• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Super fast transfer with Legal Timeshare Transfers

Status
Not open for further replies.

rrlongwell

newbie
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,770
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Mechanicsburg, Pa.
I don't claim to be a lawyer and a couple of posts here are not going to make
Me believe these people are felons. Just because someone has a license does
Not mean they can't make an error on your deed. The odds of this are very slim
In both cases.

You are right on your belief that they are not felons. As I understand it, they do not officially get that designation until they are convicted of crimes. In this case, I guess we will have to wait and see what the outcome will be. It has been a very very interesting thread. If this is a company engaging in illegal activies relating to the preparation of deeds etc., thier day may very well come where they get to explain to a jury of there peers.
 
Last edited:

slip

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
11,209
Reaction score
14,727
Points
999
Location
U'alapue/Kaunakakai, Hawaii
Resorts Owned
Pono Kai, 20 wks; Maui Schooner, 1.5 wks; 1 week Ke Nani Kai; WaveCrest Condo, Molokai, HI
Or they are not engaging in any illegal activity and nothing will happen.

"Interesting" is a good way to put this thread.:D
 

ace2000

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Messages
5,032
Reaction score
152
Points
498
I'm not sure what the end game would be with Georgia as to their doing deeds in other states illegally. I do know that in states where these acts are felonies, such as they are in North Carolina when money changes hands for the services, they can be extradicted and tried in North Carolina. Hopefully the same is true in Hawaii.

Who in their right mind would want to do business with an entity that as part of their business model regularly commits criminal acts, including felonies? Especially when they have a competitor (and TUG adveriser) which provides the same service at similar prices but complies with the law?

Seems like an odd paradox to me. You've got some on TUG that like to scold others for advising the LLC route because it's illegal, and then the same individuals advising to go this route - even if it's illegal. I can't figure it out... not even going to try.
 

rrlongwell

newbie
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,770
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Mechanicsburg, Pa.
Seems like an odd paradox to me. You've got some on TUG that like to scold others for advising the LLC route because it's illegal, and then the same individuals advising to go this route - even if it's illegal. I can't figure it out... not even going to try.

Like you, I have seen interesting differences in position from the same people on TUG. Given, position can change with more information or if the circumstances change.

Just a personal thought on the issue, a LLC holding timeshares is not inherently bad or illegal. The actions of the LLC can be. A lot of companies, in and out of the timeshare industry, are LCCs. If there is a intent to defraud, then that could be illegal whether it is the officers/employees, members of the LLC or if it is a traditional Corporation or partnership, or if it is a person.
 

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
57,763
Reaction score
9,164
Points
1,849
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, 2-SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim)
I do know that in states where these acts are felonies, such as they are in North Carolina when money changes hands for the services, they can be extradicted and tried in North Carolina. Hopefully the same is true in Hawaii.

Seriously - Have you looked at the price of airfare to Hawaii lately?

I hope they extradite me as an accomplice and that it's a long trial - I'd love to go to Hawaii on the States ticket! :D
 
Last edited:

rrlongwell

newbie
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,770
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Mechanicsburg, Pa.
Seriously - Have you looked at the price of airfare to Hawaii lately?

I hope they extradite me as an accomplice and that it's a long trial - I'd love to go to Hawaii on the States ticket! :D

If it happened, the Great State of Hawaii would probably spring for the one way ticket, but the accomadations may not be that great or the ability to get around as someone might want might not be there. I do not think you would be staying in a Wyndham level resort.
 
Last edited:

AwayWeGo

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
15,711
Reaction score
1,647
Points
699
Location
McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.
Resorts Owned
Grandview At Las Vegas

[triennial - points]
No, No -- He Said It's The SAME Thing.

I hope they extradite me as an accomplice and that it's a long trial - I'd love to go to Hawaii on the States ticket!
Yeh -- but that's not where you'd be going.

Violators can be extradited & put on trial in North Carolina.

In Hawaii it's the same thing -- so that means if Hawaii extradites you, you'll be going to . . . North Carolina.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
57,763
Reaction score
9,164
Points
1,849
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, 2-SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim)
Yeh -- but that's not where you'd be going.

