TUG MEMBERS: Joining TUG does not automatically register you as a user of the TUG Bulletin Board. You must register yourself.


*ads are disabled when logged in*
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 23 years! Join the tens of thousands of other owners here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered!
  3. Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free! Join tens of thousands of other owners who get this every week! Latest resort reviews and the most important topics discussed by owners during the week!
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Follow the TUG Member Banner as it travels the world on vacation with Timeshare owners! Also sign up to get the banner sent to you so you can submit a photo of your vacation with the banner to share with TUG! Banner Thread
    Dismiss Notice
  5. A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!
    Dismiss Notice
  6. For any of you worried about seeing the "connection not secure" message in your web browser when visiting TUG, rest assured that TUG is no more or less secure than it always has been! read more details here in this thread
    Dismiss Notice

Trying to rescind. Is Saturday a business day?? Please advise.

Discussion in 'Buying, Selling, Renting' started by ravenna, Apr 21, 2017.

  1. ravenna

    ravenna Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2017
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Resorts Owned:
    elara - las vegas - HGVC
    Hello everyone.

    I am in the process of trying to rescind or escape a new purchase. (HGVC; bought straight from Hilton because I am a fool.) I have already learned a lot and, for the benefit of other newbies, I will post on ongoing thread about my experiences to see if it helps anyone.

    What I've learned thus far:

    1. When a rescission period states you have X business days to rescind your purchase, this may include Saturday as a business day. (It's currently unclear to me. Under the Truth in Lending Act, which apparently governs a federally-mandated three-business-day rescission right, Saturday is a business day.) IOW, if you want to rescind, move fast!

    2. The Orlando-based company "Timeshare Answers" seems very shady.

    3. I am speaking to the Finn Law Group (they appear to be legit lawyers with a specialization in timeshares.) I will update you all on what they promise and what they cost.

    4. Timeshare salespeople are very good at establishing rapport, talking fast, getting you to imagine the great new vacation-filled life that awaits you. They are also very sleazy and will say anything to earn their commission. THEY ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND. Seriously... I don't know how I got sucked into buying a thing I never wanted.

    Details of my situation: I heard the spiel in Vegas and bought 7000 points worth of the Elara, from Hilton GVC. I was not told of the rescission rule. I signed papers the closer purposely obscured from my view while pointing to the line for my signature and rushing along saying, "This is just a financial disclosure statement... this one just satisfies a Nevada state law about lender regulations... this is nothing important..." etc.

    Nevada state law gives me five calendar days to rescind.

    Oddly, however, the document I signed states that I have five BUSINESS days to rescind.
    I signed on a Wednesday. I sent in my letter of rescission on a Wednesday. This is within the five-business-day window.

    I mailed my certified letter on March 22. I have heard nothing back. The person I addressed my letter of rescission to is not answering my phone calls.

    If Saturday is a business day for the purpose of rescission, then I was one day late in mailing it in. However, the document did not state that Saturday is a business day. (I am just worried that it is, because this is the rule that TILA uses.)

    I stopped payment from American Express, explaining that I have rescinded the Hilton purchase. They canceled my charge of ten percent down (5300 dollars). However, AmEx says they reserve the right to reinstate it by August if Hilton convinces them to do so.

    I just saw my own local lawyer. We have decided to sit tight while she investigates whether Hilton is going to honor the rescission letter. (Thirty days have passed since I sent it, and no word from Hilton. I have no idea if they plan to let me rescind or not.)

    Our backup plan, if Hilton claims Saturday is a business day and thus fails to let me out of the contract, is to offer them the 5300 dollar downpayment in exchange for letting me off the hook.

    Another potential backup plan is for me to go to court saying, "How is a layperson like me supposed to know that Saturday is a business day? This is deceitful. And deceitful sales are illegal under NV statute 119A, which governs timeshare law. Also, under TILA and Regulation Z, any deceit or failure to disclose stuff, automatically extends the TILA mandated rescission period from three business days to three years."

    (Note: I am not actually sure TILA applies to me. Does anyone know?)

    A third potential backup plan is for me to go with Finn Law Group, which is Florida-based. If they think I have a strong case, and if they are honest, they should take my case with minimal money upfront, as long as I promise them a percentage of recovered money.

    ******

    Any feedback from experienced people here is welcome.

    I will keep you all updated as the thing proceeds.

