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The New Club Wyndham Website (General Discussion)

chapjim

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Wrong! What are you smoking to think ANYTHING is an improvement with the new website.



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You can smoke most anything in CO.
 

chapjim

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Be careful in what you say. I'm understanding from your post. That you specifically asked someone to commit fraud and be in breach of their fiduciary duties to the trust on your behalf. If a class action is filed. Should you and others be sued with Wyndham ?

Fraud? Fiduciary duties? Please look up the legal definition of fraud and explain how it relates to cancel-rebook.

Do you really think VCs are fiduciaries?
 

Braindead

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Fraud? Fiduciary duties? Please look up the legal definition of fraud and explain how it relates to cancel-rebook.

Do you really think VCs are fiduciaries?
Why ask me ?
Happyhopian posted he knowingly asked the VCs to do both for his benefit. That makes him and others just as guilty as WYN
Why come after me when somebody stated they knowingly asked VCs to commit those offenses against the rest of us ?
 

uscav8r

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Why ask me ?
Happyhopian posted he knowingly asked the VCs to do both for his benefit. That makes him and others just as guilty as WYN
Why come after me when somebody stated they knowingly asked VCs to commit those offenses against the rest of us ?

Your premise that these are even fraudulent "offenses" is flawed. These were allowable transactions under the old policies; they are STILL valid transactions under the new policies. They are just more difficult to accomplish under certain circumstances.

So if they remain valid, and no legal action has been taken by Wyndham or its owner-members, how can they be considered fraud now or then?


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Braindead

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Your premise that these are even fraudulent "offenses" is flawed. These were allowable transactions under the old policies; they are STILL valid transactions under the new policies. They are just more difficult to accomplish under certain circumstances.

So if they remain valid, and no legal action has been taken by Wyndham or its owner-members, how can they be considered fraud now or then?


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I just love how you guys gang up on me.
It was happyhopian that stated these offenses were committed against the rest of the other owners.

You guys need to look at your premises. If you do something illegal it was still illegal whether legal action is taken or not.
People commit fraud everyday. It's still fraud if no legal action is taken
 

chapjim

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Why ask me ?
Happyhopian posted he knowingly asked the VCs to do both for his benefit. That makes him and others just as guilty as WYN
Why come after me when somebody stated they knowingly asked VCs to commit those offenses against the rest of us ?

Oh! Sorry! I thought it was you that said cancel-rebook was a fraud and that VCs were breaching their fiduciary duties by assisting owners in doing it.
 

uscav8r

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I just love how you guys gang up on me.
It was happyhopian that stated these offenses were committed against the rest of the other owners.

You guys need to look at your premises. If you do something illegal it was still illegal whether legal action is taken or not.
People commit fraud everyday. It's still fraud if no legal action is taken
Whatever HH has said, you are the one who doubles down on it and repeats the fraud claim (a dubious one at that).

And for the record, regardless of what he said/she said, cancel/rebook was never illegal. Name the law(s) it violated. It was never even against policy (which carries an even less stringent burden of proof). In fact, the technique is still not prevented by the updated policy.

Also for the record, I have only used the technique once, and that was mostly due to having to reduce a 7-night stay to a 4-night stay inside the 30-day window. I never truly benefited from it, so no one can really say I am a biased offender.




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ronparise

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I just love how you guys gang up on me.
It was happyhopian that stated these offenses were committed against the rest of the other owners.

You guys need to look at your premises. If you do something illegal it was still illegal whether legal action is taken or not.
People commit fraud everyday. It's still fraud if no legal action is taken

Im having trouble with the word "fraud" and "against" >> To me its more of a missed opportunity thing than "fraud" committed "against" anyone. Of course I was always the one on the "doing it to you" side, rather than "the having it done to me" side of the equation

Whats the harm with a little cancel and rebook? I used to argue, none. The reservations I made were made 13 months in advance. and I made them with points i owned, They were high demand, low supply reservations that would offer me the chance to rent them at a profit. That profit didnt come out of the pockets of other owner and every other owner had the same chance of getting through on the phone to a VC to make those reservations. And when I cancelled and rebooked I ended up with same (not an additional) reservation. So as I see it, nothing was taken from any other owner. or Wyndham. "No Harm, No Foul" is what Id say.

However, There more to it than that. when I cancelled and rebooked "cancelled points" were generated. And heres the problem. I used those cancelled points to make more high demand, low supply reservations.

