Can anyone recomend a reputable closing company to use for a sale?

[riperoo]

Looking to sell (give away) a fixed week time share and want to use a closing company to handle it, any recomendations?

Thanks,

 

[DeniseM]

For a free timeshare, you don't need a full service closing - many people on TUG have used this document preparation services for simple deed transfers:

Legal Timeshare Transfers
Lisa Short and Mary Pless
http://legaltimesharetransfers.com/

 

[M&JJ]

I recently used the company mentioned by Denise above. They were quick and efficient. Communication was good and they followed up on every step of the process so I new exactly where things were at in transferring ownership to a new owner.

 

[ronparise]

Over the last year I have as a buyer worked with several closing companies and with one transaction We did it ourselves.

There are only two criteria to use when picking a closing company (and price is not one of them) 1) is their work accurate and 2) can they be trusted Once you find the ones that meet these criteria you can select based on personality, and price

Of the several Ive worked with I would only go back to Timeshare Closing Services in Orlando

 

[aliikai2]

Lisa and Mary have done several for us this year

and they are currently doing a few more, they are quick, professional, and affordable. We will continue to use them for any transaction that doesn't require an escrow. Greg

 

[Carolinian]

Remember that one size does not fit all. There are sometimes quirks in state law where a deed that is valid in one state is NOT valid to pass title in another. It is a huge red flag when any closing company says they will do closings in any state.

If you want it done right, and be certain it is right, get an attorney in the state where the timeshare is located to prepare the deed. Get the resort to recommend one.

Of the timeshare closing companies, the only one I know of which does it legally in all states they operate in is PCS Holdings. If they do not have a licensed lawyer for a particular state on staff, they get a lawyer in that state to prepare it. If they don't have a lawyer in a particular state, they will not do closings in that state.

If you want to use an unqualified layman to prepare the deed, why not do it yourself and save the fee the jackleg will charge. Just copy your existing deed EXACTLY but change the names and addresses. From my own HOA experience and observing numerous timeshare deeds, I have found that an owner copying their own old deed is a whole lot more likely to get it right than one that hires a jackleg closing company.

A key question to ask any closing company is, what is the name and State Bar number in the state where the timeshare is located of the person who will prepare the deed? Then go to the State Bar site in that state and confirm the info.

If they say they don't need to use a lawyer, you had better check that out. That may be true in a handful of states, but many require that any third party deed preparer by licensed in that state to practice law. The buyer or seller is an exception and either of them can legally prepare a deed in every state I am aware of. A deed prepared by a non-qualified person is a criminal offense in many states. In North Carolina, it is a misdemenor, but if money changes hands for the deed, when the State Bar's Unauthorized Practice of Law committee goes for enforcement they also charge the felony of False Pretenses, which among other things allows them to extradict those involved.

If they want to put down your own name as the deed preparer, as some do, then run, not walk, away from that company. Allowing them to use your name in that way could at least technically make you an accessory to a crime.

The North Carolina State Bar has issued Cease and Desist letters to a number of the timeshare closing companies and if these people persist, they are likely to find themselves in criminal court. This was done after HOA's complained about all the invalid deeds these jacklegs were recording, which was causing some difficulties for the HOA's.

 

[Carolinian]

For a free timeshare, you don't need a full service closing - many people on TUG have used this document preparation services for simple deed transfers:

Legal Timeshare Transfers
Lisa Short and Mary Pless
http://legaltimesharetransfers.com/

Even though they use the title ''legal'' in their name, have you ever asked them what states, if any, they are licensed to practice law in?

One info item they may be useful for a sticky on this board is to make a list of states that allow laymen to prepare deeds and those which require a properly licensed lawyer to do so if it is not a party to the deed preparing it. That way Tuggers could know what states it is legal for multi-state closing companies to actually prepare deeds in, and which it is not.

 

[DeniseM]

One info item they may be useful for a sticky on this board is to make a list of states that allow laymen to prepare deeds and those which require a properly licensed lawyer to do so if it is not a party to the deed preparing it. That way Tuggers could know what states it is legal for multi-state closing companies to actually prepare deeds in, and which it is not.

Please provide that info. and I will be happy to post it.

 

[Carolinian]

Please provide that info. and I will be happy to post it.

For me, that would require the time to research it. However there is one Tugger who probably has that info, or at least much of it, at his fingertips, as his company does make certain they comply with these laws. Hopefully, he will read this and help out.

 

[Dave H]

For me, that would require the time to research it. However there is one Tugger who probably has that info, or at least much of it, at his fingertips, as his company does make certain they comply with these laws. Hopefully, he will read this and help out.

Denise:

Give me a few days, I am in the middle of moving at home and I will put it together for you. It is my general experience that in most the states, if you are not a licensed attorney and you are preparing deeds for others for a fee, you are practing law without a license. We have discussed this many times.