Violators can be extradited & put on trial in North Carolina.

In Hawaii it's the same thing -- so that means if Hawaii extradites you, you'll be going to . . . North Carolina.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Alan - Thanks so much for the warning! In that case, I will pass - I can't stand that humidity! ;)
 

BocaBum99

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
6,651
Reaction score
4
Points
323
Location
Boca Raton, FL
And if that every happens in Hawaii, I will definitely take it into consideration, but right now, Hawaii doesn't know or care who prepares the timeshare deeds recorded in Hawaii....

You cannot be serious. So, if a person walks into a liquor store and nobody sees him steal a bottle of whiskey, it's legal? There is no law to install cameras, so the state doesn't care about theft?

Since you own in Hawaii, you know that there are at least 2 ways that deeds get recorded and that there are many additional clauses and pages that need to go along with the recording. Surely you have seen such recordings. The reason why many states require attorneys to prepare deeds and title transfers is because real estate laws are complex in many states. Hawaii can be particularly challenging.

I understand that you like this company, but they do illegal activities. We know that. You know that. Yet you still recommend them. Since you support illegal activity, you lose any moral authority regarding the legalities or illegalities of Viking Ship, LLCs. At least be consistent.
 

Beefnot

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
62
Points
284
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I understand that you like this company, but they do illegal activities. We know that. You know that.

Even after reading the americanbar.org link and state of hawaii link I found, I am not yet convinced they are absolutely performing illegal activities, at least in Hawaii. As for other states, well I dunno.
 

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
57,763
Reaction score
9,164
Points
1,849
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, 2-SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim)
Since you support illegal activity, you lose any moral authority regarding the legalities or illegalities of Viking Ship, LLCs. At least be consistent.

In light of the emails I have been getting from people about your new endeavor, I find this comment quite provocative - care to enlighten us?

I had no idea that I had "moral authority," and I'm quite sure that if I do, you don't have the power to revoke it. ;)

BTW - My primary issue with Viking Ships is that they screw over the HOA... and I have said that many, many times.
 
Last edited:

rrlongwell

newbie
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,770
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Mechanicsburg, Pa.
In light of the emails I have been getting from people about your new endeavor, I find this comment quite provocative - care to enlighten us?

I had no idea that I had "moral authority," and I'm quite sure that if I do, you don't have the power to revoke it. ;)

BTW - My primary issue with Viking Ships is that they screw over the HOA... and I have said that many, many times.

I agree with the intent and meaning of BocaBum99's post. However, on one very minor detail, I tend to agree with you. I not sure you have any moral authority. If this is true, then there is nothing to revoke. I just observe this to show that on occassion, I agree with you.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Seriously - Have you looked at the price of airfare to Hawaii lately?

I hope they extradite me as an accomplice and that it's a long trial - I'd love to go to Hawaii on the States ticket! :D

. . . but when you have ''defendant'' after your name, the accomodations provided can be, well, a bit below those expected by timesharers . . .
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Boca, we are often on different sides of issues, but you are spot on as to this one.

The main distinction I would make is that in this case Denise is not even advocated going into the liqour store to steal the bottle of whiskey. She is advocating buying it from a bootlegger outside. And if the state does not have spy planes up to watch for bootleggers, it is not because they do not care about bootlegging.


You cannot be serious. So, if a person walks into a liquor store and nobody sees him steal a bottle of whiskey, it's legal? There is no law to install cameras, so the state doesn't care about theft?

Since you own in Hawaii, you know that there are at least 2 ways that deeds get recorded and that there are many additional clauses and pages that need to go along with the recording. Surely you have seen such recordings. The reason why many states require attorneys to prepare deeds and title transfers is because real estate laws are complex in many states. Hawaii can be particularly challenging.

I understand that you like this company, but they do illegal activities. We know that. You know that. Yet you still recommend them. Since you support illegal activity, you lose any moral authority regarding the legalities or illegalities of Viking Ship, LLCs. At least be consistent.
 