Everyone should have the same opportunity to get these high value reservations with their points. If I was using my cancelled points for anything other than the really high demand stuff, there would be no problem. but I didnt. The problem was that there was more competition than there should have been, and everyones chances were diminished.


Fraud? I dont think so. But its something
 

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1) Am clear in my understanding the loopholes are now closed.
2) Am clear in the understanding you made a lot money with those loopholes (and a number of others)
3) Am clear in my understanding your ride was much nicer for a lot less capital outlay than most VIP owners (as was mine)
4) Did not attempt to explore the "why" it was allowed. Only pointed to the fact that it WAS allowed, which is 8+ years of CHOICE by the decision makers.
5) Have zero expectations that things will change significantly going forward (including any acceleration in the improvements to the website).
6) Have NEVER made any suggestion of a lawsuit.
7) Was neither "bitching" or "moaning" about any of it. Was mearly trying to not reduce the perspectives of a plethera of VIP owners, all highly frustrated having now paid for what they can no longer obtain, to the over simplified statement of "they thought wrong."

If that runs up the back of your spine ..... :shrug: Read it again. Somewhere in most of that it says "I agree with you also" except for the repeating posture of suggesting to ALL owners they must now lower expectations, happily adapt or get out. Kinda what Wyndham's posture is also. Go figure.


Actually, you constantly accuse Wyndham of Fraud (with regards to cancel rebook) and have stated that they made this mess of a website on purpose to make more money (which is ridiculous) That would be bitching and moaning. Cancel rebook was a LOOPHOLE. as long as it existed Wyndham pushed it and even helped. The definition of loophole is an unintended hole. That hole has been closed. End of story. If people did not understand what a loophole is, then maybe they should research before they buy. It's like when the national speed limit went down to 55. people bought cars that could go faster than 55, car companies touted the top speeds of some models, but once the speed limit changed, you could no longer go over 55 on public roads. Even though the car companies new it was coming, they still touted the fact that there models could go faster. Things change, and as long as no law is broken, or contract term disregarded, we need to adapt. I took advantage of cancel rebook when I could, now it is gone. I still have what I made for.
 

55plus

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You can smoke most anything in CO.
That explains the few owners on TUG that are for Wyndham's dysfunctional piece of crap website. Or maybe a deal was reached between Wyndham and the few owners on TUG to become Wyndham's dysfunctional piece of crap website cheerleaders in exchange for unlocking their accounts or other perks? Anyone who supports the changes to the website is either on drugs or on the take with Wyndham. I see no other possibility.
 

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The BBS search engine is your friend. Using my username and the keyword "fraud" related to anything Wyndham specific, what are the subsequent results?

Click here for more help.

You accuse them of "intent" to mislead and imply that what they are doing is illegal or in violation of their fiduciary duties. That is fraud, even if you avoid the word. The fact that you are reverting to word games means you are using the same tactics you are complaining about. Yes I have a legal degree and yes I call bullshit when I see people (or salesman) playing word games. I am also in IT (over 25 years)and this is one of the worst website implementations I have ever seen. for this to be intentional is absurd.
 

55plus

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You accuse them of "intent" to mislead and imply that what they are doing is illegal or in violation of their fiduciary duties. That is fraud, even if you avoid the word. The fact that you are reverting to word games means you are using the same tactics you are complaining about. Yes I have a legal degree and yes I call bullshit when I see people (or salesman) playing word games. I am also in IT (over 25 years)and this is one of the worst website implementations I have ever seen. for this to be intentional is absurd.
I am not a lawyer nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I do have a background in IT and was a network administrator for a large school district. I have to agree with you on your statement, "this is one of the worst website implementations I have ever seen". However, the design to limit the website's main function, which is to search for availability and book a reservation, had to have been by design. A key search function was eliminated from the new website. So far from what I read in all the posts no one has a valid explanation of the positive aspect of the limits imposed on us by Wyndham. As I stated previously, why eliminate some features and degrade search functions on a new website unless it was by design? Does anyone have a legitimate answer? Perhaps to benefit Wyndham and Extra Holidays. . .?
 

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Of course I was always the one on the "doing it to you" side, rather than "the having it done to me" side of the equation

And heres the problem. I used those cancelled points to make more high demand, low supply reservations.

