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Account review email [Accts. suspended]

Discussion in 'Wyndham Vacation Resorts' started by bobdaz, Aug 24, 2016.

  1. happyhopian

    happyhopian Guest

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    The CO Skier, you are not watching ebay where there are dozens. I suggest you go there right now to look at the units renting for less than $100 per room/per night (comparing to hotel cost, not per night cost. The cost of a prime season, 7 night, 3 bedroom presi @$6/1k is $2,310 but I can't find one listed over $1,800 - but look at the completed auctions and the red week rental rates. The market will tell you what this is worth, not what Wyndham is setting the prices. If the prices from Wyndham (no discount) go up, then the question is will the buyer adjust or go elsewhere. Too many options for immediate price increase IMHO but that will make it less crowded when I go. However that will also reduce the number of leads and potential buyers for the sales teams. When that happens Wyndham will adjust. That I am willing to guarantee :)

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Bon...614404?hash=item1a29cf8084:g:ydQAAOSwjDZYmyMB

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Bon...178098?hash=item33c8fa4972:g:YNMAAOxy2YtRvOFw

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-BON...152220?hash=item25d4831c5c:g:NB4AAOSwA3dYfme0
     
  2. happyhopian

    happyhopian Guest

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    As we all continue to debate this let us remember why Alfred Hitchcock rarely showed the murder scene...he knew the combined imaginations of the audience were much better than anything he could put on the screen. We have moved the accounts suspended discussion fully to a purely speculative thread on 'how bad' new rules are going to be simply based on one person's comment in another thread that a 'upgrade' box will be placed on the new website. How silly we will all feel if the website doesn't implement these issues.

    I still take the position that any changes will be much less invasive on VIP benefits than has been proposed. I believe that Wyndham is MUCH more interested in sales profits than they are owner satisfaction. And for many reasons sales will be hurt with less leads (rental guests) and fewer VIP benefits to the point of 'possible' automatic upgrades or wait list bookings while they hold your points (RCI method) for which there will be little incentive to upgrade and a slew of units placed on the resale market---again all speculation on my part but I'm a business guy who looks a profits, exactly where I think Wyndham is looking.

    I'm glad were talking about all this but i think we should all remember that we are throwing darts in the dark, my respected friend Ron included. None of us 'know' what coming. Only speculation based on many different levels of knowledge and of course Robert/avisio keen mind reading skills :)
     
    dagger1 likes this.
  3. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

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    Jim, there never was a good reason to buy a VIP ownership. Thats why the salesman have to lie and cheat their way to a sale
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  4. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

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    Im sure about a couple of things. Wyndham dosent like that some of us are using the product for "commercial purposes" and they know that cancel/rebook/upgrade for VIP discounts is a "manipulation of the program rules to gain an unfair advantage" and that the discount is what makes commercial renting profitable.

    exactly what they might do is not known so anything we guess is just that; a guess, but I think we all agree something is gonna happen. The question is; Will what they do to attack commercial renting mean the end of VIP discounts for everyone or just the commercial rental operations.
     
    vacationhopeful likes this.
  5. vacationhopeful

    vacationhopeful TUG Member

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    Ft Lauderdale Beach, Wyndham Santa Barbara, Wyndham Royal Vista, Wyndham Sea Gardens, Wyndham Shawnee (Poconos)
    Novice guests "fall" into being buyers .... they are impressed with the condo size and options to cook verses takeout 3 meals a day... from the moment they walk into the sales office and at TOURED into a condo.

    And Wyndham sales prospects are put up in hotels (for multiple years now) and tour the resort property with sales staff .. showing them the pools and sample units. And the buyers SEE the happy families (and these MUST be owners to be staying there and are told ONLY owners can stay here) and the 'sample' condo apartments. Comments about YOUR family's next vacation could be staying HERE for about the same price as a motel room. And if they RENT from Extra Holidays ... and BUY points, they are comparing the rental cost to the MFs cost ... without figuring on 10 or more years of interest & principal on the loan.

