Worldmark or Wyndham points?

RX8 · Jan 3, 2013

I see a Sumday auction that ended on the 29th at 1275 plus an additional $299 closing. Is that yours? If it is that is not a bad price but you need to verify you are getting what you are thinking you bought. The heading says 7,000 credits but the details state it is only 6,000 annual points.

slabeaume · Jan 3, 2013

Myxdvz said:
Interesting Topic: one in which I am also trying to decide.

In the beginning - it looks like the suggestion is to buy where you want to stay (or resorts closer to you)... but towards the end, it looks like most posters say there are more advantages to WM over Wyndham...

Or did I misread the posts?

I live in the Midwest (Chicago) so neither East or West Coast... so I'm still torn

I live in the midwest, too (St. Louis) Not a lot of timeshare resorts in the midwest unless you like Lake of the Ozarks or Branson. We use to go to Oregon every year which is how we ended up buying WM. Now we go to Hawaii every year and converted our timeshare in Kauai to Wyndham a few years ago or would never have ended up as a VIP Wyndham member. At first, I thought I made a big mistake. But have finally figured out some ways to work the system. Now, if only they had kennels on site!!!

slabeaume · Jan 3, 2013

Myxdvz said:
Interesting Topic: one in which I am also trying to decide.

In the beginning - it looks like the suggestion is to buy where you want to stay (or resorts closer to you)... but towards the end, it looks like most posters say there are more advantages to WM over Wyndham...

Or did I misread the posts?

I live in the Midwest (Chicago) so neither East or West Coast... so I'm still torn

I agree with Ronparise---I bought for the resorts I thought I would use the most---originally Oregon so I got WM. Now we go to Kauai most of the time so use Wyndham for that. I've also used WM for several RCI and II exchanges (can't use II with my Wyndham). Now most of my WM points go for exchanges or to sending my kids on trips. Although we're using 2 years worth now for our trip to Maui next month. REally like that you can borrow points from the next year in WM. Although I like the VIP perks with Wyndham, I wish they had more policies that WM has.

LLW · Jan 4, 2013

OpenSky2012 said:
My bad for not mentioning that. I paid $1500 and transfer fees. I agree and understand on buying a point based membership. I am not aware of the next steps. Waiting for WM board to approve the transfer. Once I get that notification, I would need to know that next steps. Any guidance for the next steps (WMOwners Forum post, any link or text) would help.

Still need more info: how many current balance credits and what are their expiration dates? how many to borrowed credits? how many housekeeping tokens? how much for closing costs?

Myxdvz · Jan 4, 2013

ronparise said:
When you leave Chicago which way do you turn. Do you go east or west

I own in both systems and although I agree the Worldmark system is the one I prefer. The resorts I want to visit would be the trump card.

If you intend on spending a lot of vacations at the Florida beaches..buy Wyndham, If you have to have Washington DC or the North East ski resorts, it has to be Wyndham. You should also know that Wyndham has a property in the Wisconsin Dells complete with an indoor water park. (think swimming pools and water slides in the winter) That seems to me to be a perfect drive to, weekend get-away for you...Also Worldmark and Wyndham both have inventory at the Galena resort

Your call...good luck

This is easy to answer... We go North (WI/MN) or East (OH/PA). Based on resorts, I would go with Wyndham. Glacier Canyon is a great property.

I didn't want to steal the OPs thread so I created another one. Thanks!

lcml11 · Jan 4, 2013

Myxdvz said:
This is easy to answer... We go North (WI/MN) or East (OH/PA). Based on resorts, I would go with Wyndham. Glacier Canyon is a great property.

I didn't want to steal the OPs thread so I created another one. Thanks!

Pa. is a great place, just not a massive amount of timeshares for anyone. Wyndham Club Plus, as far as I can tell, is the major player in Pa. with the Shawnee Mountain group of resorts in the Pocono Mountains. Another little bit of travel gets you to their Atlantic City resort. As you are probably aware, if you buy at Glacier Canyon for a unit that is in Club Wyndham Plus/Access, that will get you into the other resorts. Shawnee Village and Skyline Tower (Atlantic City) are not real hard to get into.

Myxdvz · Jan 4, 2013

I've decided against creating another thread about: Wyndham or Worldmark, because I think this discussion helps everyone who is in the same boat.

