ANOTHER New provision for points usage

[happyhopian]

I spoke with Owner care this morning about something and it came up about point usage from which contract. In the past I could tell them which contract to take points from or call back after a booking and have them take points. That is no longer allowed. This will create huge problems. For example I have ARP at BC but if they take points from that contract for a 10 month booking at another resort I won't have the points in there for an ARP. OC agent acknowledge that this was a problem they have run into and they have made exceptions for people but here is the other issue. It is based on expiration (soonest expiration used first) which means that it never draws from credit pool unless all other points are used up. So once again, I can't preserve ARP by using 'other' contracts or credit pool because they system is going to take in order of expiration and in most all cases any contract year showing will be less than the expiration of credit pool.


She said this was implemented earlier this year and while she gave me an 'exception on an ARP booking I think this is going to be a problem.

Has anyone else run into this?

 

[CruiseGuy]

First, I thought the new system was supposed to help with this by allowing you to have better control over where the points were pulled from so that you could manage saving points for ARP yourself. Second, I don't see how Wyndham could get away with this. If they start preventing people from being able to use the ARP as specified in the deed by using those points instead of other available points, I think they will be facing some lawsuits for breach of contract. The other thing is that going forward there is no more credit pool though. You will have the points deposit feature which will allow you to move the current use year points to one or two use years from now, and will only be good for that use year. Those points will only be good for standard or express reservations, not ARP, similar to the credit pool. It could still be an issue for those whose contracts aren't all aligned, and those who want to make an ARP reservation late in the use year that is impacted by a standard reservation early in the use year where the points are pulled from the wrong contract.

 

[Avislo]

I spoke with Owner care this morning about something and it came up about point usage from which contract. In the past I could tell them which contract to take points from or call back after a booking and have them take points. That is no longer allowed. This will create huge problems. For example I have ARP at BC but if they take points from that contract for a 10 month booking at another resort I won't have the points in there for an ARP. OC agent acknowledge that this was a problem they have run into and they have made exceptions for people but here is the other issue. It is based on expiration (soonest expiration used first) which means that it never draws from credit pool unless all other points are used up. So once again, I can't preserve ARP by using 'other' contracts or credit pool because they system is going to take in order of expiration and in most all cases any contract year showing will be less than the expiration of credit pool.


She said this was implemented earlier this year and while she gave me an 'exception on an ARP booking I think this is going to be a problem.

Has anyone else run into this?

I ran into this earlier and is real. They did not make any references to exceptions.

 

[uscav8r]

First, I thought the new system was supposed to help with this by allowing you to have better control over where the points were pulled from so that you could manage saving points for ARP yourself. Second, I don't see how Wyndham could get away with this. If they start preventing people from being able to use the ARP as specified in the deed by using those points instead of other available points, I think they will be facing some lawsuits for breach of contract. The other thing is that going forward there is no more credit pool though. You will have the points deposit feature which will allow you to move the current use year points to one or two use years from now, and will only be good for that use year. Those points will only be good for standard or express reservations, not ARP, similar to the credit pool. It could still be an issue for those whose contracts aren't all aligned, and those who want to make an ARP reservation late in the use year that is impacted by a standard reservation early in the use year where the points are pulled from the wrong contract.

The breach of contract is a stretch. They will simply respond that you, as the owner, need to manage your points under the existing policy, which is to use the earliest expiring points first.

I've noticed, however, that there seems to be an inconsistency in this when making multiple bookings in one day when a mix or regular use year and pooled credits are involved. Last year I made two bookings at the same resort/time on the same day. Apparently when the batch processing occurred overnight, the points/pool credits were applied to the bookings in reverse numerical order.

So while the points may be used in the proper order, the reservation number assignment may work backwards, such that the first booking made on a given day is actually the last to be assigned a number.

Anyone else experienced this?


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[paxsarah]

This has been the case for a while:
2016 thread

What we don't know is if we will be allowed more specificity under the new system. It's possible that if the new system automatically uses moved/pooled points first (which it certainly should, since they can't be moved a second time), it would also by default save the regular UY points that could then later be used for late-year ARP. But we don't know for sure.

 

[uscav8r]

I spoke with Owner care this morning about something and it came up about point usage from which contract. In the past I could tell them which contract to take points from or call back after a booking and have them take points. That is no longer allowed. This will create huge problems. For example I have ARP at BC but if they take points from that contract for a 10 month booking at another resort I won't have the points in there for an ARP. OC agent acknowledge that this was a problem they have run into and they have made exceptions for people but here is the other issue. It is based on expiration (soonest expiration used first) which means that it never draws from credit pool unless all other points are used up. So once again, I can't preserve ARP by using 'other' contracts or credit pool because they system is going to take in order of expiration and in most all cases any contract year showing will be less than the expiration of credit pool.


She said this was implemented earlier this year and while she gave me an 'exception on an ARP booking I think this is going to be a problem.

Has anyone else run into this?

