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Westin St John [Master Thread] - Part 2 (June 2014 and forward)

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letsgomets

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I don't understand the talk of bankruptcy and the villas being worthless. I just found the 2017 budget for BV and there's are interest charges of nearly $200,000. I don't know any details about the insurance policy, limits, deductible, etc., but it seems to me that when you combine BV, CV, VG and Sunset, that's a lot of insurance premiums and thus presumably a huge amount of insurance coverage. Sure we can expect assessments to cover the deductible (although an assessment of just one year's maintenance would yield more than $5 million for BV alone and I doubt the deductible is anywhere near that) but it seems like talk of total loss, worthless units, etc. must be very exaggerated.

It may take time, but the Westin will be back. I think we need to just hope for a speedy recovery for the island and the resort, not because we are eager to go back (we are!), but for the St. John and St. Thomas residents whose lives depend on it.
 

SMHarman

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I don't understand the talk of bankruptcy and the villas being worthless. I just found the 2017 budget for BV and there's are interest charges of nearly $200,000. I don't know any details about the insurance policy, limits, deductible, etc., but it seems to me that when you combine BV, CV, VG and Sunset, that's a lot of insurance premiums and thus presumably a huge amount of insurance coverage. Sure we can expect assessments to cover the deductible (although an assessment of just one year's maintenance would yield more than $5 million for BV alone and I doubt the deductible is anywhere near that) but it seems like talk of total loss, worthless units, etc. must be very exaggerated.

It may take time, but the Westin will be back. I think we need to just hope for a speedy recovery for the island and the resort, not because we are eager to go back (we are!), but for the St. John and St. Thomas residents whose lives depend on it.
Well hillside was working to build up a deductible fund. Had not made it there yet.

The question becomes is this a 1/100 year or more frequent and what does that do to ongoing insurance and building plans.
 

letsgomets

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The question becomes is this a 1/100 year or more frequent and what does that do to ongoing insurance and building plans.

Yes, I would expect that insurance rates will rise significantly, but at about 3% of our current maintenance, it could triple and be barely noticeable.
 

okwiater

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I don't understand the talk of bankruptcy and the villas being worthless. I just found the 2017 budget for BV and there's are interest charges of nearly $200,000. I don't know any details about the insurance policy, limits, deductible, etc., but it seems to me that when you combine BV, CV, VG and Sunset, that's a lot of insurance premiums and thus presumably a huge amount of insurance coverage. Sure we can expect assessments to cover the deductible (although an assessment of just one year's maintenance would yield more than $5 million for BV alone and I doubt the deductible is anywhere near that) but it seems like talk of total loss, worthless units, etc. must be very exaggerated.

It may take time, but the Westin will be back. I think we need to just hope for a speedy recovery for the island and the resort, not because we are eager to go back (we are!), but for the St. John and St. Thomas residents whose lives depend on it.

Completely agree with this. I don't think prime beachfront Caribbean resort property becomes worthless simply because it was struck by a hurricane. It seems likely that there will be some real estate fire sales in the near future, though, due to overreactions like these.
 

tomandrobin

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That is a lot of water washing over the deck of the boat. I would call that sunk in shallow water. I am sure the engines don't like being submerged like that.
 

SMHarman

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Engines, electrical, HVAC, fixtures and fittings. That's a hull ready for a full refit, or scrap depending on cost delta of a new build hull in a yard vs custom refit everything.

Sandy did this to a colleague if mines boat. It was loss adjusted as a total loss
 

vistana101

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A few more pictures after Maria:
upload_2017-9-21_17-40-45.png

upload_2017-9-21_17-41-3.png

upload_2017-9-21_17-41-48.png
 

Helios

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Wow, I guess I won't be occupying my SB villa in 2018...Any thoughts about when VGV HOA will comment on phase status?
 

cubigbird

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I have a SB Plat+ villa as well. Looks like we won’t be staying there either. Looks like the roof corner structures needs major repairs but the buildings look to be intact otherwise.

I agree it would be nice to get some owner updates here. I’m sure insurance adjusters have already been onsite.
 

SMHarman

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I have a SB Plat+ villa as well. Looks like we won’t be staying there either. Looks like the roof corner structures needs major repairs but the buildings look to be intact otherwise.

I agree it would be nice to get some owner updates here. I’m sure insurance adjusters have already been onsite.
Insurance adjustors? What they flew into STX and took a boat over between hurricanes? Not sure they have been there yet myself.
 

DavidnRobin

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They are still in rescue and recovery mode.

While walls (masonry) and roofs to some degree were spared. The flooding inside the villas were extensive based on videos and reports (the heavy rain comes in sideways and goes under and up roof vanes). The interiors will need massive overhaul (not to mention mold removal).

