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Maui purchase and pricing questions

mike2200

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We are in the midst of making an offer to purchase a 2bed 3ba OV annual for about 31K any opinions, thoughts on the price, or things we should look at or ask. this unit does not currently have anything booked for 2008 will that be a problem?

Also is there any concern that due to the new buildings coming into play that the original building units will go down in price as Marriott will not be buying those as much to keep the price up as they will be more inclined to buy resales from the new buildings to keep those prices closer to purchases from Marriott directly-

again thanks for all the input!!!

email:mike2200@hotmail.com
 

Lawlar

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31 K is a lot of money for a TS

I am uncertain from your post, if you are buying directly from Marriott. If so, you should first look at the options to buy from current owners. As is said often by others on this site, you can buy for about ½ price if you buy from another owner.

I bought in the new Lahaina building last August. I soon discovered that it would be impossible to get good dates (like summer) because owners with multiple weeks are able to reserve dates 13 months in advance (single unit owners must wait until 12 months in advance, by which time good dates are no longer available). I was really unhappy because the salesperson told me that no one would have the ability to select dates before I did. I do not know if it is that difficult to get good dates in the older building.

After a few threats, a few unkind words, and some negotiation, I changed my ownership to a fixed unit. A fixed unit ensures that we will get to go on a desirable date each year without worrying that we may not be able to get what we want.

Check out everything the salesperson tells you. If you signed a purchase contract, you have seven days to cancel. You probably would be smart to cancel, unless money is unimportant to you.

By the way, you can stay at some very nice hotels on Kaanapali beach for about the same price that you will pay for the yearly maintenance fees (not to mention the interest you could earn on your 31K). You can book a hotel room for any day of the year, without all the hassles you get with a TS.
 

m61376

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I bought in the new Lahaina building last August. I soon discovered that it would be impossible to get good dates (like summer) because owners with multiple weeks are able to reserve dates 13 months in advance (single unit owners must wait until 12 months in advance, by which time good dates are no longer available).
FYI only 50% of the available reservations can be made 13 months beforehand. Half are saved till the 12 month mark. It appears much easier to reserve what you want if you own multiple weeks because relatively fewer people own multiple weeks than single weeks, so there is less competition.
 

sdtugger

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I am uncertain from your post, if you are buying directly from Marriott. ...
I bought in the new Lahaina building last August. I soon discovered that it would be impossible to get good dates (like summer) because owners with multiple weeks are able to reserve dates 13 months in advance (single unit owners must wait until 12 months in advance, by which time good dates are no longer available). I was really unhappy because the salesperson told me that no one would have the ability to select dates before I did. I do not know if it is that difficult to get good dates in the older building.

After a few threats, a few unkind words, and some negotiation, I changed my ownership to a fixed unit. A fixed unit ensures that we will get to go on a desirable date each year without worrying that we may not be able to get what we want.
...
By the way, you can stay at some very nice hotels on Kaanapali beach for about the same price that you will pay for the yearly maintenance fees (not to mention the interest you could earn on your 31K). You can book a hotel room for any day of the year, without all the hassles you get with a TS.

Lawlar, I'm puzzled by your thinking on this one. You point out that 31K is alot to pay for a timeshare, but how much did you pay for your fixed week in the new tower? When I was there in November, a two bedroom OV was selling for $55,500 in the original buildings. I can't recall the price in the new tower, but I know it was over $62K. If true, the OP could purchase two 2 bedroom OV's in the older buildings for the same or lower price as one unit in the new building. They would then have the 13 month advantage and TWO units to use/rent, etc. Certainly not a sure thing, but with two shots at the key weeks, a good bet on getting a good week. I'm just confused by your comment that $31K is alot to spend on a timeshare, but your purchase of a new unit from Marriott for more than twice that amount. Can you explain your thinking?

We recently purchased in the original buildings. We decided to purchase one unit and see if we had any problem reserving the weeks we want. Year one worked out OK (Sunday checkin versus preferred Saturday checkin, but otherwise OK). We spent almost 50% less than what Marriott was asking for the older towers and less than 50% of what Marriott was asking for the new towers. The new tower owners also pay a higher maintenance fee. (We prefer the 3 bathrooms in the older tower anyway so it was a no brainer for us with the lower price).

