Question about Right to Use Ownership [St Maarten Sea Palace]

[jemmk]

Bear with me, am new at this - but have a situation that could use some help, if anyone has some knowledge to share. Here is the situation as simply as I can put it… if more details are needed, I would gladly provide!
-We bought a timeshare at a resort in St Maarten 30 years ago, never received the 'deed' we were promised at the time, and didn't realize it until I recently wanted to put it up for sale. I asked the resort/management company to provide me with one. They said it wasn't deeded, was a 'right to use' timeshare. Also said they have no 'file' on us - the old management company kept it, and they can't access it.
-I asked for some sort of proof of ownership, since I don't want to try to sell something, that after emailing with them, I'm not sure I actually own. We recently sold another week, had a deed, transferred it - was very easy! With this one, they won't/can't provide me with any ownership documents. They say they can 'handle a transfer', if I have a buyer - but I don't trust them, and I'm very hesitant to do that. I don't want someone else to have a problem.
-So my questions are these -
- What sort of documents should we have if we do own a right to use timeshare?
- Also, it seems foolish on our part to continue to pay mtc fees when they can't/won't provide me with proof of ownership. So what happens if I just stop paying them?

We want to be done with this timeshare. I was going to sell it at a bargain price, or give it away - we just don't want it, or it's expense - especially now that we've been given the run around on ownership. But, I would have preferred to sell it, and be rid of it the proper way. And, would have tried, if they had given me ownership papers. Any help or advice on the questions above would be greatly appreciated!

 

[DeniseM]

Welcome - we can be more helpful if you post the complete name of the resort.

Rules vary widely from resort to resort.

 

[jemmk]

Thanks! It's the St Maarten Sea Palace.

 

[MuranoJo]

With RTU, you don't really 'own' it--you are typically just considered a member with rights to use as specified by your contract. Therefore you also don't get a deed with purchase.

Since it sounds as if you purchased directly from the resort 30 years ago, you should have received a copy of the contract which you could pass on to the new owner.

Typically with RTU, you conduct the transfer directly with the resort, so you'd need to ask them what type of paperwork you'll need, as well as any transfer fees.

You may also want to see if a moderator would feel it's best to move this to the Caribbean forum where you may find someone who owns there and can give you their experience.

 

[jemmk]

Okay - but when we bought it, they said we'd receive a deed, and now they say it's RTU. They said they'd help us rent it or sell it - and when I've asked in the past - they say they can't. So the 'rules' have changed along the way. And, I guess I just don't get the concept of owning what they call 'real estate' - with no official record of it, except that we're on a 'list'. Does St Maarten have official/legal record of us 'owning' it? I wonder?

I wonder, also, how am I legally bound to pay mtc/assessment fees when I don't 'own' it? What if I don't want to be a 'member' anymore? Does anyone know of a way out of this without having to find a buyer? I'd really like to just be done with it.

I think I would like to see what someone in the Caribbean forum thinks - thanks!

 

[SueDonJ]

... I think I would like to see what someone in the Caribbean forum thinks - thanks!

[Thread moved at OP's request.]

Good luck, jemmk!

 

[MuranoJo]

I followed you over here from the Buying, Selling, Renting forum because I do have a few other comments.

First, it's common to hear outright lies at sales presentations. And since they've told you that you have RTU, it's pretty obvious you must have been lied to when they told you they'd send you a 'deed.' Ditto on the promise they'd 'help' you rent or sell it. It happens to a lot of people.

As I mentioned before, you should have received a copy of your signed contract--have you located that? Therein you should find the RTU wording as well as transfer info.

Your point that they can't find a record of you (i.e., don't have the original contract paperwork) is interesting. Does make it tempting, doesn't it, to just tell them if they can't prove you signed anything, well, no more m/f from you.

I've personally never seen anyone report any repercussions from walking away from a Caribbean contract--but it may depend on where the headquarters are located.

Hoping others with personal experience in this region will add their thoughts.

Best of luck.

 

[jemmk]

Thank you, MuranoJo - for your input and thoughts! I have thought about just walking away, but want to be better educated before I make that choice - might be no return from that, and I don't want to make a bigger problem. I've wondered the same thing, though - if they can't prove I own it - how will they proceed in trying to collect money from me? I would definitely prefer to sell/transfer it through the proper methods first, though. But this is why I've put it out here on this forum - to see if anyone else has had any experiences with something like this. Thanks again!

 

[ilene13]

All Caribbean and Mexican timeshares are RTU. If you bought it 30 years ago, how long is your contract? Some of ours are 30yrs and others are 50 yrs. you may be at the end of it.