I've read the Wyndham Primer and the Worldmark Club Guidelines, and the WMOwners site and I am STILL conflicted.

Why I like Wyndham
- More properties within driving distance from me: Galena, Wisconsin Dells, Branson, Oklahoma, Tenessee
- Someone asked if we leave Chicago, which way do we drive: and the easy answer to this is North (WI/MN) and East (OH, PA, NY, FL, NC, SC) so Wyndham resorts are better for us
- While WM has more properties in the W and NW, Wyndham does have SOME, unlike WM's complete absence in the East Coast.

Why I like WorldMark
- Points are very simple. MFs are per point and I don't have to worry about a home resort and deciding which resort to buy and find the lowest home resort MF
- I like Bonus Time, Monday Madness, and all the other "specials" they seem to have and works well with our short-stays. However, what's the use of these specials if I have to FLY to get there and have very little within driving distance?

What I don't like about Wyndham
- seems like I have to decide on a home resort to purchase. I believe that "points are points" so probably wouldn't be taking advantage of ADRs anyway - so I tend to think I should buy the lowest MF However, I also hear Glacier Canyon gives access the Club Wyndham access , so should I buy there?
- seems to have way too may fees unless you're VIP. Fees to bank, fees to book if over your allocation for the year, fees to cancel, HK fees, fees to change booking. We will be using our points for shorter stays (3-5 days) so we might be hit with too many fees.
- is there anything equivalent to WM Bonus Time, HH Open Season? Where you have access to the portfolio for discounted cash?

What I don't like about Worldmark
- Aside from Galena and Branson - no other resorts fit our travel pattern (driving distance)
- my understanding is that there is a 7 night requirement when booking in RED season? Although people get around that by linking other reservations elsewhere. Not sure I get this quite yet. But I don't like this "restriction" since we're looking into using this for shorter stays. OTOH, maybe we can avoid booking red season.

If I buy Wyndham, I'm thinking about 164K points
If I buy WM, I'm thinking about 10,000 points

I was hoping to keep yearly MFs under $1K, approx ~$800
I was hoping to get enough points to stay in a 2BR for a week (driving distance will help us stretch those points and go off season)

Help?!!!

lcml11 · Jan 4, 2013

Myxdvz said:
I've decided against creating another thread about: Wyndham or Worldmark, because I think this discussion helps everyone who is in the same boat.

I've read the Wyndham Primer and the Worldmark Club Guidelines, and the WMOwners site and I am STILL conflicted.

Why I like Wyndham
- More properties within driving distance from me: Galena, Wisconsin Dells, Branson, Oklahoma, Tenessee
- Someone asked if we leave Chicago, which way do we drive: and the easy answer to this is North (WI/MN) and East (OH, PA, NY, FL, NC, SC) so Wyndham resorts are better for us
- While WM has more properties in the W and NW, Wyndham does have SOME, unlike WM's complete absence in the East Coast.

Why I like WorldMark
- Points are very simple. MFs are per point and I don't have to worry about a home resort and deciding which resort to buy and find the lowest home resort MF
- I like Bonus Time, Monday Madness, and all the other "specials" they seem to have and works well with our short-stays. However, what's the use of these specials if I have to FLY to get there and have very little within driving distance?

What I don't like about Wyndham
- seems like I have to decide on a home resort to purchase. I believe that "points are points" so probably wouldn't be taking advantage of ADRs anyway - so I tend to think I should buy the lowest MF However, I also hear Glacier Canyon gives access the Club Wyndham access , so should I buy there?
- seems to have way too may fees unless you're VIP. Fees to bank, fees to book if over your allocation for the year, fees to cancel, HK fees, fees to change booking. We will be using our points for shorter stays (3-5 days) so we might be hit with too many fees.
- is there anything equivalent to WM Bonus Time, HH Open Season? Where you have access to the portfolio for discounted cash?

What I don't like about Worldmark
- Aside from Galena and Branson - no other resorts fit our travel pattern (driving distance)
- my understanding is that there is a 7 night requirement when booking in RED season? Although people get around that by linking other reservations elsewhere. Not sure I get this quite yet. But I don't like this "restriction" since we're looking into using this for shorter stays. OTOH, maybe we can avoid booking red season.