Last edited:

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Beags, do you seriously contend that a company whose basic business model is to regularly violate the criminal law, including felonies, is ''reputable''?


No good deed goes unpunished.

I, for one, appreciate any information on timeshare purchasing, especially with regard to transfer and escrow agencies. I do not interpret this information as legal gospel, but do my own due diligence.



Any time I can be directed towards a reputable company, no matter the source, I find it beneficial.

I find no conflict of interest here, whatsoever. I do find some nitpicking (citing case law and other discussions), but thatjust opens things up to healthy (hopefully) dialogue.

Denise, thanks for reporting your experience. I like your chronology of events. Nice timeline and easy to follow.I will add it to my list of timesharing resources along with the other valuable information given by you and other TUG members and dare I say, moderators.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
Maybe someone should bring the activities of this scofflaw firm to the attention of the appropriate authorities in Georgia. Indeed sending a copy of this thread to the appropriate authorities in Georgia and Hawaii might get some things moving.


If the firm that is the subject of this thread is not licenced in the State of Georgia, I would think this might be a bigger problem for them at some point.

Georgia
CODE OF GEORGIA ANNOTATED TITLE 15. COURTS CHAPTER 19. ATTORNEYS ARTICLE 3. REGULATION OF PRACTICE OF LAW
§5-19-50. “Practice of law” defined.
The practice of law in this state is defined as: (1) Representing litigants in court and preparing pleadings and other papers incident to any action or special proceedings in any court or other judicial body; (2) Conveyancing; (3) The preparation of legal instruments of all kinds whereby a legal right is secured; (4) The rendering of opinions as to the validity or invalidity of titles to real or personal property; (5) The giving of any legal advice; and (6) Any action taken for others in any matter connected with the law. It is my understanding that the firm operates from the Great State of Georgia. I do not know what impact, if any, would arise if George moved against the firm on the firms customers.

http://www.americanbar.org/content/d...thcheckdam.pdf
 

Ridewithme38

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
3,325
Reaction score
4
Points
273
Location
Long Island, NY
Man i cant believe how upstanding citizens you guys are! Never driving 1 mile over the speed limit, rolling through stop signs, jaywalking or ever having in your lives performing one illegal act...I am so glad that i am in the presence of such good and moral folks....

The fact is, at the end of the day...Well, let me quote Shakespeare

if all men were treated to their just deserts, everybody would be whipped

This 'moral high ground' stuff is just a weak argument, if the worst thing i do today is fill out a legal document without a lawyer present, i'd feel like a saint
 

slip

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
11,209
Reaction score
14,727
Points
999
Location
U'alapue/Kaunakakai, Hawaii
Resorts Owned
Pono Kai, 20 wks; Maui Schooner, 1.5 wks; 1 week Ke Nani Kai; WaveCrest Condo, Molokai, HI
Nobody is stopping anyone from reporting anything. Go ahead and do something
if your appalled. You may find out your wrong.
 

ace2000

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Messages
5,032
Reaction score
152
Points
498
BTW - My primary issue with Viking Ships is that they screw over the HOA... and I have said that many, many times.

You have brought up the fact that the LLC's were illegal many more times.
 

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
57,763
Reaction score
9,164
Points
1,849
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, 2-SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim)
You have brought up the fact that the LLC's were illegal many more times.

Really? Are you keeping stats on my posts? You are incorrect...
 

Beefnot

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
62
Points
284
Location
Los Angeles, CA
DeniseM's central gripe with post card companies' using LLCs has always been around the intent with which they were created. She maintained that they are set up as "viking ship" LLCs for the express purpose of screwing HOAs at some point in time, a purpose she and others have maintained is illegal.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
DeniseM's central gripe with post card companies' using LLCs has always been around the intent with which they were created. She maintained that they are set up as "viking ship" LLCs for the express purpose of screwing HOAs at some point in time, a purpose she and others have maintained is illegal.

The Viking Ship model is illegal in that it sets up those who use it for being sued in civil court for Fraudulent Conveyance, as a number of national timeshare management companies are gearing up to start doing.

The scofflaw closing firms may be dealt with in civil court as well, but additionally are violating criminal law in many states.
 