    And why does Wyndham try to get the onsite guests' sales tours done within the first days of a 7 night stay owners' stay... to eat into the rescind window ... families coming home spend the first few days at home, getting caught up on those chores and chaos. Looking at paperwork, reviewing the fine print and analyzing the TRUE cost ... wow, the rescind window has closed. Or the onsite offices are generally CLOSED on WED, THU and FRI.
     
    dagger1 likes this.
  6. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

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    They will either fold or find reservations that are profitable without a discount...

    Your comparison with worldmark is a good one.. sure its easier for a regular worldmark owner to get one of those hard to get reservations, so thats a good thing. but its just as easy (or difficult) for the megarenters to get one too. and there is still a lot of renting going on. Someone on Facebook pointed me to the Portland Craigslist where there were (at the time of his post) nearly 100 ads for worldmark rentals

    The big difference between the systems (when used for a rental business) has always been the discounts. It has always been more difficult to make money using worldmark as the basis for a rental business, compared to Wyndham. But large scale commercial renting still happens in the worldmark system. so heres my prediction. If Wyndham makes it impossible to make money with a Club Wyndham ownership. I see the megarenters migrating to Worldmark
     
  7. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

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    I could never make Bonnet creek work, even with discounts. too much supply and too much competition. but there are other time and places where the supply/demand ratios are such that there are profits to be had, even without the discount.
     
  8. Sandy VDH

    Sandy VDH TUG Review Crew: Expert TUG Member

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    Yes but your now you will be forced to burn through multiple GCs just to hold the 10 units you are allowed to hold at a single resort for a single period of time. Now you will also have to pay a GC just to keep it active, then another when you find the renter and substitute the HOLDER guest for the REAL guest. Each rental just went up $100 period. So that drives prices as we pass that through to clients. I'm sure you don't want to lose 990 a year, (10 X $99) from your current rental activity on a given week or weekend.
     
  9. paxsarah

    paxsarah TUG Member

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    I don't know how long it's been since you stayed at a Disney moderate resort, but there are barely more than a few nights per year in value season where any moderate room can be had at rack rate below $200. If you can find a 25% discount, that's $150+ per night.
     
  10. Bigrob

    Bigrob TUG Member

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    The OP was quoting a "per bedroom" price. Although it isn't quite linear (a 1BR is not half the cost of a 2BR).
     
  11. paxsarah

    paxsarah TUG Member

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    Moderates are single hotel rooms, so that is per bedroom. With tax, you can barely squeak in below $200 into any of the moderates without a discount, and it's higher for about 90% of the year.
     
    famy27 and ronparise like this.
  12. happyhopian

    happyhopian Guest

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    I don't mean to be argumentative but you called me out on not having my facts straight. Since I haven't checked in a couple of months I did a google. There are 12 comparable options on disney property in the range I state. 8 are Disney resorts. In addition to being a former Disney corporate suit, I do spend about 4 weeks a year here and 25% discounts are available from the right locations all year except christmas, thanksgiving, spring break and peak summer. Now no your not going to get the poly or the contemp but no one able or willing to spend that money is shopping ebay for a BC rental either. My point is what will BC / ebay renters find comparable and what the market options are. If I found this in a few minutes I am certain Wyndham has these reports at least weekly.

    Also I didn't calculate tax because I also didn't factor in the cost of the guest certs in the rental fees. I also didn't factor in the $20 per day parking cost or the $5 each way - per person - cost on BC bus service. I still stand with my initial position: the competition is tight as it is in the current BC rental market pricing structure.


    $160 the Wyndham Grand right next door https://www.wyndhamhotels.com/wyndh...us=25&brand_code=WY&PriceFilter=0-2147483647&

    $160 Hilton on Disney Property https://www.expedia.com/Orlando-Hotels-Hilton-Orlando-Buena-Vista-Palace-Disney-Springs-Area.h18591.Hotel-Information?chkin=4/20/2017&chkout=4/21/2017&rm1=a2&regionId=6034120&price=2&sort=recommended&hwrqCacheKey=c96636b5-95b7-4f0d-8ede-ef75277844c7HWRQ1492745395658&vip=false&c=a96f37a6-d24b-42ac-bc5a-876f5dba13b9&&exp_dp=169&exp_ts=1492745397229&exp_curr=USD&exp_pg=HSR