If I buy Wyndham, I'm thinking about 164K points
If I buy WM, I'm thinking about 10,000 points

I was hoping to keep yearly MFs under $1K, approx ~$800
I was hoping to get enough points to stay in a 2BR for a week (driving distance will help us stretch those points and go off season)

Help?!!!

Not sure what you mean when you say "However, I also hear Glacier Canyon gives access the Club Wyndham Access" It is my understanding that most if not all Wyndham Club/Access resorts can be booked at or below the 10 month period. The difference in the context that I think you are talking about has to do the ARP.

Myxdvz · Jan 4, 2013

lcml11 said:
Not sure what you mean when you say "However, I also hear Glacier Canyon gives access the Club Wyndham Access" It is my understanding that most if not all Wyndham Club/Access resorts can be booked at or below the 10 month period. The difference in the context that I think you are talking about has to do the ARP.

You're probably right. the whole CWA still confuses me. I really don't care about ARP. I am fine with a 10 month booking window. I subscribe to the points are points mantra.

ronparise · Jan 4, 2013

Myxdvz said:
I've decided against creating another thread about: Wyndham or Worldmark, because I think this discussion helps everyone who is in the same boat.

I've read the Wyndham Primer and the Worldmark Club Guidelines, and the WMOwners site and I am STILL conflicted.

Why I like Wyndham
- More properties within driving distance from me: Galena, Wisconsin Dells, Branson, Oklahoma, Tenessee
- Someone asked if we leave Chicago, which way do we drive: and the easy answer to this is North (WI/MN) and East (OH, PA, NY, FL, NC, SC) so Wyndham resorts are better for us
- While WM has more properties in the W and NW, Wyndham does have SOME, unlike WM's complete absence in the East Coast.

Why I like WorldMark
- Points are very simple. MFs are per point and I don't have to worry about a home resort and deciding which resort to buy and find the lowest home resort MF
- I like Bonus Time, Monday Madness, and all the other "specials" they seem to have and works well with our short-stays. However, what's the use of these specials if I have to FLY to get there and have very little within driving distance?

What I don't like about Wyndham
- seems like I have to decide on a home resort to purchase. I believe that "points are points" so probably wouldn't be taking advantage of ADRs anyway - so I tend to think I should buy the lowest MF However, I also hear Glacier Canyon gives access the Club Wyndham access , so should I buy there?
- seems to have way too may fees unless you're VIP. Fees to bank, fees to book if over your allocation for the year, fees to cancel, HK fees, fees to change booking. We will be using our points for shorter stays (3-5 days) so we might be hit with too many fees.
- is there anything equivalent to WM Bonus Time, HH Open Season? Where you have access to the portfolio for discounted cash?

What I don't like about Worldmark
- Aside from Galena and Branson - no other resorts fit our travel pattern (driving distance)
- my understanding is that there is a 7 night requirement when booking in RED season? Although people get around that by linking other reservations elsewhere. Not sure I get this quite yet. But I don't like this "restriction" since we're looking into using this for shorter stays. OTOH, maybe we can avoid booking red season.

If I buy Wyndham, I'm thinking about 164K points
If I buy WM, I'm thinking about 10,000 points

I was hoping to keep yearly MFs under $1K, approx ~$800
I was hoping to get enough points to stay in a 2BR for a week (driving distance will help us stretch those points and go off season)

Help?!!!

I think you've laid it out quite well, although I think you have overstated the junk fee problem with Wyndham.

Regarding housekeeping, In the Wyndham system your 168000 account will give you enough housekeeping credits for 2 reservations in a one or two bedroom unit or as many as 6 studio reservations. Remember with Worldmark you will get only one housekeeping credit. with your 10000 credit account. Make two short stay reservations and you will pay a housekeeping fee there too

Fees to bank, fees to book if over your allocation for the year, fees to cancel, fees to change booking. These are all the same fee..the transaction fee.If you plan ahead the two you will get should be enough. and if you are like me and dont..the $30 wont break the bank

I dont know what you mean when you say Glacier Canyon give you access to Club Wyndham Access...Club Wyndham Access gives you access to Glacier Canyon, not the other way around

The Worldmark bonus time and the other "cash rather than credits" programs you mention are actually more expensive than maintenance fees, ie you are better off using credits than dollars I think. Wyndham has no such cash only programs.

A difference you didnt mention is Exchange companies. If you want an exchange company either RCI or II you will pay for your own account with Worldmark. Wyndham includes an account with your maintenance and program fees...Why is this important? RCI has a last call program where you can reserve a week (subject to availability) for under $300; cash only, no points.