STT is still closed to commercial flights - 2 car barges that bring heavy equipment and construction materials are heavily damaged (by H.Maria)

It is going to be a while...


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Helios

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Insurance adjustors? What they flew into STX and took a boat over between hurricanes? Not sure they have been there yet myself.
That would be my guess as well. I wonder how much pull Vistana has to expedite things. They are probably not at the top of the list given the amount of damage. But, they are a corporate client, so, who knows...
 

Helios

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I have a SB Plat+ villa as well. Looks like we won’t be staying there either. Looks like the roof corner structures needs major repairs but the buildings look to be intact otherwise.

I agree it would be nice to get some owner updates here. I’m sure insurance adjusters have already been onsite.
Did you mean Diamond Season?
 

Helios

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They are still in rescue and recovery mode.

While walls (masonry) and roofs to some degree were spared. The flooding inside the villas were extensive based on videos and reports (the heavy rain comes in sideways and goes under and up roof vanes). The interiors will need massive overhaul (not to mention mold removal).

STT is still closed to commercial flights - 2 car barges that bring heavy equipment and construction materials are heavily damaged (by H.Maria)

It is going to be a while...


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I agree. Probably time to cancel the Easter week resie at SB...good thing I procrastinated on getting plane tixs this time.
 

Helios

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Just went to cancel my SB Easter resie and saw a new message, very disturbing...the entire calendar for a year is blocked and there is a red text message that says "Property is currently not accepting reservations".:(
 

cubigbird

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DavidnRobin

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I agree. Probably time to cancel the Easter week resie at SB...good thing I procrastinated on getting plane tixs this time.

I procrastinated as well - usually I try to get at 330 day mark.
Turns out that was fortunate.

IMO - I wouldn’t got to STJ unless I wanted to contribute to the clean-up efforts which is going to take years.
We will not be going in 2018 and will hopefully use our SOs (2x 95.7K) for HI - not an awful $/SO value, assuming the 2018 MFs stay the same (large assumption). The Plat+ VGV have a good SO value. Low season Owners the worst. They will be 1st to bail - IMO


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LisaRex

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I don't understand the talk of bankruptcy and the villas being worthless.

First and foremost, owners at any given resort usually do not own the property their building sits on. They own the right to use their unit one week per year. The land is owned by another entity, often a land holding company related to the original developer.

Secondly, even the best insurance policy has a co-pay and costs that aren't covered. I doubt any policy covers a year of lost revenue, for instance. No matter what, future premiums will be significantly higher. Utilities will increase, too, as they must recoup the cost of repairs from a very limited customer base. This tragedy will inevitably mean higher MFs and/or an SA, at least in the short term.

Any time you raise MFs significantly, you risk losing paying owners. WSJ is especially vulnerable, due to many factors:
  • Distinct seasons. In resort with distinct low seasons, those owners are always more vulnerable for defaulting because they are often paying close (or exceeding) comparable rental rates already. By law, HOAs cannot assess different MFs based on seasons, so if MFs exceed inflation, who in their right mind would pay $500 to $1000 MORE than current rental rates?
  • Disgruntled owners: Low season owners were already hit once because nearly the entire 2017 low-season was wrecked by Irma. With no remedy forthcoming for this year's loss, how likely will these same owners be to pay that next invoice?
  • Voluntary resort: Most of WSJ is voluntary, and most of the new phases have been around long enough that there's already going to be a decent number of resale owners. With depositing their week in II being their only possible remedy (and maybe not even that because they technically don't have a week to deposit), resale voluntary owners are at an even higher risk than mandatory week owners.
  • The island is in shambles: Some owners will see the damage to the island and decide not to return to a place that resembles a war zone :(
  • Immensity of the storm: Because of the sheer amount of damage, it'll take months before utilities are up and running. They can't even begin cleaning up without fresh water, nor can they start to rebuild without electricity. Every day that the resort is closed means lost revenue.
  • Downtime: What percentage of owners are going to pay 2018 MFs (and possible SA) knowing that there's a decent possibility that the resort will be out of commission the entire year?
  • Lack of new owners: In a healthy economy, a resort like WSJ could easily find new owners to replace "deadbeat" owners. The Caribbean is far from healthy. Finding new owners quickly is imperative for the survival of all timeshares, because otherwise you risk starting a vicious cycle of higher MFs yielding more defaults yielding higher MFs yielding more defaults.
Of course, more data is needed before anyone must make a decision on what to do. However, the obstacles for WSJ are enormous. That is why some people are opining that this storm might have staked WSJ right through the heart. Even though it's not running and generating much needed revenue, bills still need to be paid, such as key staff salaries, management fees (I think they owe Starwood $1M per year just for naming rights!), utilities (once they are up and running), insurance premiums, property taxes, and, of course, clean up and repair costs that aren't covered by insurance. Who's going to pay for all of that?

