at SVO are wedging a new season between the former Platinum and Gold seasons, and rather than think of a new metal name for that season, they've assigned all the seasons new names, more or less to distract folks from that wedged in new season. (To 'help" matters, SVO elected to make this new wedged-in season only a slightly different shade of gold from the old gold season's color on the charts -- thanks SVO).

No matter what SVO calls the seasons or what color they show up as on the charts, it'll be hard for SVO to hide the math. Take a look at the StarOptions needed for the new Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas ("WRMV"). 2 BR L/O peak season is still 148,100 StarOptions, but summer season will require 95,700 StarOptions, instead of 81,000 StarOptions needed for the same time and villa size at SMV.

This means that SMV (and SDO, WKV, etc.) 2 BR L/O gold members (and large one bedroom platinum members at these resorts) can't get a two bedroom at WRMV during the summer season without coughing up some more StarOptions.

In essence, SVO appears to have, ever so slightly, started devaluing existing owner StarOptions. But to fly under the radar for a little longer, it chose to do it in the middle seasons. I suspect we'll see more to come.

-nodge
 
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Where is the new StarOptions chart? Can someone please upload it to the Owner's Resources Sticky?

Thanks! Katherine
 
It appears that our (now bestest) friends at SVO are wedging a new season between the former Platinum and Gold seasons, and rather than think of a new metal name for that season, they've assigned all the seasons new names, more or less to distract folks from that wedged in new season. (To 'help" matters, SVO elected to make this new wedged-in season only a slightly different shade of gold from the old gold season's color on the charts -- thanks SVO).

No matter what SVO calls the seasons or what color they show up as on the charts, it'll be hard for SVO to hide the math. Take a look at the StarOptions needed for the new Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas ("WRMV"). 2 BR L/O peak season is still 148,100 StarOptions, but summer season will require 95,700 StarOptions, instead of 81,000 StarOptions needed for the same time and villa size at SMV.

This means that SMV (and SDO, WKV, etc.) 2 BR L/O gold members (and large one bedroom platinum members at these resorts) can't get a two bedroom at WRMV during the summer season without coughing up some more StarOptions.

In essence, SVO appears to have, ever so slightly, started devaluing existing owner StarOptions. But to fly under the radar for a little longer, it chose to do it in the middle seasons. I suspect we'll see more to come.

-nodge
I pointed this out on the DVC board here and was slammed .... but it REALLY stinks that the developer 'raises the bar' - makes the same size and season units MORE points at their newer properties forcing their old, loyal owners to buy more points to get the same thing at the newer resorts.
 
No matter what SVO calls the seasons or what color they show up as on the charts, it'll be hard for SVO to hide the math. Take a look at the StarOptions needed for the new Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas ("WRMV"). 2 BR L/O peak season is still 148,100 StarOptions, but summer season will require 95,700 StarOptions, instead of 81,000 StarOptions needed for the same time and villa size at SMV.

This means that SMV (and SDO, WKV, etc.) 2 BR L/O gold members (and large one bedroom platinum members at these resorts) can't get a two bedroom at WRMV during the summer season without coughing up some more StarOptions.

In essence, SVO appears to have, ever so slightly, started devaluing existing owner StarOptions. But to fly under the radar for a little longer, it chose to do it in the middle seasons. I suspect we'll see more to come.

-nodge
I had my fill of "surprise and delight" when I read this. My 81000 staroptions are looking pretty devalued right now.One good point I'm not interested in any of the new resort locations....Yet....
 
I just tried to upload the new StarOption chart, but I'm at my upload memory limit on TUG.

Here is a link to it, but it is behind the mystarcentral login page, so it may not work without first logging into mystarcentral.

Let's keep the old StarOption chart handy someplace so that we can all compare and contrast the changes.

-nodge
 
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I sent the chart to our esteemed Moderator - since you can only see the chart if you can log onto MSC - and we need to replace the one in the Stickies.

On topic - I can not believe I am in disagreement with my SVO anti-hero 'nodge'. {who, btw, I am still waiting to see a pic on our photo page...}, but I am not slamming.

As any owner of 3 separate VOIs that are worth 81K SOs (with 2 other VOIs at 148.1K SOs) - I do not see a devaluation with existing VOIs or ones in the process of being built. WSJ SOs were undervalued - as I think most agree - and the recent move brings them into better alignment.

I just looked over this chart - and I see no real misalignment between the listed resorts except maybe for Steamboat Springs - but not Westin Riverfront. The rest seem the same and a reasonable balance.

Perhaps I am missing something?
 
I just looked over this chart - and I see no real misalignment between the listed resorts except maybe for Steamboat Springs - but not Westin Riverfront. The rest seem the same and a reasonable balance.