You have all the facts, now you have to decide...We cant do it for you

Myxdvz · Jan 4, 2013

ronparise said:
I think you've laid it out quite well, although I think you have overstated the junk fee problem with Wyndham.

Regarding housekeeping, In the Wyndham system your 168000 account will give you enough housekeeping credits for 2 reservations in a one or two bedroom unit or as many as 6 studio reservations. Remember with Worldmark you will get only one housekeeping credit. with your 10000 credit account. Make two short stay reservations and you will pay a housekeeping fee there too

Fees to bank, fees to book if over your allocation for the year, fees to cancel, fees to change booking. These are all the same fee..the transaction fee.If you plan ahead the two you will get should be enough. and if you are like me and dont..the $30 wont break the bank

Great to hear that I have understood all the materials I've read correctly! And good to know that I am overstating the fees. Realistically, with 164K or 10000 points I can only make 1 or 2 short-stay reservations so hopefully that's within allocation and if not, not too expensive. ($30)

ronparise said:
A difference you didnt mention is Exchange companies. If you want an exchange company either RCI or II you will pay for your own account with Worldmark. Wyndham includes an account with your maintenance and program fees...Why is this important? RCI has a last call program where you can reserve a week (subject to availability) for under $300; cash only, no points.

I think the reason why I don't look at the Exchange companies is that I see them as a nice bonus, i.e., I am not buying these points to trade outside of the Wyndam/Worldmark collection. But - in case I do, it is nice to know what's available. I am guessing there's exchange fees involved if I do deposit my points and make a reservation?

Question: I think I've read that Wyndham owns RCI so I guess its a + for Wyndham and we will have access to a larger RCI collection than what we get from DVC. I am guessing the last call program is not available to me thru my DVC membership?

ronparise said:
You have all the facts, now you have to decide...We cant do it for you

Yeah - I think I am going with Wyndham.

ronparise said:
I dont know what you mean when you say Glacier Canyon give you access to Club Wyndham Access...Club Wyndham Access gives you access to Glacier Canyon, not the other way around

I read more about CWA and it looks like that is a pure point system (?) similar to Worldmark and MVCI without a home resort? If this is right, the question now is

- do I get CWA points?
- do I get a deeded property and convert to points?

I think this is where I am a bit confused. I thought Wyndham are just points (like DVC) - so this whole CWA confuses me.

- if I go with a deeded resale. Do I go with the property with cheapest MF non-coastal property? Or do I buy at Glacier Canyon which I think we will visit every year?

I checked the MF spreadsheet and the MF for CWA is 4.89 (I'm guessing this is per 1K) and GC is 5.65.

I read that purchase price for CWA points is more than a deeded property.

lcml11 · Jan 4, 2013

Myxdvz said:
... Realistically, with 164K or 10000 points I can only make 1 or 2 short-stay reservations so hopefully that's within allocation and if not, not too expensive. ($30) ... Question: I think I've read that Wyndham owns RCI so I guess its a + for Wyndham and we will have access to a larger RCI collection than what we get from DVC. I am guessing the last call program is not available to me thru my DVC membership? ... I read more about CWA and it looks like that is a pure point system (?) similar to Worldmark and MVCI without a home resort? If this is right, the question now is

- do I get CWA points?
- do I get a deeded property and convert to points?

I think this is where I am a bit confused. I thought Wyndham are just points (like DVC) - so this whole CWA confuses me.

- if I go with a deeded resale. Do I go with the property with cheapest MF non-coastal property? Or do I buy at Glacier Canyon which I think we will visit every year?

I checked the MF spreadsheet and the MF for CWA is 4.89 (I'm guessing this is per 1K) and GC is 5.65.

I read that purchase price for CWA points is more than a deeded property.

I would not assume the point level you specified would only get you a couple of short stays. I just spot checked Smokey Mountain Tennessee and you can get the following in January:

01/18/2013 7 nights 1 Bedroom Deluxe 66,000

Westwinds in Myrtle Beach would be:

01/18/2013 7 nights 2 Bedroom Deluxe 77,000

Added together that would be 143,000 points plus change to your desired number.