Sometimes purchases are like buying a BMW instead of a Ford. I'm fine with that, but I'm just curious about your thinking. Thanks.

We purchased this unit in lieu of staying in two rooms at the Westin just down the beach. At least for us, we are paying less for more space even including the time value of the money and the maintenance fee.
 

ciscogizmo1

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I have 2 friends that own at Maui in the older section EOY. They have no problems making reservations at the 12 month mark for summer weeks. I think, to determine if you'll have problems is to figure out how many units there are in your view category. Ask the salesman how many are in each of the categories then, make your decision based on that. Good luck on your decision...

Lawlar, I don't know of too many ocean front hotels that cost less than your maintenance fees for the week (in the summer). Could you provide web links to the ones that are? I'm just curious... I own at Westin so, I have a full kitchen which is very important to us especially in Hawaii...
 

MOXJO7282

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As you can see, I own 2 weeks at the old section. One of the best "investments" I've ever made. My family has gotten so much out of our Maui ownership, in the form of priceless family time together, at a tremendous value.

It may sound crazy, but IMHO the only way to get true value from a Maui ownership, is to own 2 weeks or more, and do what I do, rent the second to "offset" your overall ownership costs. Doing so greatly improves your ROI, and future cash outlay.

If you own just one, you have the initial investment costs and the on going MFs, without any off set from rental income. Because there are so many rental options now, even in Maui, comparing owning vs. renting, IMHO favors renting.

The only exception is if you have to travel during school breaks during prime time. When you compare prime season rental costs, and especially holiday weeks, then in my experience owning is the better option, because owners that rent their holiday week are looking for a big premium for that week, and comparing that to ownership, ownship is more favorable.

If you are someone who can travel during the off-seasons, then ownership really doesn't make sense, IMHO, because there are just too many rental options, even for the Maui Marriott, that it is hard to justify the investment of alot of money when you can rent cheaply. The ROI just isn't there.

Now if you can afford two, I can assure you, owning can be very "rewarding". Rent the second the right way, and you should bring in enough to cover both MFs, or close to that. And if you can rent, 1.5 units, leaving let's say a 1BDRM to use, then you are really getting a great value, and creating a strong ROI.

Regards.
Joe
 

MOXJO7282

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I have 2 friends that own at Maui in the older section EOY. They have no problems making reservations at the 12 month mark for summer weeks. I think, to determine if you'll have problems is to figure out how many units there are in your view category. Ask the salesman how many are in each of the categories then, make your decision based on that. Good luck on your decision...

Lawlar, I don't know of too many ocean front hotels that cost less than your maintenance fees for the week (in the summer). Could you provide web links to the ones that are? I'm just curious... I own at Westin so, I have a full kitchen which is very important to us especially in Hawaii...

Two comments. It depends a great deal on if you own a 1 or 2 BDRM in the older section. Many more 1 BDRMs, so reserving isn't so hard, but 2BDRMs are much more difficult, especially for holiday weeks.

As for cheaper oceanfront options, I agree summer weeks are still somewhat pricey, but shoulder seasons, Sept - early Dec, can be rented at a reasonable rate, something close to what MFs are, and when initial investment is considered, it is definately cheaper to rent than own. I've seen OF units, even at the Maui Marriott go for $2500, some even cheaper, although, maybe of a slightly less quality of Marriott.

Regards.
Joe
 

Lawlar

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Lawlar, I'm puzzled by your thinking on this one. You point out that 31K is alot to pay for a timeshare, but how much did you pay for your fixed week in the new tower? When I was there in November, a two bedroom OV was selling for $55,500 in the original buildings. I can't recall the price in the new tower, but I know it was over $62K. If true, the OP could purchase two 2 bedroom OV's in the older buildings for the same or lower price as one unit in the new building. They would then have the 13 month advantage and TWO units to use/rent, etc. Certainly not a sure thing, but with two shots at the key weeks, a good bet on getting a good week. I'm just confused by your comment that $31K is alot to spend on a timeshare, but your purchase of a new unit from Marriott for more than twice that amount. Can you explain your thinking?