Everyone should have the same opportunity to get these high value reservations with their points. If I was using my cancelled points for anything other than the really high demand stuff, there would be no problem. but I didnt. The problem was that there was more competition than there should have been, and everyones chances were diminished.


Fraud? I dont think so. But its something
I'm not going to try and define the IT.
The IT was done to other owners. Not Wyndham. Wyndham allowed and helped you do the IT to the rest of the owners.
The changes implemented didn't change the amount of units.
But it definitely changed the competition.
I have always said if I was in your and other shoes. I would've done the IT also

The website couldn't be worse.
But I agree with Ron. Make the best of what we have for now. Hope it gets drastically better soon
 

ohdewer

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However, the design to limit the website's main function, which is to search for availability and book a reservation, had to have been by design. A key search function was eliminated from the new website.

As another IT professional for over 25 years, the database could remain the same, with the front and backends redesigned. This is what seems to be the issue. The frontend application to access the data has changed and maybe the backend used by the reservation staff has changed. This to me is where the design flaws occurred.
 

Sandy VDH

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The did indeed switch databases, which has contributed to the inventory issues, as the website is not fully loaded and obviously during the conversion the screwed the pooch somewhere.


The second issue is the website functionality itself. I can't believe it is by INTENTIONAL design to screw up the search function and make it impractical, I have to think they asked the wrong people what they wanted to see, and ignored what the previous site was able to do. This goes along with the design. It is like it was designed by some misinformed marketing people who don't actually search for inventory very often. This is the same website their VCs have to use to search, that is just ridiculous to think that they would intentionally force their VCs to search with that piece of crap. I have to believe this is a case of the left hand NOT knowing what the right is doing.

If it was collectively intentional (upper management, middle managment, project manager, BA and Developers), then wyndham as a whole is even more stupid that I could ever have imagined, and someone over there needs to pull their collective head out of the arse.
 

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You have to understand that COskier has been the active conscious for disdain of anything to do with megarenters and people who upgrade/cancel-rebook for years on here. I think he is so happy these folks are getting screwed he is willing to accept ANY collateral damage. That is how I read him because there is no way you can call this a positive direction much less an improvement unless you are him or 'new' Ron.

I recognized cancel/rebook as a scam when I first read about it in 2012. A few people caught on to the point at the time, and more since then. Some people will never see the light. I could not understand how Wyndham let it go on for so long, and I did not expect to see a time when they would do something to restrict or eliminate the shady practice.

A few Vacation Guides reportedly refused to participate in the scheme. I hope no one lost his or her job due to a matter of principle.

If the new Guidelines lay more owners’ heads and fewer renters’ heads in the resort beds, then that meets my definition of an improved system. If more owners, who paid to join the Club to vacation with their family, can reserve what they are looking for, instead of finding it only available on a rental site, how is that not a good thing for the Club?

Restricting cancel/rebook, as it appears the new reservation system may do, will lead to more accessibility to inventory for all owners. Reservations that were made with the ultimate goal of canceling and rebooking for a discount will be reduced, other reservations will no longer be profitable without the cancel/rebook discount, and that will leave them available for other owners to reserve.

If the inventory is not loading into the reservation system, then no one may book it, of course, but that is a horse of a different color.
 

CO skier

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1. Make reservation

2 cancel reservation in your discount window

3. Wait, wait, wait, then grab it!*


* disclaimer, this may not work!

One thing that Wyndham can learn from the belly flopped introduction of Voyager is how effective a randomized, variable delay in returning cancelled reservation to inventory would be to discourage cancel/rebook.


If cancelled reservations returned at some constantly changing delay between 1-5 days after cancellation, it would practically eliminate cancel/rebook. Someone might chase a cancelled reservation for a day, but very few would chase a cancelled reservation for up to 5 days. This would not affect availability, because it would just be as if the canceling owner had held the reservation for the additional time before releasing it.
 

BellaWyn

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Related to the unbelievably flawed website we can speculate intent vs inept or stupid decision-making all day long, but in the end, it still remains speculative. As Eric pointed out, unless we jump "into the bowels" of the code there is no certainty. We know only the results of what we experience and the dominos that fall as a biproduct of owners not being able to search, find or obtain reservations. VIP or no VIP, owners are having similar experiences as evidenced by the miriad of complaints, long hold times and lengthy triage results windows. IT gets it's marching orders from levels above. They fix what they have the skill sets to fix based on the design criteria determined in the planning.