Perhaps I am missing something?

If future resorts Staroptions follow the course of Steamboat Springs then a serious devaluation of staroptions has begun.
 
I sent the chart to our esteemed Moderator - since you can only see the chart if you can log onto MSC - and we need to replace the one in the Stickies.

Yes - thank you David :hi: and Pat! :hi:

If you are wondering why I havn't posted the new Staroptions Chart yet, it is because it is hosted on the Starwood Advice page, and I don't have editing privileges there. The one in the sticky is actually linked to the advice page. It will be up soon!
 
I just looked over this chart - and I see no real misalignment between the listed resorts except maybe for Steamboat Springs - but not Westin Riverfront. The rest seem the same and a reasonable balance.

Perhaps I am missing something?

I'm kind of with David on this one. While I think the new mid-season valuations at Westin Riverfront & Sheraton Steamboat are interesting, and I think we should keep an eye on future resorts, I think this may be specific to these two--perhaps Summer season in Colorado is more popular than anticipated?

I also find it interesting that in the newer phases at Vistana Villages (Amelia & St. Augustine), the 3 bedroom LOs have less SOs attached than the 3 bedroom LO in the Keywest phase. A reverse devaluation--is there a term for that?

At this point, it looks to me like Starwood will tinker SO valuations in both directions.

Glorian
 
FYI If anyone else was interested in the new staroptions chart, the link above worked for me without logging into mystarcentral. I'm quite sure I wasn't logged in, because I'm not yet a starwood owner!

Michael
 
Here is another interesting devaluation. We just bought Fountains with the new deal of it joining SVN. We get 76,000 SOs to use in the SVN for each unit we buy. BUT to trade into Fountains (or Beach Club), you need 81,000 SOs. They didn't offer purchasers the key 81,000 SOs to trade into 1BR elsewhere yet want that much from those poor folks who want to stay at SVR.

Within SVR, the 76,000 SOs will be enough to trade into Beach Club or other SVRs (mini-SVN system as others have mentioned). But for the whole network, 76,000 SOs is not enough for much of anything. I didn't care much because we bought in pairs so 76,000x2 will get us past the key 148,100 threshold for a 2BR.

Katherine
 
There are a few point bumps in the new chart, too. In addition to the St. John 2- and 3-bedroom changes that we previously heard about, the Studio has taken a slight increase as well.
 
I'm kind of with David on this one. While I think the new mid-season valuations at Westin Riverfront & Sheraton Steamboat are interesting, and I think we should keep an eye on future resorts, I think this may be specific to these two--perhaps Summer season in Colorado is more popular than anticipated?

I also find it interesting that in the newer phases at Vistana Villages (Amelia & St. Augustine), the 3 bedroom LOs have less SOs attached than the 3 bedroom LO in the Keywest phase. A reverse devaluation--is there a term for that?

Glorian
The Keywest phase 3 bedrooms have a lot more sq. footage than the other phases....The Key West phase 3 bed is 2227 sq. ft the Amelia Phase 3 bed is 1651 sq. ft...they don't list the St Augustiine secition vlla sizes but rooms seem to be shrinking. I guess I should be happy according to the color chart I'm now a plat plus owner :banana:
 
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I just looked over this chart - and I see no real misalignment between the listed resorts except maybe for Steamboat Springs - but not Westin Riverfront. The rest seem the same and a reasonable balance.

Perhaps I am missing something?

If I owned a Sheraton Mountain Vista two bedroom lock-off summer season (weeks 21-39), it would be worth 81,000 StarOptions. Then, one day, SVO decides to build another timeshare down the street. Great! But when it decides to make a week 21-39 (the exact same weeks that I own) two bedroom lockoff (the exact same villa size that I own) at that new resort cost 95,700 StarOptions to trade into, I'd call that StarOption devaluation for existing owners.

If summer season in Avon is truly worth more StarOptions, SVO should also increase the summer season SMV owners' StarOptions accordingly.

Regarding 3 bedrooms, larger units, WSJ, so be it. SVO is offering more room to justify the increase, or a possibility to actually trade into WSJ with its increased StarOptions, so I've no beef with those. But, like it or not, mid-season Avon is definitely a devaluation for existing SVN owners. And just like every other thing SVO does to screw existing owners, we'll all just take it (but we don't have to like it).

-nodge
 
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Here is another interesting devaluation. We just bought Fountains with the new deal of it joining SVN. We get 76,000 SOs to use in the SVN for each unit we buy. BUT to trade into Fountains (or Beach Club), you need 81,000 SOs. They didn't offer purchasers the key 81,000 SOs to trade into 1BR elsewhere yet want that much from those poor folks who want to stay at SVR.