    Oh - and don't get me started on Timeshare Answers.... lots of red flags, but the guy on the phone sounded very calm and reasonable until I wriggled off his hook by claiming I had changed my mind and planned to keep the timeshare. Then his tone changed completely; he became angry and abusive and basically started shouting that I was an idiot. Then he slammed down the phone in rage!
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  2. tschwa2

    tschwa2 TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2008
    Messages:
    8,681
    Likes Received:
    217
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Maryland
    Resorts Owned:
    A few in SC, VA and FL, a single resort in NC, MD, PA, NY, UT, ME, WI, and TN plus Jamaica and the Bahamas
    I think if the company is open for business, then it is a business day. In that case business days are calendar days. I believe if the 5th day is Sunday and the post office isn't open than they give you until the Monday. If Sunday is in the middle of the period than you get no additional days.
     
  3. geist1223

    geist1223 Guest

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Salem Oregon
    It most likely depends on the State Laws that government the Contract. I do know from a rescind we did in Mexico with Grand Mayan that Saturday is a Business Day but Sunday is not.
     
  4. WalnutBaron

    WalnutBaron TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    394
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Northern California
    Resorts Owned:
    Hyatt Highlands Inn, Hyatt Pinon Pointe, HGVCx2
    IMO, I'm afraid you missed the deadline. Here's the math: the timeshare company typically counts the day you sign the contract as Day 1--meaning that even if they do not count Saturday or Sunday as "business days", your rescission period expired on the Tuesday after you signed the deal. Regardless, I think you've done the right thing by hiring an attorney to pursue this and see where things stand.

    I do have one other suggestion which--though incurring an additional expense--might be worthwhile: consider traveling to HGVC's headquarters in Orlando and asking directly for the person to whom you addressed your rescission letter. It is a gamble, for sure--but it is much more difficult for someone to not respond when they know you're waiting for them in the lobby than to blow off your voicemail messages. I have done this many times in business dealings and have always found the tactic effective.
     
  5. TUGBrian

    TUGBrian Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    15,269
    Likes Received:
    492
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Florida
    hope you get lucky and they accept your rescission!
     
  6. ravenna

    ravenna Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2017
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Resorts Owned:
    elara - las vegas - HGVC
    @Walnut,
    Thanks for the advice. I do not think you are correct about the date of signing being Day One. I think it is legally Day Zero. Though I may be wrong (input, anyone?)

    As for the advice of going to Orlando and facing the person: interesting idea. But my assumption at this point is that she is a minor functionary with no power, who is under strict orders from her bosses: answer no phone calls; process the rescission paperwork only if it is letter-perfect, otherwise ignore it. And if any dissatisfied customer walks in, just say, "I'm sorry ma'am, that's over my pay grade. I can't help you."

    I do have a fantasy of talking to her sub rosa and saying, "Hey lady - process my paperwork and I'll give you a thousand bucks off the books." Is that what you are suggesting?
     
  7. TUGBrian

    TUGBrian Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    15,269
    Likes Received:
    492
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Florida
    I thought above you said you were in vegas when you bought the timeshare, but in the last post you mention going to orlando?
     
  8. WalnutBaron

    WalnutBaron TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    394
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Northern California
    Resorts Owned:
    Hyatt Highlands Inn, Hyatt Pinon Pointe, HGVCx2
    No, because I don't think that would work--unless she wanted to risk getting fired. And even if she is a powerless underling, by actually being there in person, you might be surprised what you can accomplish. It's just really difficult for someone to say no to you face to face, especially if you show up fully prepared, with all of your documents in hand, displaying outward respect but also a firm resolve to get the outcome you're looking for. As I said, it's no guarantee of a successful outcome--but you will most definitely move your case to the "top of the pile", so to speak--and it will be impossible for her or her supervisors to ignore you. By the way, if the receptionist tells you that no one can see you at the moment, you simply reply, "I'll be happy to wait--for the rest of the day, if necessary." Polite but firm is the right approach.
     
  9. ravenna

    ravenna Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2017
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Resorts Owned:
    elara - las vegas - HGVC
    @brian

    Yes, I bought in Vegas. That's where the Elara is. According to my lawyer, this means that Nevada law applies to my purchase.

    Walnut (above) suggested I should go to the person I mailed my recission letter to. This person is in Orlando, which is apparently the headquarters of HGCV.
     
  10. TUGBrian

    TUGBrian Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    15,269
    Likes Received:
    492
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Florida
    ah ok...just making sure as nevada and florida have two different rescission periods..was hoping youd have more luck if you did actually buy in florida as its a much longer period!
     