In my prior posts, I have always described my purchase at Marriott as pure folly. I think I went temporarily insane.

The good folks here on TUG have done the math for me and others. I’ll run through it again. I purchased my TS for $58,000 (which may have been a “bargain” because the salespersons were quoting $70,000 and up). The interest on $58,000 is $2,900 (at 5% - invest it in a good mutual fund and you can do much better). Add the yearly MF of $1,700 and you have $4,600 a year in costs for the TS. That is $657 a night. I’m not even mentioning the 12.7% interest on the TS loan.

Now I’ve been going to Hawaii one or two times a year for at least 25 years. I’ve stayed at all of the hotels on Kaanaipali Beach and the Whaler Condos (my best friend bought a one-bedroom Condo there for $170,000 – back in the day). Now I assure you I have never paid anywhere near $4,600 for a week at a hotel on Maui (in fact, I rented a home in Hana for a month for a lot less than that – a lot less, and it was a really nice home).

I love Maui – my wife and I got married there and we spent our tenth anniversary there. I am looking forward to taking our grandkid there every year. But I can’t justify the price. [The grandkid would have been better served if I put that $58,000 in his college fund.]

I recently was tempted to buy a TS at Timber Lodge (resale) for $6,500. I really like that property. But I got lots of advice from TUGGERS that talked me back into reality. In fact, I was able to rent a week at Timber Lodge recently for less than ½ of their yearly MF.

A TS is terrific if you take your family there every year and create wonderful memories – and money is not an issue (you have money to burn). But I can’t justify it to anyone in monetary terms.
 

mike2200

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Great postings thanks-some more thoughts

We will pay cash for the unit thus our cost for the use of the unit would be the $1500. interest lost on the 31K and the yearly MF of $1531. We would split the unit thus getting two weeks of use for our cost of about $1500. per week.

We have talked about buying a 2nd 2bd 3ba but as this is our first adventure into the TS ownership we will buy this one use it and then decide if a 2nd one makes sense as a use or rental vehicle. We go to Hawaii twice a year for 10-14 days at a time so the two weeks fits our needs. We prefer to go during winter Dec-Apr.

Any thoughts on our question regarding pricing of the TS being affected by the addition of the two new towers? thanks
 

Lawlar

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Any thoughts on our question regarding pricing of the TS being affected by the addition of the two new towers? thanks

I have no knowledge if the new towers are helping or hurting the pricing of the older building (which was a nice hotel, way back when). I suspect the TUGGERS who own in the original building would have better insights on that issue.

Hopefully, an upgraded building will just make the area more upscale. It certainly is a great location.

We are going to stay, for the first time, in our Lahaina Unit in January. I’ll chat with the other TS owners and see if I can learn what is going on. You can check for resale prices (listings) at Redweek.com and, more importantly, learn about actual resale prices here on TUG.

Regardless, I think if you purchase with the idea that the costs are affordable to you, and you intend to use it for your enjoyment (don’t think of it as an investment) – then, by all means, purchase it and enjoy!
 

GregT

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I share Lawlar's temporary insanity, but, as I suspect Lawlar feels, I have no regret. I similarly bought in the new building, and did so for several reasons (none of them being financial, as it is not possible to defend).

1) We wanted a 3BR so we can always bring friends
2) We wanted a full kitchen
3) We wanted Week 24 for school reasons

We have young children (7, 5, and 3) and I view the next 10-12 years as an opportunity to continue building priceless memories.

My primary issue with buying the property was not writing the check (although I didn't relish writing the cost), but the concern that I am instilling in my children the belief that an annual trip to Hawaii, staying at the Marriott, is the norm for a vacation. To date, our children appear very well grounded, I hope we can keep it that way!!