Within SVR, the 76,000 SOs will be enough to trade into Beach Club or other SVRs (mini-SVN system as others have mentioned). But for the whole network, 76,000 SOs is not enough for much of anything. I didn't care much because we bought in pairs so 76,000x2 will get us past the key 148,100 threshold for a 2BR.

Katherine
Time to update that signature again :rolleyes: :cool: :ignore:
 
If I owned a Sheraton Mountain Vista two bedroom lock-off summer season (weeks 21-39), it would be worth 81,000 StarOptions. Then, one day, SVO decides to build another timeshare down the street. Great! But when it decides to make a week 21-39 (the exact same weeks that I own) two bedroom lockoff (the exact same villa size that I own) at that new resort cost 95,700 StarOptions to trade into, I'd call that StarOption devaluation for existing owners.

If summer season in Avon is truly worth more StarOptions, SVO should also increase the summer season SMV owners' StarOptions accordingly.

Regarding 3 bedrooms, larger units, WSJ, so be it. SVO is offering more room to justify the increase, or a possibility to actually trading into WSJ with its increased StarOptions, so I've no beef with those. But, like it or not, mid-season Avon is definitely a devaluation for existing SVN owners. And just like every other thing SVO does to screw existing owners, we'll all just take it (but we don't have to like it).

-nodge

I didn't deny there was some imbalance, but I must admit I know nothing about these resorts - MFs - sizes - between the seasons and locations to know whether it matters to me or not (probably not because it is not an exchange I would ever do in the first place). I am just looking at the chart as an overall view - and seems like most of the main resorts are balanced - and attempts to rebalance seem to be reasonably fair. I am generally not a SVO/SVN defender, but I do not think any chart could be perfect where someone didn't feel as if they are getting the shaft. They seem to account for the quality of the resorts (perhaps) which adds perspective. We would never buy/exchange/trade into a SVV or SVR - or any other of the Sheratons for that matter - until Poipu comes on line.

Take a look at the vastness of the resorts, seasons, locations, and quality. With WSJ - they created a type of unit (and very expensive) that needed more SOs and changed the balance accordingly (in our favor - from my viewpoint).

I bought resale WKV (x2), WKORV, and WSJ - and WPORV (eoy) from SVO with open eyes and from a knowledgable basis (thanks to you and other Tuggers). I see the impact of these SO reclassifications as overall fair and balanced for probably over 90% of the Owners - and probably for all the Westin and HRA Owners.

What is now extremely imbalanced is the SO to SP conversion for WSJ - we get 22K SPs for our week (big whoop) worth 81K SOs now. Not that raising it would help...
 
FWIW, Riverfront seems to "cost" a similar amount of options as Harborside, especially in the gold/plat seasons.

Riverfront:
2bd LO 148,100, 95,700, 46,500
1bd 81,000, 51,700, 25,800
Studio 67,100, 44,000, 20,700

Harborside:
3bd LO 196,900, 125,000, 104,100
2bd LO 148,100, 95,700, 81,000
2bd 129,800, 81,000, 67,100
1bd 81,000, 57,700, 44,000
1bd 67,100, 44,000, 37,000

FWIW, I haven't been to SMV, but from what I've read it's going to be hard to compare it positively (feature to feature and location to location) with Riverfront. I believe I read Riverfront will be walking distance to the gondola (correct?) whereas SMV is a drive. For skiing, that's a huge benefit and worth extra. I don't agree that two resorts in the same region need to be valued at the same options, and I think that the perspective that they should be the same as a matter of course is a flawed viewpoint (sorry, just my opinion!).

So, I can't see this as a devalue of options at all, at least *not yet*. I have this opinion since I believe that buying into SVN guarantees exchanges to other *existing* properties at the option rate that are present at the time of purchase (resales not included), and that SVN has the right to increase the options on new properties. After all, they're charging significantly more now for those properties than the older ones...so why wouldn't they change the options around at some point? I have no illusion that my options will last forever with SVN in that I would be able to exchange into a similar size unit at a resort built in 2015 or 2020, but I do believe I will continue to exchange into the current resorts at that time.

It is interesting, though, that the only major change (comparing SMV and Riverfront) is in the Gold season.
 
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FWIW, Riverfront seems to "cost" a similar amount of options as Harborside, especially in the gold/plat seasons.