 

[jemmk]

It doesn't say anywhere in what little bit of paperwork we have. I did see that mentioned online - that RTU usually has a time limit, but I'm not seeing it. And I asked the management company for copies of anything that would show us proof of ownership - and they said they can't provide me with anything, since it was so long ago and the old management company still has it and won't give it to them. I'm not liking being stuck in the middle of their fight. It makes it hard to know what we've got, and how we go about getting rid of it. Am pretty frustrated by it all, right about now!

 

[MuranoJo]

Thank you, MuranoJo - for your input and thoughts! I have thought about just walking away, but want to be better educated before I make that choice - might be no return from that, and I don't want to make a bigger problem. I've wondered the same thing, though - if they can't prove I own it - how will they proceed in trying to collect money from me? I would definitely prefer to sell/transfer it through the proper methods first, though. But this is why I've put it out here on this forum - to see if anyone else has had any experiences with something like this. Thanks again!

It's always better for you as well as your fellow t/s owners if you try to give it away first of course. Problem is, if you have minimal paperwork and they have none--how could you reasonably transfer this to someone else? How would they even know what they're getting?

Ilene has an excellent point--Your RTU very likely has an expiration date. But, again, if you can't find it in your limited paperwork and they have zero paperwork, I don't see you as having any options unless you pay into infinity.

 

[jemmk]

Thanks to both of you - MuranoJo and Ilene13! I had been emailing with the management office, with no luck in getting any solid info. When I persisted, she forwarded my emails to the CEO of Defender Resorts - and all he did was send me a letter with his assurances that we owned it - even though he couldn't provide me with any proof of ownership. He said, in the Caribbean 'deeds to timeshares are not recorded at any courthouse', and St Maarten has ruled that 'the official records of the Association are the records maintained by the Association'. And he mentions that "luckily' for us - St Maarten 'Court of First Instance' states that we have 'use into perpetuity' - which, if true is my worst nightmare!

So I'm wondering now, going through all of this - if the Association doesn't have record of our ownership, how do they have any recourse if we just stop paying? I did just pay our mtc fees for 2015 - because I'm still trying to figure this out, and need to find out as much as I can before making a decision on what to do. I don't particularly want to just walk away. Have never defaulted on any of our bills…ever. That said - I want to be done with this timeshare - I would give it away, if I could. I'm not really comfortable selling, and making this someone else's problem - so, right now, I don't see what else to do but walk away. I feel like they are making THEIR record keeping problem - MY problem! And I'm about ready to just walk. Anyone have thoughts on this from a legal standpoint?

 

[TheViking]

All Caribbean and Mexican timeshares are RTU. If you bought it 30 years ago, how long is your contract? Some of ours are 30yrs and others are 50 yrs. you may be at the end of it.

Are you certain that ALL Caribbean timeshares are only RTUS. I have someone (a friend not trying to sell) saying he has a deed and "owns" the unit.

 

[ilene13]

Are you certain that ALL Caribbean timeshares are only RTUS. I have someone (a friend not trying to sell) saying he has a deed and "owns" the unit.

Am I 100% sure --no, but for instance we own Marriott Aruba Ocean Club weeks and Royal Resort weeks in Mexico, all of them are RTU but if you look on line at rental and sales ads many of the owners mark them as deeded. They do not know the difference!!

 

[stmartinfan]

Now that you are current for this year, it seems like you could write them and say, in effect, I will pay no further maintenance fees unless you can provide me with legal documentation that we are owners in perpetuity of this timeshare. If there's no proof provided, then it seems like you could walk away. What's their legal recourse to come after you?

Of course, it's St. Maarten, so who knows what a court would decide there!

We are owners at Divi and our time share ownership is for 40 years, with the right to use any of the last 10 years "early," when we want to spend 2 weeks so years. Their home office is in NC, so they seem to have good records of this all, and our contract was pretty clear as well.

 

[Ppt]

Jemmk
I have the same problem with getting proof of ownership. Did u ever get any resolution from sea palace

 

[JMSH]

As oppose to you trying to prove that their is paperwork as it pertains to ownership or Right of Use why don't you simply stop paying MF's and allow them to prove that you should be paying them.....they will quickly, if they can, provide documentation......if they can not than your issue is solved and they have no legal recourse to pursue the matter. Sorry just looked at the date this thread started...would be interested in knowing the final outcome?

 

[silentg]

Our first timeshare was a RTU was a 30 year lease started in 1981 and expired 2011 . The resort is Seasons at Sugarbush in Vermont. We made good use of that week and the resort went to several ownerships and we were asked to move to another unit. We complied with everything. I kept all the original paperwork and when the time came to end, I simply wrote a letter to the manager stating that our RTU had ended and we were done . I have not heard anything from them so that was it..
Was also successful at returning my SA timeshare to the resort since I kept all the original documents. We have two other RTU resorts and honestly, prefer them because when the time is up, we can just give them back and not worry about selling or renting or maintenance fee again. Hopefully you can do the same. Good Luck!
Silentg