I agree totally with PerryM that timeshares should only be contemplated once all other financial issues are in order -- however, if those financial issues are in order, how can we not take the opportunity if something truly priceless is presented?
 

m61376

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There have been many discussions on buying versus renting and, at least for me, a factor worth considering is that once you've paid for it, the cost is forgotten (except for the annual MF's) and you don't have to annually decide if you want to spend the money and go- you have the place, so you're going to use it. You won't sit and debate whether you want to spend the money on the trip or on something else. I know that sounds like sales rhetoric, but it is just human nature. And, in your intended useage, you're spending in the area of $200 a night for great accomodations beachfront in Maui. I think that's a great deal.

As for how the new towers will affect pricing in the old...well, that's anyone's guess. Yes, people tend to covet the "new." However, there is a big price difference, and I think that as the pre-construction pricing of the new towers continues to rise, that the resale pricing of the old towers will benefit. Also, the area in general will benefit from even more of an enhanced image with the more expensive properties.

Of course, this is just talking off the top of my head, but where I think the older units may suffer is in rentals, because people renting may favor the new. Of course, the flip side is that they can be in the same local, share the same facilities and save some money.

Congrats on your purchase, btw :wave:
 

m61376

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My primary issue with buying the property was not writing the check (although I didn't relish writing the cost), but the concern that I am instilling in my children the belief that an annual trip to Hawaii, staying at the Marriott, is the norm for a vacation. To date, our children appear very well grounded, I hope we can keep it that way!!

:D ...but I'll offer you the flip side: you are establishing a family travel ritual, so to speak, so that in 10-15 years, as your kids become adults, they will still look forward to travelling with the folks- and there is A LOT to be said for establishing that tradition. I know from personal experience, as well as that of my friends, that it is really nice that the twenty-somethings still want to come along, and I think that the space and flexibility that a timeshare affords makes it conducive to family vacations. We took a lot of multi-generation family trips as my kids were growing up and I really wish we got on the timeshare bandwagon earlier.
 

ciscogizmo1

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Two comments. It depends a great deal on if you own a 1 or 2 BDRM in the older section. Many more 1 BDRMs, so reserving isn't so hard, but 2BDRMs are much more difficult, especially for holiday weeks.

That's exactly what I mean. They own 1 bedroom units so, they haven't had a problem. I definitely, think that is the key to make sure you can reserve at the 12 month mark (make sure there are enough units in your category to reserve).
 

ciscogizmo1

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I share Lawlar's temporary insanity, but, as I suspect Lawlar feels, I have no regret. I similarly bought in the new building, and did so for several reasons (none of them being financial, as it is not possible to defend).

1) We wanted a 3BR so we can always bring friends
2) We wanted a full kitchen
3) We wanted Week 24 for school reasons

We have young children (7, 5, and 3) and I view the next 10-12 years as an opportunity to continue building priceless memories.

My primary issue with buying the property was not writing the check (although I didn't relish writing the cost), but the concern that I am instilling in my children the belief that an annual trip to Hawaii, staying at the Marriott, is the norm for a vacation. To date, our children appear very well grounded, I hope we can keep it that way!!

I agree totally with PerryM that timeshares should only be contemplated once all other financial issues are in order -- however, if those financial issues are in order, how can we not take the opportunity if something truly priceless is presented?


Another point... is prior to timesharing we did not vacation enough. My dh works 80 hour weeks during tax season and then, 50 hour weeks the rest of the year. Without t/s we would not go on vacation. He knows all our vacations are planned out a full year in advance. He works his schedule so, he has nothing major going on those weeks. My dh needs that use or lose it kinda of vacation. Otherwise, we'd just keep pushing off those vacations to another week because of work.
 

MOXJO7282

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I share Lawlar's temporary insanity, but, as I suspect Lawlar feels, I have no regret. I similarly bought in the new building, and did so for several reasons (none of them being financial, as it is not possible to defend).

1) We wanted a 3BR so we can always bring friends
2) We wanted a full kitchen
3) We wanted Week 24 for school reasons

We have young children (7, 5, and 3) and I view the next 10-12 years as an opportunity to continue building priceless memories.

My primary issue with buying the property was not writing the check (although I didn't relish writing the cost), but the concern that I am instilling in my children the belief that an annual trip to Hawaii, staying at the Marriott, is the norm for a vacation. To date, our children appear very well grounded, I hope we can keep it that way!!