Riverfront:
2bd LO 148,100, 95,700, 46,500
1bd 81,000, 51,700, 25,800
Studio 67,100, 44,000, 20,700

Harborside:
3bd LO 196,900, 125,000, 104,100
2bd LO 148,100, 95,700, 81,000
2bd 129,800, 81,000, 67,100
1bd 81,000, 57,700, 44,000
1bd 67,100, 44,000, 37,000

FWIW, I haven't been to SMV, but from what I've read it's going to be hard to compare it positively (feature to feature and location to location) with Riverfront. I believe I read Riverfront will be walking distance to the gondola (correct?) whereas SMV is a drive. For skiing, that's a huge benefit and worth extra. I don't agree that two resorts in the same region need to be valued at the same options, and I think that the perspective that they should be the same as a matter of course is a flawed viewpoint (sorry, just my opinion!).

So, I can't see this as a devalue of options at all, at least *not yet*. I have this opinion since I believe that buying into SVN guarantees exchanges to other *existing* properties at the option rate that are present at the time of purchase (resales not included), and that SVN has the right to increase the options on new properties. After all, they're charging significantly more now for those properties than the older ones...so why wouldn't they change the options around at some point? I have no illusion that my options will last forever with SVN in that I would be able to exchange into a similar size unit at a resort built in 2015 or 2020, but I do believe I will continue to exchange into the current resorts at that time.

It is interesting, though, that the only major change (comparing SMV and Riverfront) is in the Gold season.

Can't disagree with you more. These are lifetime deeds which means you are stuck with what you own forever (or take a 90% cut trying to resell it). Starwood allows older resorts to get dilapidated and then owners get a pleasant "assessment" that is above and beyond the ever-increasing MFs to pay to refurbish them (once they lose a crown or two of ratings).

Owners who plan ahead and own for more than a few years are slowly but surely ripped off by an evolving system. That should not happen. The PRICE that they sell the resorts at should be increased for nicer resorts (Riverfront vs SMV) but the SOs should stay the same. Otherwise, my children will inherit a huge liability rather than a nice opportunity.

BTW, the gondola is ON SITE at Riverfront. Hence the insane price tag we are about to see compared to SMV.

Katherine
 
Hey Kath: Cannot agree with you more -- Starwood/Westin appears to only be interested in the Sales end; not with the owners once you buy. :(
 
Can't disagree with you more. These are lifetime deeds which means you are stuck with what you own forever (or take a 90% cut trying to resell it). Starwood allows older resorts to get dilapidated and then owners get a pleasant "assessment" that is above and beyond the ever-increasing MFs to pay to refurbish them (once they lose a crown or two of ratings).

Owners who plan ahead and own for more than a few years are slowly but surely ripped off by an evolving system. That should not happen. The PRICE that they sell the resorts at should be increased for nicer resorts (Riverfront vs SMV) but the SOs should stay the same. Otherwise, my children will inherit a huge liability rather than a nice opportunity.

BTW, the gondola is ON SITE at Riverfront. Hence the insane price tag we are about to see compared to SMV.

Katherine

AMEN Sister!!!!

If SVO starts using perceived resort "quality," rather than pure season/villa size/location, as a factor for determining StarOption "costs," who knows for whom the bell tolls next?. The same argument could be made in Scottsdale or Palm Desert (when Westin Desert Willow comes on-line. Then, even you "Westin is better" folks may even start whining. SVO is treading in very dangerous waters here.

I think SVO is offering more StarOptions to BUYERS of summer season at the Avon Westin because it anticipates trouble selling those weeks, not that they will be in higher damand. The net result is that it “costs” more for us owners to go there, but that is probably only an ancillary consequence of SVO’s desire to sell off-season units there.

-nodge

Oh Yeah, if being walking distance to the new Gondola is so darned important, why didn't SVO increase the SKI WEEK StarOptions at the new Avon Westin?
 
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I pointed this out on the DVC board here and was slammed .... but it REALLY stinks that the developer 'raises the bar' - makes the same size and season units MORE points at their newer properties forcing their old, loyal owners to buy more points to get the same thing at the newer resorts.

Can't disagree with you more. These are lifetime deeds which means you are stuck with what you own forever (or take a 90% cut trying to resell it). Starwood allows older resorts to get dilapidated and then owners get a pleasant "assessment" that is above and beyond the ever-increasing MFs to pay to refurbish them (once they lose a crown or two of ratings).

Owners who plan ahead and own for more than a few years are slowly but surely ripped off by an evolving system. That should not happen. The PRICE that they sell the resorts at should be increased for nicer resorts (Riverfront vs SMV) but the SOs should stay the same. Otherwise, my children will inherit a huge liability rather than a nice opportunity.

BTW, the gondola is ON SITE at Riverfront. Hence the insane price tag we are about to see compared to SMV.