This "new" development has actually been an issue since at least early last year in my experience. I was told that the points could not be shuffled between bookings made, even if i called in the same day as when I booked online.


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[CruiseGuy]

The breach of contract is a stretch. They will simply respond that you, as the owner, need to manage your points under the existing policy, which is to use the earliest expiring points first.


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That's absurd. It would mean that I couldn't make reservations for early in a use year because they give me no choice in which points to use. I would have to wait until after the ARP availability of the later reservation. They wouldn't be allowing me to manage my points, they would be taking that capability away. I don't think it's a stretch at all, and it would be easy to demonstrate how this is harmful if they don't make provisions for this situation.

 

[uscav8r]

That's absurd. It would mean that I couldn't make reservations for early in a use year because they give me no choice in which points to use. I would have to wait until after the ARP availability of the later reservation. They wouldn't be allowing me to manage my points, they would be taking that capability away. I don't think it's a stretch at all, and it would be easy to demonstrate how this is harmful if they don't make provisions for this situation.

Absurd? There is no contractual requirement for them to fence off specific points for your convenience. Don't get me wrong; I would definitely love the ability to assign certain points to certain reservations, but there is no contractual clause that requires such a feature AFAIK.

In any case, all of this will eventually become moot as far as expiration dates go. With Wyndham back on the push to align use years to JAN 1 and the new policy that kills the credit pool (which led to most of the disparate expirations anyway), everything will come from the same timeline eventually.

Now the open question will be how they treat Deposit Points vs Regular Use Year points for the same timeframe.

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[CruiseGuy]

Absurd? There is no contractual requirement for them to fence off specific points for your convenience.

Sure there is. My deed says I get 13 month ARP at my home resort. I doubt their other rules would hold up against this specifically stated right as long as I had enough other points available at the time of the reservation to allow these points to remain in place for that later ARP reservation. This is considered real estate, and what is written in a deed takes precedence.

 

[ronparise]

Sure there is. My deed says I get 13 month ARP at my home resort. I doubt their other rules would hold up against this specifically stated right as long as I had enough other points available at the time of the reservation to allow these points to remain in place for that later ARP reservation. This is considered real estate, and what is written in a deed takes precedence.

Your deed dosent say that

Your deed is evidence of what you own. How you use it is specified in the trust documents and the owner directory

 

[uscav8r]

Sure there is. My deed says I get 13 month ARP at my home resort. I doubt their other rules would hold up against this specifically stated right as long as I had enough other points available at the time of the reservation to allow these points to remain in place for that later ARP reservation. This is considered real estate, and what is written in a deed takes precedence.

They are only contractually bound to give you the 13 month ARP, as long as you have enough of such points at the time the window opens and have not burned them on a different booking.

But as I said, this is a short term issue as you will no longer have wonky expiration dates (such as December 29th, while your regular use year expires December 31) due to a credit pool situation.

It even sounds like you may be able to specify what points to use for a given reservation once the new system goes online. But that remains to be seen.


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[happyhopian]

Absurd? There is no contractual requirement for them to fence off specific points for your convenience. Don't get me wrong; I would definitely love the ability to assign certain points to certain reservations, but there is no contractual clause that requires such a feature AFAIK.

In any case, all of this will eventually become moot as far as expiration dates go. With Wyndham back on the push to align use years to JAN 1 and the new policy that kills the credit pool (which led to most of the disparate expirations anyway), everything will come from the same timeline eventually.

Now the open question will be how they treat Deposit Points vs Regular Use Year points for the same timeframe.

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I called OC after reading your post. According to them they do not care if the use year is January 1st but they are reinforcing the policy that there cannot be multiple use years in an account. If you don't tell them which to consolidate, then they will choose at some unannounced time (when they feel like it . Mine are not january and she said that was fine as long as they only have one use year in the account.

 

[happyhopian]

They are only contractually bound to give you the 13 month ARP, as long as you have enough of such points at the time the window opens and have not burned them on a different booking.

But as I said, this is a short term issue as you will no longer have wonky expiration dates (such as December 29th, while your regular use year expires December 31) due to a credit pool situation.

It even sounds like you may be able to specify what points to use for a given reservation once the new system hours online. But that remains to be seen.


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I agree to this point - I don't want to use those points. I certainly have the right to decide which points I use don't I. Where does it say I do not. If I have 2 100's and 5 20's in my pocket no one can tell me which one to pay with. That is the rub. If I have a contract for the sole purpose of ARP at a specific resort then I do not ever want that contract used for anything other than that resort. That is totally under my control but again "their system won't allow that anymore because of problems this created with the system generating additional points". I don't know what that means but that's what she said. She also said that they are aware of the problem and that they are working to resolve it. I asked this afternoon when I called back from reading your post, "is this going to be fixed in the new system" and she said "no guarantees anything will be fixed in the new system but we have been told that ARP is a contractual right and that we will work with you to be sure you can use ARP even if the system used your points for another reservation. This confused me a lot so I tried to get clarification. She said that honestly she wasn't sure what they were going to do going forward but for now it is not a 'one time exception' as I was told. She said that they have been told to look back at all the points usage from the ARP contract in question and as long as the points were not used for ARP already AND as long as there were points of any kind in the account, then they would honor the ARP contractual right (yes contractual right was her word). This is another HUGE mess!!!