You accuse them of "intent" to mislead and imply that what they are doing is illegal or in violation of their fiduciary duties. That is fraud, even if you avoid the word. The fact that you are reverting to word games means you are using the same tactics you are complaining about. Yes I have a legal degree and yes I call bullshit when I see people (or salesman) playing word games. I am also in IT (over 25 years)and this is one of the worst website implementations I have ever seen. for this to be intentional is absurd.

So that I am clear on what you are saying:
1) You do not believe that sales people intentionally mislead when selling the product or that Wyndham continues to support that activity?
2) You are certain the decision-makers did not know the website would be in any way dysfunctional when they instructed IT to roll it out?

Here is what your legal training, that teaches one to read between lines and suss out information that may or may not exist, keeps missing about my posts:

1) I take exception to the rhampholean posturings that diminsh the frustrations of ALL owners, whether it be specific to the poorly designed website or the lengthy known history of Wyndhams method of obfuscating information.
2) Dislike the short-sighted posturing of telling owners what the should or should not think
3) Will not accept broad representations made by the singular as a viable reflection of what ALL owners are or are not thinking
4) Will seek to clarify over-simplified statements that minimize what owners perceive they have lost in the process of change.


Have never said it is illegal (Wyn is way too smart for that), fraudlent, or in "violation of fiducuary duties" because I am NOT a legal person. That is left to the owners that are legal people to determine based on their professional experience. What you translate as inference is your overactive legal brain searching for BS because that is what you know and expect.

Bottom line is, as Ron points out with some regularity, what I think is of no consequence. Change happened, loopholes closed, and owners ARE finding ways to adapt. Some are even getting out. Change is a PROCESS and this is not the first time we have experienced it with our ownerships (for many here). The door slammed closed, I get it, I hear it, I'm living it just like almost everyone else here. But as we all continue to find ways to adapt, it is also the natural process for humans to want try to understand it so they can move through the greiving process that comes with the individual's perception of loss and change.

I come to TUG specifically to get credible information to help me navigate my ownership. What I have learned, over time, is that there are credible voices here and others that have now become suspect because the skin of a chameleon is adaptive. Perhaps my voice is suspect to many others here related to what I state or the motivations behind the responses. That is for the individual to choose what makes sense to them and what does not. TUG is a community of people with broad experiences and perspectives. We naturally gravitate to what makes sense to us.

Lots of lines above -- will be interesting what the "read between" translations come up with :rolleyes: only because in reality, it does not exist.
 

vacationhopeful

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I believe the NEW rules and operational delays (on the computer reservation system will JUST increase Wyndham's rental market (position & number of units). Wyndham is the LARGEST MEGA-RENTER ... and most likely is larger NOW than all the ACTIVE mega-renters at each and every resort during the PRIME SEASONs.

So try booking or renting any week in February in Southeast Florida verses the same resorts for any week in August.

Wyndham is in it for the $$$$$ ... they have a 'captive owner base' paying MFs plus Wyndham can control who gets available inventory at any time of the year.... with rule changes and enforcement of those rules.... and no independent auditor or any review process.

PS Does Wyndham pay for Guest Certificate, Housekeeping Credits or Reservation Transactions?
 

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Be careful in what you say. I'm understanding from your post. That you specifically asked someone to commit fraud and be in breach of their fiduciary duties to the trust on your behalf. If a class action is filed. Should you and others be sued with Wyndham ?
You're funny but no because what we did was EXACTLY what we were told and sold and in fact executed by Wyndham corporate. That might not be the way you understood it and you might not like the fact that VIPs with lots of point could book 3br units at half the cost of a 1br but that is EXACTLY what wyndham intended. In fact this is what the OC rep told me three years ago (not a quote but my best recollection).
"Wyndham offered upgrades and discounts in the same window, at the same time. Of course they expect you to get an upgrade with a discount".

Wyndham is certainly entitled to change the rules - the question is did the change benefit them and are they in fact acting as an independent trustee in their decisions and actions. I don't know but I question the level of screw up here as possibly incompetent which could also cause questions about their actions as a trustee. I'm good for now. Upgrades are working OK, but there is a loss of opportunity for now. As a platinum owner with with 2million + points for personal use and some random rentals, even with the changes - I'm still better off than most. I just hate it for the silver and gold guys who are really getting pinched with the new upgrade program - and of course the non-vips who get the worst of the boot.
 