Carolinian

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
10,672
Reaction score
946
Points
598
Location
eastern Europe
I am not assuming anything. I have seen the mistakes that these incompetent scofflaw closing companies make many times in recorded deeds in Dare County, North Carolina. Indeed, the majority of deed chains (they often prepare two deeds when working for the PCC's) from scofflaw closing companies I have seen with my own eyes are invalid to pass title in North Carolina.

If an attorney makes a mistake, when you have remedies against his legal malpractice insurance or by complaining to the State Bar. Good luck with a scofflaw closing company. If your escrow disappears as it did with the John Faeth closing company, also recommended by many on these boards, then in many states the State Bar will have a client security fund to make it good. That did not happen with the victims of John Faeth who were sometimes out thousands of dollars.

If someone from a resort tells you the week is still yours, it will probably be because legally it still is, and then you will have the choice of paying up, or having your credit destroyed. Your choice, just like using a scofflaw closing company is your choice.

Some of the common errors I see on deeds from scofflaw closing companies include:

1) not containing all of the legal requisites for a valid deed in North Carolina
2) using corporate deed templates for individual deeds (this does not always make the deed invalid to pass title but often does)
3) not copying the entire legal description
4) using a legal description from the wrong resort
5) failing to pick up the week and unit number when they are in the body of the deed instead of within the description
6) changing the unit and week number where it appears for convenience but not in the description where it matters from a legal standpoint.
7) using language from another state on joint tenancy. Because of a North Carolina statute and subsequnet Supreme Court case, one has to be VERY specific here or you end up with a tenancy in common instead. This does not invalidate title but it could be very expensive at probate time. An NC attorney in most situations would have solved the problem by creating a tenancy by the entirety instead, which can be done by inserted one word (and it is not ''entirety'') and has the same attributes that most are looking for with a joint tenancy.

One Outer Banks HOA spent thousands of dollars hiring an attorney to try to clean up the deeds at their resort, most of the mess coming from scofflaw timeshare closing companies. Of course, that should have been the expenses of the members in the mess, and not an HOA expense.

Avoiding legal fees can often be a false economy. I remember well one potential client who came in when I was in the private practice of law. To save the ~$200 legal fee at the time for an uncontested divorce, she had copied what someone else had done, prepared her own papers and obtained the divorce. Unfortunately for her, she had a substantial marital property claim agasint her husband for property that was solely in his name, and a divorce decree cuts off that claim unless language is inserted to preserve it. She, of course, did not know to do this and did not include it in the divorce decree she prepared herself. So, to save $200, she shot herself out of the saddle on what would otherwise have been a solid claim for ~$100,000.


Again, no one has given an example of any one having a problem. Your assuming that these
"jackleg" company's are making a mistake and there will be a future problem.
I'm not worried about this at all. An attorney can make a mistake just like
anyone else. As Denise says, it's not on the deed who did the prep. If the state sees an issue with the way things are, they will make a change.

If there is a special assessment after I deeded away the property, I'm not
worried about someone saying it's still mine. Sometimes people worry just to
worry. There's probably less chance of that happening than me winning the
lottery.:rofl:

My father bought a house in Wisconsin about 40 years ago. During the deed
transfer, an error was found in the deed. The error was made by another
attorney 15 years before during another transfer. The error was corrected no
problems.
 

gnorth16

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Messages
1,847
Reaction score
85
Points
259
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
I may be wrong, but slip was referring to Legal Timeshare Transfers, not the PCC closing companies. I have closed a timeshare with LTT twice and they were better than any other closing company I have done business with. Their efficiency, accuracy and cost make them my #1 choice for any future need for a closing company.
 

rrlongwell

newbie
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,770
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Mechanicsburg, Pa.
I may be wrong, but slip was referring to Legal Timeshare Transfers, not the PCC closing companies. I have closed a timeshare with LTT twice and they were better than any other closing company I have done business with. Their efficiency, accuracy and cost make them my #1 choice for any future need for a closing company.

How were they better than other closing companies? What all did they do for the closing cost fee? How much was it?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top