  11. Iggyearl

    Iggyearl TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Ballston Lake, NY
    http://www.justanswer.com/real-estate-law/1d3ji-bought-timeshare-las-vegas-nevada-bought.html

    The above link shows some legal advice given regarding a Las Vegas timeshare purchase by someone in similar shoes. It appears that the Nevada law describes 5 "calendar" days. Not a very long time. This may be the reason that your HVGC contact does not want to acknowledge your calls.

    The other thing to consider is that Hilton does not have a reputation of being a "tough" or "mean" company. They might cut you some slack and process the rescission as if you were on time. However, even if you were inside the legal envelope, they have no obligation to converse with you - just process the refund within the legally required period. (Not sure, but I think it is 45 days.)

    If this situation goes further (no resolution), the Finn Law Group may be a good contact. Michael Finn has written a number of articles that are pro-consumer that he has published on "Inside the Gate" (a pro-timeshare site for sales people) and his own website. Finn would like to see the industry solve some of it's own problems, and he has instituted a number of class action lawsuits. He is a "good guy." Cost? You would have to ask.

    One avenue that I would consider if I was in your shoes: Never being told about the rescission period. The salesman is supposed to tell you about that and I believe you are supposed to sign a form saying you were notified. If you did sign such a form and did not know about it - then they have got you over a barrel. A good question for Mr. Finn....
     
  12. gmarine

    gmarine Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,300
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    38
  13. scootr5

    scootr5 Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
    Messages:
    2,714
    Likes Received:
    127
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Montgomery, IL
    Resorts Owned:
    Quarter House, Wyndham Avenue Plaza - Mardis Gras week, Wyndham points
  14. tschwa2

    tschwa2 TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2008
    Messages:
    8,681
    Likes Received:
    217
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Maryland
    Resorts Owned:
    A few in SC, VA and FL, a single resort in NC, MD, PA, NY, UT, ME, WI, and TN plus Jamaica and the Bahamas
    Nevada is 5 calendar days but the contract the OP signed specifically said 5 business days. A quick web search revealed that per Nevada law circa 2013 a business day is everyday but Sunday and a handful of holidays. Unless they changed the legal definition after that date the OP would still be out of luck as they rescinded in 6 business days not 5 (and 7 calendar days).
     
  15. gmarine

    gmarine Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,300
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I would think the contract is what counts but it looks like either way the OP was past the rescission period.
     
  16. maddog497

    maddog497 Guest

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2011
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    28
    How did you make the down payment? Someone posted on another thread that Visa has its own "cooling off" period of 14 days. I have no idea if that is correct, but it may be worth looking into. Good luck.

    Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk
     
    BagsArePacked likes this.
  17. Saintsfanfl

    Saintsfanfl TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    151
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Central Florida
    The OP wrote that they used Amex but this is very interesting information. It does appear that Visa has a 14 day policy for timeshare purchases.
     
  18. maddog497

    maddog497 Guest

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2011
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I missed that. Might be worth checking with Amex.

    Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk
     
  19. ravenna

    ravenna Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2017
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Resorts Owned:
    elara - las vegas - HGVC
    First, I want to thank all of you for your advice and comments. This is a really great site. And I hope all new buyers, or prospective buyers, learn from my mistakes! I
    really never thought I'd be in this silly situation.

    @Iggyearl: I have gleaned some interesting tidbits about the Finn Law Group and have questions about them. Rather than encumber this thread with what I've learned, I will start a new one about them in just a minute...

    @maddog: I paid with AmEx. (The Hilton people got me to open an AmEx card because I would earn "Hilton Honors Points" for paying with it. For all I know, that was a scam to keep me from using Visa!)

    I agree with the majority of you that I missed the rescission deadline and am probably SOL. Saturday IS a business day in NV. And further netsurfing reveals that under NV law, Hilton was obligated to rescind my money within fifteen days. This has long since passed.

    However, I still have the following hope:

    The 'right of rescission' letter they gave me does specify 'five business days.' This is different from state law of 'five calendar days'. They did not verbally review the rescission right with me - in fact they hid the writing by putting stuff on top of it, while I signed the signature line they pointed to at the bottom. Nowhere on the document does it say that Saturday is a business day. When I got home I made the reasonable layperson's assumption that Sat/Sun are NOT business days (since in normal speech, a business day is Monday - Friday, is it not??) and that I had until Wednesday to rescind.