I agree totally with PerryM that timeshares should only be contemplated once all other financial issues are in order -- however, if those financial issues are in order, how can we not take the opportunity if something truly priceless is presented?

Even though I keep close track of my ROI, and all the associated figures, I got into TSs for the exact reason GregT. articulated so well, the priceless memories they bring. Having said that you can do the same renting at less money, if you have a different profile than GregT. and myself.

If GregT. did the rent vs. buy math for a OF 3BDRM for a week 24, buying is the better option, IMHO, because the cost for renting would be significant.

As for the new towers effecting the old, I've deifinitely haven't seen it, as I had the best year ever renting my 2008 OV units, exceeding previous high by 15% Maui is in such demand that prime weeks will always get a lot of interest.

Regards.
Joe
 

sdtugger

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I've been monitoring Marriott Maui resale prices closely for about 2 years. It appeared that there was a slight dip in the asking prices in late summer, early fall of this year. However, the asking prices appear to have come back mostly to the same asking prices I've seen for the last 2 years. But, periodically, you will still see a price somewhat lower than the going asking price over the last 2 years.

My general sense is that the new tower availability, plus the economy, plus the impending maintenance fee increase/payments, caused a slight dip in late summer/early fall. However, asking prices appear to be back up to basically what I've seen before. I doubt that the new towers will dramatically impact the prices for the original buildings (the Marriott asking price continues to go up).

My other guess is that the new towers and their maintenance fee "surcharges" will continue to make this a great place to vacation! We are very happy with our purchase. We travel at thanksgiving every year and the demand at the hotels make this a much cheaper option for more space (and equal or better quality).
 

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I am not sure if this info is on topic, or useful to anybody here - but here is an excerpt of comments from Laura E. Paugh, SVP of Investor Relations - Marriott (Wachovia Real Estate, Gaming and Lodging Conference, December 5)

Laura is respoinding to a followup analyst questions regarding the timeshare business:

" Timeshare sales have been – the reported revenues have been quite strong. We'll probably end up this year in the $2
billion range with timeshare revenue. If you look at contract sales, which are the sales that the consumers are actually
executing, those are the sales that occur before the project may be financially reportable. Since the timeshare business
covers, is followed by – is percentage of completion accounting, you can receive cash from a consumer who is buying a
timeshare but not be able to recognize it right away if the construction of that unit is not yet at least minimally
complete. So, we look at contract sales as a measure of what the consumer is buying with regard to the product.
This year contract sales have been pretty soft. They're down year over year about 10%. It's interesting because if you
look at projects that were in existence year over year, they are actually much stronger than that. The consumer seems to
be pretty firm. Where we've seen weakness has been in two Hawaiian properties that we had anticipated would be in
sales replacing units that had sold out in the prior year. And the two Hawaiian properties, one of them opened late and
the contract sales were soft because they opened late. One of them was because we found an archaeological discovery
on the property and that stopped all new construction as we brought in the antiquities experts.
And in the second project, we are working with a local partner. It is a great hotel, a great site for timeshare but the
partner we were having difficulty getting the deals working together. We decided to take the partner out, negotiated a
purchase price with the partner. Finally – that took four or five months, finally took the partner out. Both of these
projects are now in sales but the delays from those two projects really set us back substantially in 2007. So we
anticipate contract sales in 2008 will be up 15% but those projects have certainly held us back."
 

mike2200

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TO: SDTugger

So obviously I would be most interested at this time what have you seen over the last two years as the selling range for the OV 2bd3ba unit in the older building on Maui. and thanks for the input-
 

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So obviously I would be most interested at this time what have you seen over the last two years as the selling range for the OV 2bd3ba unit in the older building on Maui. and thanks for the input-

The going asking price for the last few years has hovered around $35K. As I said, a few ads dropped briefly to around $29-30K for a few weeks in late summer and early fall. But, I know that Marriott gobbled up several units between $29 and $30K at that time. The asking prices seem to be higher now. In short, I think $31K right now is about as low as you will get and will be near Marriott ROFR (which is where I think you want to be).
 