But my reason for this post was two fold. If I put 500,000 in credit pool for next year, I would typically want to use my CP points first and then roll any remaining points from next year's use year contracts into the next credit pool BUT since it takes shortest expiration first I am not sure I can do that which means it might use all my contract points first and then leave my credit pool last...and of course I cannot re-credit pool the credit pool.

 

[Avislo]

Cannot put anymore points into the Credit Pool, that was made effective immediately. Now you can only move points forwards, not backwards into the current use year and you get to put them into one of the next 2 years use year. Once in the new use year, they cannot be moved forward again.

 

[paxsarah]

Cannot put anymore points into the Credit Pool, that was made effective immediately. Now you can only move points forwards, not backwards into the current use year and you get to put them into one of the next 2 years use year. Once in the new use year, they cannot be moved forward again.

As far as I'm aware, they cut off 2019 points from being credit pooled, but one can still credit pool 2018 points before the new system goes live.

 

[Avislo]

As far as I'm aware, they cut off 2019 points from being credit pooled, but one can still credit pool 2018 points before the new system goes live.

When I called earlier and explored that option, it was no for me. If it is yes for others, then I would suggest get it done quickly.

 

[Avislo]

As far as I'm aware, they cut off 2019 points from being credit pooled, but one can still credit pool 2018 points before the new system goes live.

When I called earlier and explored that option, it was no for me. If it is yes for others, then I would suggest get it done quickly.

 

[am1]

What happens to the ones that have had their accounts suspended and have not been able to credit pool their points?

 

[CO skier]

I certainly have the right to decide which points I use don't I. Where does it say I do not.

Page 336 of the Club Directory.

"If you have ... or Pool Credits (see page 341) in addition to your Regular Use Year Points, the points with the earliest expiration date will be used first, based on your travel date. Then they are deducted in the following order:

• Regular Use Year Points
• Pool Credits"

 

[Bigrob]

As with most things, there are work around for this, although they can be cumbersome. You can make reservations using all the points, so that the points you want used first for a non-ARP reservation are "up next". Then cancel the reservations you made with the points you wanted to preserve for ARP. Clunky and requires planning on your part; but effective to preserve the ARP since the points go back as regular use year points with their ARP intact.

 

[Bigrob]

When I called earlier and explored that option, it was no for me. If it is yes for others, then I would suggest get it done quickly.

Credit pooling is still active for 2018. Recommend you call back prior to the system going live.

 

[raygo123]

As with most things, there are work around for this, although they can be cumbersome. You can make reservations using all the points, so that the points you want used first for a non-ARP reservation are "up next". Then cancel the reservations you made with the points you wanted to preserve for ARP. Clunky and requires planning on your part; but effective to preserve the ARP since the points go back as regular use year points with their ARP intact.

You mentioned booking a "non ARP reservation first. Is that due to the fact that once points used for ARP, if returned can no longer be used for ARP? I thought I read that somewhere, but can't find out where.

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[CCdad]

You mentioned booking a "non ARP reservation first. Is that due to the fact that once points used for ARP, if returned can no longer be used for ARP? I thought I read that somewhere, but can't find out where.

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My interpretation of Bigrob's reply:

Let's say you've got both 2018 Regular and Credit Pool points and it's too early to use the Regular points for the ARP you want (say 2018 week 52). But you want to book 2018 Easter week at Bonnet Creek, a non-ARP resort.

If you really want to preserve your 2018 ARP, we're suggesting you:

1. Book a 2018 reservation(s) using the 2018 Regular points at any resort right now (example - book at the Grand Desert from Jan 1 - Feb 23, 2018).
2. At the ten month window, book the 2018 Easter week for Bonnet Creek using your Credit Pool points.
3. When it's close to the middle of November, cancel the 2018 Grand Desert reservation that used your 2018 Regular points. This should return 2018 Regular points with the ARP privilege still intact.
4. In late November, book your ARP for 2018 week 52 at your home resort.

I hope this provides some specific examples for how to preserve your ARP, but still book an earlier 2018 non-ARP reservation without burning your 2018 Regular [ARP] points.

 

[OutSkiing]

I
But my reason for this post was two fold. If I put 500,000 in credit pool for next year, I would typically want to use my CP points first and then roll any remaining points from next year's use year contracts into the next credit pool BUT since it takes shortest expiration first I am not sure I can do that which means it might use all my contract points first and then leave my credit pool last...and of course I cannot re-credit pool the credit pool.

Under the new 'points deposit' system, points carried forward to a future year will expire first, because they cannot be carried forward again. Assuming all contracts are aligned to the same month, I cannot see how they could do anything but take the advance deposit points first for non ARP reservations. Leaving the regular use year points for ARP use in this example.

Bob