If you are a party to the sale, then you are ok, however, many of these "legal" closing companies, to fly under the radar will say the deed is prepared by the seller, which if the seller did not do is a complete lie. Thats the kind of company I want working for me...... NOT

 

[nazclk]

Closing Company

Many of you oldies but goodies will probably remember Susan Gale, she and Tia started Timeshare Transfer Inc. She is now in business for herself
Express Timeshare Closings and does a great job.

Susan@ExpressTimeshareClosings.com
772-492-9170

 

[DeniseM]

Denise:

Give me a few days, I am in the middle of moving at home and I will put it together for you. It is my general experience that in most the states, if you are not a licensed attorney and you are preparing deeds for others for a fee, you are practing law without a license. We have discussed this many times.

If you are a party to the sale, then you are ok, however, many of these "legal" closing companies, to fly under the radar will say the deed is prepared by the seller, which if the seller did not do is a complete lie. Thats the kind of company I want working for me...... NOT

Dave sent me the list - 69% of the states have no requirement for deeds to be prepared by an attorney. So, in fact, most states do NOT require you to use an attorney NOR a closing company, at all.

If you have any questions about the state where your timeshare is located, I recommend that you call the County Recorders Office, where the resort is located.

 

[TUGBrian]

if you are still looking and or cant decide, we always suggest companies that support TUG. at the very least you can contact them and see if they can get you the best deal...are a number of closing companies in the list.

http://tug2.net/busiads.shtml

 

[Carolinian]

Dave sent me the list - 69% of the states have no requirement for deeds to be prepared by an attorney. So, in fact, most states do NOT require you to use an attorney NOR a closing company, at all.

If you have any questions about the state where your timeshare is located, I recommend that you call the County Recorders Office, where the resort is located.

Now that Dave has done the work, I guess that will be posted as a sticky as you mentioned earlier?

 

[DeniseM]

Now that Dave has done the work, I guess that will be posted as a sticky as you mentioned earlier?

I need to talk to Brian about it. Since I didn't do the research, or verify it, I'm not sure I should be the one to post it. That's why I recommended checking with the Recorders Office if you aren't sure. I'm not trying to avoid the question, but some of the info. was contradictory, and I'd hate to post the wrong info.

 

[Dave H]

Dave sent me the list - 69% of the states have no requirement for deeds to be prepared by an attorney. So, in fact, most states do NOT require you to use an attorney NOR a closing company, at all.

If you have any questions about the state where your timeshare is located, I recommend that you call the County Recorders Office, where the resort is located.

I would like to clarify the 69% comment. First, I did not do the math. While some state like Lousiana in the list say Attorney to prepare, no, notaries may as well, that is unique to Lousiana and notaries are just short in training as baby lawyers. They serve a totally different role.

I had asked Denise to look not at the country as a whole if she is using percentages, but in the states where timeshares are predominently located. I pointed out 7 or 8 huge timeshare states, and the percentage went from 31% needing an attoreny well over 86% requiring an attorney to prepare the deed.

Again, I am not the one using percentages, I was asked to provide a list of states requiring the use of an attorney. One can make the case the glass is half full or half empty just like I can say 69% of the country does not require an attorney, but in the heavy timeshare states 86% do in fact require an attorney, unless the buyer or seller is preparing the deed. NO where in my list does it talk about closing companies.

 

[DeniseM]

That's where the confusion comes in, because the info. you sent me seems to be conflicting:

Quoted from Dave H's First PM:

Florida
(Last Verified 02/06)
Must the name and address of person who prepared instrument appear on instrument? Yes. The name and post-office address of the natural person who prepared the instrument or under whose supervision it was prepared must be legibly printed, typewritten, or stamped upon the instrument. See Florida Statute § 695.26
If so, in what manner and where? Upper left-hand corner of first page.
Must the preparer be an attorney? No. However if a title company prepared the instrument, the preparation of the instrument must be incidental to the issuance of a title insurance policy and the there cannot be an extra charge for such services above the authorized title insurance premium. A title company may not charge for its services in preparing title documents if no risk premium is charged and no policy issued and when the services in the absence of a title insurance transaction constitute the unauthorized practice of law. See Preferred Title Services, Inc. v. Seven Seas Resort Condominium, Inc., 458 So. 2d 884 (Fla. 5th D.C.A. 1984), The Florida Bar v. Columbia Title of Florida 197 So. 2d 3 (Fla. 1967) and The Florida Bar v. McPhee, 195 So. 2d 552 (Fla. 1967).

[A document preparation business is NOT a "title company." - DM]

Hawaii
(Last Verified 03/06)
Must the name and address of person who prepared instrument appear on instrument? No.
If so, in what manner and where? Not applicable.
Must the preparer be an attorney? Yes, if the preparer is not a party to the instrument and prepared the document in the State of Hawaii.