Wyndham Worldwide ownes Wyndham Vacation Resorts, RCI, and a whole bunch of other timeshare systems. Wyndham Club Wyndham Access, Wyndham Club Wyndham Plus, and Worldmark the Club are all seperate trusts that are managed by Wyndham Vacation Ownership/Wyndham Vacation Resorts. It is my understanding Disney Timeshares are now available through RCI.

Wyndham Club Access and Worldmark the Club are points based systems where the trust owns the deeds and the home resorts for Club Wyndham Access are those resorts Club Wyndham Access controls some timeshares up to the number they control. Not sure on Worldmark the Club home resort system. I do not think they have one as such.

You forgot to add in the program fee for Club Wyndham Access, it is closer to $5.40 per thousand points.

Deeded units in Club Wyndham Plus are converted fixed weeks and points given to an underlying ownership interest in a serise of units.

slum808 · Jan 4, 2013

You are correct, Last call is not available to DVC owners.

Myxdvz · Jan 4, 2013

lcml11 said:
I would not assume the point level you specified would only get you a couple of short stays. I just spot checked Smokey Mountain Tennessee and you can get the following in January:

01/18/2013 7 nights 1 Bedroom Deluxe 66,000

Westwinds in Myrtle Beach would be:

01/18/2013 7 nights 2 Bedroom Deluxe 77,000

Added together that would be 143,000 points plus change to your desired number.

More to follow:

I know that if I use off season I could stretch my points. My assumption in picking 164K was for 1 week stay in a 2BR at Glacier Canyon. 2 ressies for short stays (3-5 days) on places within driving distance on high/peak season. It will definitely be more for off season (and we intend to do that!). The point above I think is that anything above 2 I will have to pay extra transaction points since I'm over my allocation, but $30 is not that bad in the grand scheme of things

Not sure if my husband will drive from Chicago to TN in the middle of winter though!

I can't convince him to drive to FL for our Thanksgiving trip...

ronparise · Jan 4, 2013

It would take something of a history lesson to explain the various kinds of points in the Wyndham system and how they came to be...UDI, Converted Fixed weeks and Club Wyndham Access. I think its enough to say here, that except for Advanced Reservation Priority the points are the currency you use to make reservations, and at the 10 month window, they all work the same.

Most Wyndham points come to you by virtue of a deeded interest in a particular resort. CWa is different. as you suggest its much like Worldmark in that there is no deed. You "own" a piece of all the resorts that are part of CWA. Actually you are a member of a Club that owns a piece of a lot of resorts

But remember in terms of their use all the points spend the same. I have a ton of points listed in the points summary in my Wyndham account and I cant see which ones are from which resort. Just like the dollars in my bank account, I cant tell which dollars came from my social security deposit, and which came from the rental of one of my timeshares and which from the commission on the last house I sold. And when I use my debit card at the grocery store, it doesnt matter..dollars are dollars...and in my Wyndham account points are points

Where there is a difference in points is the maintenance fees charged at the underlying resort(s). CWA is a blended average of all the resorts in the Club. (last year about $5.42/1000 points) National Harbor points are at under $4/1000, La Belle Maison is right at $5. and New Bern NC is over $6/1000. So what you buy is important. Generally speaking the lower the mf, the more you will have to pay to buy. You can view the "sold" sales on ebay to get an idea. As for me, I prefer to bid on the auctions where the mf is between $5 and $5.50/1000 points. The ones under $5 are too expensive to buy, and the ones over $5.50 are too expensive to carry.

I only mentioned the exchange companies because you seemed interested in cash only options. Last Call would satisfy that interest

rhonda · Jan 4, 2013

Myxdvz said:
What I don't like about Worldmark
- Aside from Galena and Branson - no other resorts fit our travel pattern (driving distance)
- my understanding is that there is a 7 night requirement when booking in RED season? Although people get around that by linking other reservations elsewhere. Not sure I get this quite yet. But I don't like this "restriction" since we're looking into using this for shorter stays. OTOH, maybe we can avoid booking red season.

re: Locations
How about WM Lake of the Ozarks or Grand Lake?

re: Red Season, must book 7 nights, if available, when booking a reservation more than 90-days out.
Note that the current rule on booking Red Season is about to change from a "90-day" window to 9-months. Even with the existing 90-day window, it was easy to book short stays looking for "only space available" (OSA) inventory or using throw-away nights, if needed. We just came back from 4 nights over New Years at WM Indio in the 4BR Presidential unit ... booked last January. The reservation was certainly Red Season -- but I grabbed the 4 nights as "OSA."