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I've been thinking about the difference between the new and old buildings at MOC. This may come across as justification for my own purchase, but I'm sincerely interested in what others are thinking. I've been thinking about the costs and benefits of the new building. Using resale prices, a 2 bedroom OV is $31-35K in the old building and $50-55K in the new building. The Marriott prices are higher, but I believe the price difference is similar. On top of the purchase price difference, the new units have a maintenance fee surcharge of approximately 20% (if memory serves). So, you have an initial $15-20K price difference plus $250+ ongoing MF difference.

What do you get for the difference? A full kitchen, jacuzzi tub, and everything is new. You can also purchase fixed units/weeks and 3 bedrooms. However, the views are no better (and possibly inferier) to the 2 bedrooms in the old units. Old and new share everything outside of the rooms (pools, amenities, parking, etc.).

What do you give up purchasing new instead of old? 3 bathrooms and 3 lanais, proximity to the better pools (the new building's pool is tiny, distant from the ocean, and adjacent to the parking garage), proximity to the main lobby and related facilities (spa, day room, boardwalk cafe, etc.), and possible proximity to the beach/ocean (the new buildings are farther away from the water than the old buildings).

New is new and I can see people simply preferring new. But, I prefer the old units (the 3 bathrooms is enough for me even if the prices were the same, but add in the substantial price difference and it is a no brainer for me). $15-20K plus $250+/year is a pretty high price to pay for a kitchen and jacuzzi tub. I can see someone purchasing new if they had to have a fixed unit/week and I can see purchasing if it is just something you have to have (BMW versus Ford in my earlier example). But, in this case I think it is more like the difference between buying BMW and Mercedes except that the price difference is pretty high.

Of course, everyone's preferences are different. I can make the case in my own tightwad brain that a resale in the old building is actually saving me money on hotel rooms. I can't make that case in the new building. Interested in others thoughts.
 

Lawlar

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I've been thinking about the costs and benefits of the new building. Using resale prices, a 2 bedroom OV is $31-35K in the old building and $50-55K in the new building. The Marriott prices are higher, but I believe the price difference is similar. On top of the purchase price difference, the new units have a maintenance fee surcharge of approximately 20% (if memory serves). So, you have an initial $15-20K price difference plus $250+ ongoing MF difference.

The new price for a 2 bedroom in the Lahaina Villas in August was $50,000 [that is what we agreed to pay before we amended our contract to get OF]. Have the prices been increased since then?

I think the maintenance fees are the same. One would think that a new building would have lower fees.

Does anyone know what Marriott is asking for units in the Napili Villas?
 

taffy19

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Does anyone know what Marriott is asking for units in the Napili Villas?
I recently visited the new Lahaina tower and the salesman gave me the prices for the new Napili tower. I remember that the prices will be higher yet but I lost the price sheet. :eek: I believe that they were going to take reservations right before or after Thanksgiving. I asked him who are these people who are buying these expensive timeshare weeks. They are the people who can afford a second home or condo but don't want the hassle of maintaining it. They most likely buy multiple weeks as money is no object to them. He said that sales were going well and there were quite a few couples there taking the tour.

My husband suffered a stroke in Maui the day we arrived so he never saw the timeshare condo we bought. This was the goal of our trip to Maui. I finally went to see the model myself on the sixth floor and the view was spectacular. We bought the two bedroom condo on the eighth floor but the three bedroom condo's view is so much better plus the condo is very light inside as it has windows on the side.

I took pictures of the view but they are still in my husband's camera as I don't dare to download the pictures in case I do something wrong. My husband is still in the hospital which is over a month now because he has had several complications.

We have never been so happy to leave Maui finally and go home but I had a lot of help from so many TUGgers here who offered me accommodations and help. I was really very touched.
 

GaryDouglas

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Up, up and away...

Napili Villas (2 bedroom):
OF week 51 - $78K, week 52 - $91K
IV (Floating) - $44,900, week 51 - $50K, week 52 - $57K

2 and 3 bedroom fixed weeks (OF) were going from $52,900 to $162,300.

These prices were effective 11/23/07.

The last thing I heard, 2 bedroom OF floating (Napili and Lahaina) were going for $71,900.
 
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