It's like the perfect storm has hit WSJ. :(
 

lizap

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Completely agree with this. I don't think prime beachfront Caribbean resort property becomes worthless simply because it was struck by a hurricane. It seems likely that there will be some real estate fire sales in the near future, though, due to overreactions like these.


It will be back, provided it doesn't get hit again in the next year or two. But tourism will definitely take a hit. Most people go to St. John for rest, relaxation, beautiful scenery, etc...
First and foremost, owners at any given resort usually do not own the property their building sits on. They own the right to use their unit one week per year. The land is owned by another entity, often a land holding company related to the original developer.

Secondly, even the best insurance policy has a co-pay and costs that aren't covered. I doubt any policy covers a year of lost revenue, for instance. No matter what, future premiums will be significantly higher. Utilities will increase, too, as they must recoup the cost of repairs from a very limited customer base. This tragedy will inevitably mean higher MFs and/or an SA, at least in the short term.

Any time you raise MFs significantly, you risk losing paying owners. WSJ is especially vulnerable, due to many factors:
  • Distinct seasons. In resort with distinct low seasons, those owners are always more vulnerable for defaulting because they are often paying close (or exceeding) comparable rental rates already. By law, HOAs cannot assess different MFs based on seasons, so if MFs exceed inflation, who in their right mind would pay $500 to $1000 MORE than current rental rates?
  • Disgruntled owners: Low season owners were already hit once because nearly the entire 2017 low-season was wrecked by Irma. With no remedy forthcoming for this year's loss, how likely will these same owners be to pay that next invoice?
  • Voluntary resort: Most of WSJ is voluntary, and most of the new phases have been around long enough that there's already going to be a decent number of resale owners. With depositing their week in II being their only possible remedy (and maybe not even that because they technically don't have a week to deposit), resale voluntary owners are at an even higher risk than mandatory week owners.
  • The island is in shambles: Some owners will see the damage to the island and decide not to return to a place that resembles a war zone :(
  • Immensity of the storm: Because of the sheer amount of damage, it'll take months before utilities are up and running. They can't even begin cleaning up without fresh water, nor can they start to rebuild without electricity. Every day that the resort is closed means lost revenue.
  • Downtime: What percentage of owners are going to pay 2018 MFs (and possible SA) knowing that there's a decent possibility that the resort will be out of commission the entire year?
  • Lack of new owners: In a healthy economy, a resort like WSJ could easily find new owners to replace "deadbeat" owners. The Caribbean is far from healthy. Finding new owners quickly is imperative for the survival of all timeshares, because otherwise you risk starting a vicious cycle of higher MFs yielding more defaults yielding higher MFs yielding more defaults.
Of course, more data is needed before anyone must make a decision on what to do. However, the obstacles for WSJ are enormous. That is why some people are opining that this storm might have staked WSJ right through the heart. Even though it's not running and generating much needed revenue, bills still need to be paid, such as key staff salaries, management fees (I think they owe Starwood $1M per year just for naming rights!), utilities (once they are up and running), insurance premiums, property taxes, and, of course, clean up and repair costs that aren't covered by insurance. Who's going to pay for all of that?

It's like the perfect storm has hit WSJ. :(

Lisa, unfortunately, I think your assessment is pretty accurate..
 

tomandrobin

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I procrastinated as well - usually I try to get at 330 day mark.
Turns out that was fortunate.

IMO - I wouldn’t got to STJ unless I wanted to contribute to the clean-up efforts which is going to take years.
We will not be going in 2018 and will hopefully use our SOs (2x 95.7K) for HI - not an awful $/SO value, assuming the 2018 MFs stay the same (large assumption). The Plat+ VGV have a good SO value. Low season Owners the worst. They will be 1st to bail - IMO

Ha.....We also procrastinated buying our airfare for WSJ in 2018. We usually buy our airfare when the boooking window opens.

We still have not canceled our July 2018 trip. My heart really wants to go, but my head keeps telling me to move on for next year and come back in 2020. Plus, we need to coordinate with three other owners on whether we should go or not go. I know the Westin Manager has said they plan on being open in March, but I just don't see how or if it is, what exactly will be open at the resort.

Puerto Rico and St Croix were major stepping blocks in the recovery process. After Maria, they now need help......so where does St John get their help from?
 

okwiater

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I am told the damage at WSJ exceeds $100MM. Not to worry, though: for all you WSJ naysayers, Vistana direct sales is taking them back as trades as of yesterday.

Also, I can guarantee there are a bunch of investors salivating at the thought of Caneel Bay or other prime properties deciding not to rebuild. Buy low, sell high...
 
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