Myxdvz · Jan 4, 2013

Thank you so much for everyone who has responded. It has really helped me!

Maybe I should do it like Ron and buy both

For now, Wyndham makes more sense and if we find we need more points after DVC and Wyndham , we'll add WM

Sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread but I hope this has helped him/her too!

Now time to find a good resale property. I am working with a broker but I'd look at Ebay too.

Ron2 · Jan 4, 2013

You could also check the TUG Marketplace where you can find some great deals on Wyndham resorts and cut out the broker's fees and avoid the uncertainty of ebay. As its been stated, it doesn't matter which resort you choose if all you want are points to make reservations at various Wyndham resorts. That is unless some day you decide to reserve at lets say Myrtle Beach. Prime season reservations there go fast and ARP gets you in ahead of non-Myrtle Beach Wyndham owners.

bnoble · Jan 5, 2013

I think you have overstated the junk fee problem with Wyndham.

You've come to a resolution, but I wanted to chime in on this---I agree with Ron. I think I've paid one "extra" transaction fee, total, over the past five or six years. With just a little bit of planning you can avoid almost all of them in the common case. The big exception is if you plan on hosting family and friends in other units often.

I think the reason why I don't look at the Exchange companies is that I see them as a nice bonus,

IMO this is wise.

ronparise · Jan 5, 2013

Myxdvz said:
I know that if I use off season I could stretch my points. My assumption in picking 164K was for 1 week stay in a 2BR at Glacier Canyon. 2 ressies for short stays (3-5 days) on places within driving distance on high/peak season. It will definitely be more for off season (and we intend to do that!). The point above I think is that anything above 2 I will have to pay extra transaction points since I'm over my allocation, but $30 is not that bad in the grand scheme of things

Not sure if my husband will drive from Chicago to TN in the middle of winter though! I can't convince him to drive to FL for our Thanksgiving trip...

Remember that you can make several reservations in one day (7 am-11:45 pm) with one transaction credit so with a little advance planning 2 transaction credits can work for you

herindoors911 · Jan 5, 2013

wrong thread

herindoors911 · Jan 5, 2013

Although your "resort" is mentioned, your credits do not belong to that resort. If you bought on Ebay, a resort "needs" to be mentioned, but Worldmark credits are not assigned to any particular resort, thus no deed needed. Best to view your Worldmark Credits as shares in Worldmark. To begin with also, remember that Wyndham is your "management/developer". They do not own the resorts -- Worldmark the Club does.

The price sounds good... was it for a 6k account? There is a rough formula for working out the value, i.e. how many credits are available to use, borrow, HK tokens, etc.

Make sure you hang around wmowners.com -- any questions you have will be answered by a group of folks who care very much about Worldmark. Any news rules, tips, tricks of usage will be there first.

ie A fire at Anaheim resort recently...

Marcia3641 · Jan 6, 2013

herindoors911 said:
The price sounds good... was it for a 6k account? There is a rough formula for working out the value, i.e. how many credits are available to use, borrow, HK tokens, etc. (

Where would I find this rought formula as I am also looking at purchasing WM credits.

Marcia

ronparise · Jan 6, 2013

Marcia3641 said:
Where would I find this rought formula as I am also looking at purchasing WM credits.

Marcia

There is a base amount per account and then a per credit charge

heres a table showing the 2012 fees (things are going up by about 4% in 2103)

http://www.wmtsinfo.com/item/81

BocaBum99 · Jan 6, 2013

ronparise said:
There is a base amount per account and then a per credit charge

heres a table showing the 2012 fees (things are going up by about 4% in 2103)

http://www.wmtsinfo.com/item/81

I'll be about 140 years old in 2103. I don't really care if maintenance fees go up by more than 4% that year. LOL.

Worldmark or Wyndham points?

RX8

slabeaume

slabeaume

LLW

Myxdvz

lcml11

Myxdvz

lcml11

Myxdvz

ronparise

Myxdvz

lcml11

slum808

Myxdvz

ronparise

rhonda

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

Myxdvz

Ron2

bnoble

ronparise

herindoors911

herindoors911

Marcia3641

TUG Review Crew: Veteran

ronparise

BocaBum99