[Only applies to deeds prepared IN the state of Hawaii. - DM]

Quoted from Dave H's 2nd pm -

Yes, while in 69% of the country you can prepare deeds, here is my question. The biggest states for timeshare are in no order:

Florida
California
Hawaii
South Carolina
North Carolina
Tennessee
Virginia

Of the 7, only 1, California does not require an attorney. So your 31% odds just went to 86% require an attorney to prepare the deed or be a party to the transaction.

So your first PM says that Florida and Hawaii do NOT require you to use an attorney, and the 2nd pm says that they DO. Since the info. is conflicting, I am hesitant to post it in a sticky.

[Corrected 11/19] Based on the info. you provided, it appears that the following states require you to use an attorney, or a closing company that employees an attorney:

Arkansas
Indiana
Kentucky
Maryland
Mississippi
New York
North Carolina
Ohio
Puerto Rico
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas
USVI
Virginia

Based on the list of 54 states and territories you sent me, when you take out Hawaii and Florida, it appears that 74% actually do not require you to use an attorney or a closing company affiliated with an attorney. I think it's disingenous to say, "Let's only look at 7 states."

 

[Dave H]

Denise:


You have to read and understand the interpretation of the item. Florida, an attorney must prepare the deed, however, a licensed title insuarance agency preparing the deed pursuant to issuing title insurance has an exemption.

So, if Dave the legal document preparer is preparing the deed for Denise the seller and Dave is neither an attorney or a licensed title company preparing the document so they can issue a title insurance policy, then Dave just violated the law.

In Florida, we have a limited exception in preparing documents. If Dave the licensed title company is preparing the same deed above and IS NOT issuing title insurance, then Dave the Title Agent just broke the law.

In your list, you also missed the state of Louisiana. While everyone thinks my job is easy, it is reading and getting the intereptation to the law. Did I ever say it was going to be an easy list, NO. Does one have to look for case law and make decisions based on that absolutely.

I did not review your entire list, I can go thorugh and pick out all of the states that require the use of an attorney, but is that going to change your position on "legal" document prepartation companies?

The one thing I can tell you about the law is it is not as clear cut as you would like it to be. Even in the legal services arena, lawyers disagree on the meanings of laws, thats why we have civil court, so that when 2 lawyers disagree, they stand before another lawyer to see his/her take on it.

In your Florida example, NO is the correct answer. An attorney is not required to prepare a deed, the other party is a licensed title company based on issuing title insurance. Your right, your "legal" document preparation company is not a title insurance company, and if the person there is not a licensed title insurance company nor a member of the Florida Bar, then they are practicing law without a license. How "legal" is that?

on Hawaii, your comment is Must the preparer be an attorney? Yes, if the preparer is not a party to the instrument and prepared the document in the State of Hawaii.

While the list I have given you is a guide, the user still must assure them selves that legislation has not changed. The list is from one of the largest title insurers in the United States. In addition to the list, we have to inquire with State Bars all the time.


Here is the ABA (American Bar Association) exceprt on Hawaii...

Hawaii
Fought & Co., Inc. v. Steel Engineering and Erection, Inc., 951 P.2d 487 (Hawaii 1998)
In drafting the statutes, the legislature expressly declined to adopt a formal definition of the term "practice of law," noting that "[a]ttempts to define the practice of law in terms of enumerating the specific types of services that come within the phrase are fruitless because new developments in society, whether legislative, social, or scientific in nature, continually create new concepts and -9-
new legal problems." Sen. Stand. Comm. Rep. No. 700, in 1955 Senate Journal, at 661; Hse. Stand. Comm. Rep. No. 612, in 1955 House Journal at 783. The legislature recognized that the practice of law is not limited to appearing before the courts. It consists, among other things of the giving of advice, the preparation of any document or the rendition of any service to a third party affecting the legal rights ... of such party, where such advice, drafting or rendition of service requires the use of any degree of legal knowledge, skill or advocacy.
Sen. Stand. Comm. Rep. No. 700, in 1955 Senate Journal. at 661 (emphasis added); see also Hse. Stand. Comm. Rep. No. 612, in 1955 House Journal, at 783.
Similarly, while it has explored the concept's dimensions, this court has never formally defined the term "practice of law."

Why is it that I have to charge more than $100 to prepare documents, because I have to know what is legal for me to do and what is not and I spend thousands every year to be one of the largest direct independent issuers of title insurance. To carry licenses and bonds and fiedlity insurances to meet all the states requirements and operate in a manner that is not only correct but legal does not come cheap. Yet, my closing costs are not that much higher if at all to some of the long term closings people that get referred to on TUG all the time. The funnier part is I write many of those title poicies for outside closing companies as we are fully licensed in the majority of timeshare states.