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I am not a lawyer nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I do have a background in IT and was a network administrator for a large school district. I have to agree with you on your statement, "this is one of the worst website implementations I have ever seen". However, the design to limit the website's main function, which is to search for availability and book a reservation, had to have been by design. A key search function was eliminated from the new website. So far from what I read in all the posts no one has a valid explanation of the positive aspect of the limits imposed on us by Wyndham. As I stated previously, why eliminate some features and degrade search functions on a new website unless it was by design? Does anyone have a legitimate answer? Perhaps to benefit Wyndham and Extra Holidays. . .?
I had posted earlier that the changes in the search function was deliberately changed. My explanation was to slow down mega renters from makeing multiple reservationsin the first minute. I believe that Wyndham believes this will further spread out reservations among more owners. I then added, for at least a minute or two. Also, I think they are wrong, and the elimination of cancel and rebook was enough.

As far as fraud, Ron's right, cancel and rebook is still there, but the VC's can't help, and it has to go through the upgrade cycle.

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Over half of the units in the whole Wyndham system have been tied up in the past for cancel -rebook - upgrade.
We have a CWA contract but was told like others that we will see more available units than those without CWA.
The new trick to cancel - rebook with Voyager. Is you can't.

I'm not picking on you here. I think your report from the update is great and it shows how they are spinning this - but I see NO reason they have provided for an owner to buy developer points to upgrade and get VIP status. I'm waiting to hear that pitch from someone.

Now I see =two important points here.

If half of the inventory is tied up in c/r then where is it when the transaction goes through? In other words we should see the other half coming back on line when the complete the c/r process but as someone who watched the screens every day, at BC the largest target of megas - inventory rarely came back. The key is that after 60 days it goes to Wyndham's extra holidays so if there was any extra it went there and THAT is what most smart people are asking about. It's not that this in violation of their contract with us but as a designated trustee in a regulated business, with a publicly traded company - there could be legal trust issue in their role as a trustee (which is to make decisions in the best interest of the owners independent of how that will impact your own interest and in fact some would argue that they should have no vested interest in the trust but I think that is too much to ask.

The second point is where they said there is not cancel rebook. That is not true. I've done it and others are figuring out how. It will be less ,but it is and will happen.

Comicbookman had it right in a post above. They haven't changed the rules. They just changed how things are working.

Think about that for a minute. They didn't change the rules (and Lord knows they could have added that in with all the recent rule changes).

Here we are all guessing what they intended and wanted, so ask yourself this. If their intention was to stop cancel rebook, why not make is crystal clear and add a rule saying that this is not allowed in addition to their system changes. That makes ya go hmmmmm doesn't it.

Ya know why they didn't put it in there, because it can still be done. You have to closely manage the 60 days, and how many units on hold, have more than one person on the account and such. I'm not saying this can be done as a for profit business but it can and has been done since the conversion. Trust me I got a dozen bookings thus far.

Now Wyndham with all our speculation hasn't specifically said you cannot do this so how can anyone with a straight face said this is or was not allowed.
 

Sandy VDH

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cancel and rebook is still there, but the VC's can't help, and it has to go through the upgrade cycle.

And the upgrade cycle is also designed to NOT give out as many upgrades.

Cancellations do not get matched to waiting requests, they go into inventory first, allowing any other member to book them at full points, or allow a VIP member to get an upgrade (if a smaller unit is available if your lucky) or get that unit at a VIP discount ahead of the person waiting for the upgrade batch to run. Designed to give less upgrades or just poorly designed, I can't tell, but it doesn't work very well.

The upgrade batch job is in doubt if it is running at all, or at more than a once a night frequency, as there have been situations reported that for 3 days period inventory existed to upgrade into but NO upgrade was processed by the batch job.

In the last 5 days....
Is the upgrade batch job running?? Has anyone a REQUESTED UPGRADE been matched lately?? Has anyone else received notices to take away upgrades previously granted

My answers
I don't know if the batch is running, I have no proof one way or the other, hence my question.
I have my examples where inventory was available but my request did not get matched. Over the phone I was told 'BATCH RUNS OVERNIGHT'.
Last noticed I received about taking away an upgrade already provided was 5 days ago.
 
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