Katherine
Hey Kath: Cannot agree with you more -- Starwood/Westin appears to only be interested in the Sales end; not with the owners once you buy. :(

AMEN Sister!!!!

If SVO starts using perceived resort "quality," rather than pure season/villa size/location, as a factor for determining StarOption "costs," who knows for whom the bell tolls next?. The same argument could be made in Scottsdale or Palm Desert (when Westin Desert Willow comes on-line. Then, even you "Westin is better" folks may even start whining. SVO is treading in very dangerous waters here.

I think SVO is offering more StarOptions to BUYERS of summer season at the Avon Westin because it anticipates trouble selling those weeks, not that they will be in higher damand. The net result is that it “costs” more for us owners to go there, but that is probably only an ancillary consequence of SVO’s desire to sell off-season units there.

-nodge
Yup..... :rolleyes:
 
Starwood/Westin appears to only be interested in the Sales end; not with the owners once you buy. :(
But what about the Hillside owners at St. John? Most of them just got a point boost, didn't they?
 
Can't disagree with you more.

Hmm...let's see about that. Read below and you might. ;)

These are lifetime deeds which means you are stuck with what you own forever (or take a 90% cut trying to resell it).

Huh? 90%? Where did that number come from? Didn't you buy resale? As others know based on my past postings, my purchase of both WMH and WKR were resale, and I expect I would get about what I paid, give or take a little, if I tried to sell today. Even if you were defending direct purchasers, they don't lose 90%. So, I'm confused.

Starwood allows older resorts to get dilapidated and then owners get a pleasant "assessment" that is above and beyond the ever-increasing MFs to pay to refurbish them (once they lose a crown or two of ratings).

Are you sure? Is it "Starwood" that allows resorts to "get dilapidated" or it is simply industry standard for resorts to require assessments over time to modernize their infrastructure. My home requires work now and then, doesn't yours? Many annual assessments (ie. maintenance fees) don't include enough of a reserve to pay all future expenses, which then results in the necessity of special assessments. Why would you assume Starwood is out to get us in this manner? And, for what it's worth, if that's the case wouldn't it be the resort Board that is doing this to us, and not Starwood? Of course, much of the Board may be made up of those indebted to Starwood in some fashion.

Owners who plan ahead and own for more than a few years are slowly but surely ripped off by an evolving system. That should not happen. The PRICE that they sell the resorts at should be increased for nicer resorts (Riverfront vs SMV) but the SOs should stay the same. Otherwise, my children will inherit a huge liability rather than a nice opportunity.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that new resorts should cost more to purchase but equal the trade power of older resorts. Sorry, that makes no sense to me. Honestly, I'd like it if it was true but I just can't see that happening over the long term. And, I completely disagree with your belief that your children would assume a "huge liability" - they would have every right to continue to use the property you purchased and any others they could trade into at that time.

What makes you think the system is going to remain static and not evolve with the economy and undoubtedly changing management at Starwood and elsewhere?

After reviewing the major t/s options, I elected to buy into Starwood's system for two main reasons.

1. I like the properties and the stated future development locations.

2. It was a new system, as compared to others. This meant that most of the resorts were relatively new.

I felt that because it was new I would be able to use my ownership for a longer period of time before any unfortunate change is introduced - such as the one we're discussing. I didn't believe it would last forever. And, I am thrilled that my ownership allows me to go to *all* of the new properties, if I wanted to, in at least some size unit. And, really, that's the reason I bought.

BTW, the gondola is ON SITE at Riverfront. Hence the insane price tag we are about to see compared to SMV.

Excellent. So - for some - that increases its perceived value as compared with other properties in the area.

I have to make a general comment here. I'd appreciate a bit more objectivity in these posts. I agree with your stated goal that future properties be valued the same as current, or past, resorts so that we can trade into them. But I think we're being quite short-sighted if we don't, objectivity, realize that this simply may not be a realistic viewpoint.

We all know not to believe the sales staff at *any* t/s resort. Likewise, I know my rights as a WKR owner is that I actually own at the "Scottsdale Sonoran Villas Owners Association" and not an entity called "Westin Kierland Villas", and that my rights to exchange within SVN are limited to SVNs approval based on various factors (which I believe include the upkeep of the resort over time). But, there may be a day where my SVN membership gets canceled because other "Sonoran Villas" owners decide not to vote in favor of a special assessment, and as a direct result SVN excludes the property from the internal exchange program. That is the reality as I know it. It is a limitation of the timeshare system which I accepted when I purchased - and which you accepted, as well - knowingly, or unknowingly.

Again, let's take a step back and objectively understand what it is that we own, our use rights, and a possible outcome that (shock) may not be what you believed when last spoke with the sales staff.
 
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