    Therefore I assumed I had more time to cancel, than I actually did have. Thus, the 'right of rescission' note that exists solely to protect the buyer, actually misled me into waiting too long and losing my ability to cancel.

    Note that NV has statutes forbidding "deceptive trade practices" in timeshare sales. NRS 498.0915 describes many "deceptive trade practices" including the following: "14. Fraudulently alters any contract, written statement of charges or other document in connection with the sale or lease of goods or services. 15. Knowingly makes any other false representation in a transaction." Since the contract's promise of 'five business days' is different from the NV law guaranteeing 'five calendar days' - and since the Hilton lawyers presumably did this on purpose to trip me up (knowingly made a false representation of NV rescission law in a transaction) - I may have a case for "deceptive trade practices." Or so I tell myself.

    I don't suppose any of you have ever taken on a timeshare company in court, and won??? :)
     
  20. TUGBrian

    TUGBrian Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    15,269
    Likes Received:
    492
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Florida
    I would suggest waiting to see what sort of decision HGVC makes before spending a fortune on an attorney....

    ive never quite heard of someone who had contacted not one but two separate attorneys before actually knowing the outcome of the rescission letter. I suppose its good to have your ducks in a row though.
     
  21. ravenna

    ravenna Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2017
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Resorts Owned:
    elara - las vegas - HGVC
    Haha, well I called the Finn people today just hoping for free phone advice - left message with receptionist but haven't heard back yet. Actually I am developing some suspicions about what it is they do...

    Naturally I met with my own lawyer today, to discuss my options and plan my next move.

    Quick question for you: I started another thread in this forum - somewhat related, but regarding my growing suspicion that I can get out of the contract simply by refusing to pay. This thread was deleted because (paraphrased from a message) "You already have a thread open". Can you explain the rule - is it "one new thread per day" ? I read the FAQs earlier but don't remember any thread restrictions other than "Don't post duplicates." Thanks, and sorry for breaking a rule.
     
  22. TUGBrian

    TUGBrian Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    15,269
    Likes Received:
    492
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Florida
    you already have an existing thread that is active and started today on the subject, another one would be a duplicate and thus against the posting rules.

    I would certainly urge you to follow your own attorneys advice and wait to see what the response is from hilton (if any at all)...I believe you mentioned that amex refunded the charge to you and its been a month since the dispute was filed so technically they dont have anything to refund to you...perhaps you will catch a break on missing a day! fingers crossed for you!
     
  23. ravenna

    ravenna Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2017
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Resorts Owned:
    elara - las vegas - HGVC
    Ah thanks! And goodnight!
     
  24. WackyLucy

    WackyLucy Guest

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2016
    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Fwiw, I have personally met Mike Finn, whose law practice is in Largo, FL. He is a decent man and a competent, FL licensed attorney who greatly dislikes deceitful timeshare developer practices and who knows the shady timeshare industry inside out. ARDA is no fan of his and vice versa. You have absolutely no basis (or any knowledge) on which to have "suspicions about what it is that they do". They practice law, if that is unclear to you.

    That being said, if you failed to comply with the contract rescission deadline identified by applicable state law, neither Michael Finn nor anyone else is going to have any magic wand or elixir for you. Attorney Finn will surely convey that fact to you for himself if / when he returns your call.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  25. ravenna

    ravenna Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2017
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Resorts Owned:
    elara - las vegas - HGVC
    Another little fact is that NV is a nonjudicial foreclosure state. Which seems to mean that if they foreclose on me for nonpayment, the courts are not involved (I am not sued). I assume the benefit to the company is, nonjudicial foreclosures are cheap.

    More and more I am suspecting that if I just refuse to pay, all that ever happens is that I lose the property (boo hoo), take a hit to my credit rating, and possibly lose the initial ten percent down.

    And since HIlton would surely rather take it back and resell it for full price in the standard way, rather than go from foreclosure to auction as the law demands (where they will get next to nothing for it), it seems to me they will eagerly accept a deed in lieu of foreclosure.

    (I see a few timeshares being sold at auction in NV but these seem to have been acquired in bankruptcy proceedings.)

    So now I am wondering why people saddled with unwanted timeshares in nonjudicial states don't all just default and walk away. I would consider this immoral in most circumstances, with most loans, but the timeshare sales tactics I encountered were so dishonest that defaulting feels justified.
     

Share This Page