    $100 on disney resort https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/all-star-music-resort/rates-rooms/

    $100 on disney resort https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/all-star-movies-resort/rates-rooms/

    $100 on disney resort https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/all-star-sports-resort/rates-rooms/

    $143 on disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/art-of-animation-resort/rates-rooms/

    $117 on disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/pop-century-resort/rates-rooms/room-only/

    $190 on disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/caribbean-beach-resort/rates-rooms/room-only/

    $190 on Disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/coronado-springs-resort/rates-rooms/

    $190 on disney https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/port-orleans-resort-french-quarter/rates-rooms/
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  13. happyhopian

    happyhopian Guest

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    You are right. Some at Wyndham might not like it and it is a manipulation of the system, but it is delivering leads to their sales desks and if it stops so will those potential sales leads. T
     
  14. paxsarah

    paxsarah TUG Member

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    I was just talking about the moderates, because that's what you referenced: Caribbean Beach, Coronado Springs, and Port Orleans Riverside and French Quarter. As you can see, you'll barely get under $200 with those - and those baseline prices will be hard to find outside of a few value weeks in late Jan/Feb. I wasn't talking about non-Disney resorts which don't get the full complement of benefits of being on property, nor about the value resorts - both because that's not what you said, and because the level of amenities really doesn't rise to the level of a rental at, say, Bonnet Creek. The competition may be tight, but the moderates do not go for $99-145 a night.
     
    famy27 likes this.
  15. CO skier

    CO skier TUG Member

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    http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...-club-wyndham-plus-program-guidelines.254676/

    Owners will have different opinions of the program changes, but it seems generally agreed in the thread that these changes targeted some of the megarenter manipulations and abuses, and Wyndham is, in fact, interested more in owner satisfaction.
     
  16. bnoble

    bnoble TUG Member

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    For example, the Value resorts have double beds, not queen, and do not even have coffee makers in the room.
     
  17. Jan M.

    Jan M. Guest

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    RCI Grandview Las Vegas and Discovery Beach
    Wyndham is in business for one reason only, to make money. That is the purpose of businesses. Wyndham is not a charity being run for our benefit. We don't own them, we own a product they sell for profit. However is in Wyndham's best interests to throw us a bone once in awhile! Wyndham is interested in owner satisfaction for one simple reason. Happy owners talk up their ownership, unhappy owners go out of their way to tell everyone they meet that they are sorry they ever bought Wyndham and why. Unhappy owners aren't repeat buyers either.

    Most of us pretty much agree that the mega renters will find ways to adapt, raise their prices, find loopholes, etc. Some like Ron they have eliminated and others like am1 they haven't finished with or even gotten around to dealing with yet. I wonder when the changes take place if Wyndham is still seeing the volume of renting from the biggest mega renters if those owners will find their accounts suspended pending review. Wyndham identifies mega renters by the number of guest certificates they purchase.
     
  18. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

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    Do I want to lose that $1000$ no, of course not. But when I look at the numbers Ill do it... A studio at Avenue Plaza is 81000 points In the past I could cancel and rebook and add a guest confirm; so about $350. and I could rent those 4 nights for $1200 profit = $850. Now I should still be able to get the discount (no one can upgrade into a studio) so my cost with the second guest confirm goes to $450 and profit down to $750... still not too bad.. and even if I dont get the discount my cost will be 81 x 6 = $500mf + 200gc = 700 and my profit= $500 It wont be what it was, but it still works.

    The challenge will be to find other weekends or weeks that work as well.

    Remenber too that we are not subject to the 10 nightly limit rule when doing ARP reservations . so in the past I would limit myself to 10 because I was counting on getting the discount at 60 days, at a profit of $750 each x 10 = $7500 now I might make 20 (no discount) at a profit of $10000
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  19. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

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    I think you hit the nail on the head.. Wyndham isnt trying to end all rentals. As you you say they are interested in owner satisfaction, If they can cut down on the complaints they win
     
  20. Avislo

    Avislo Guest

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    Are all of the suspended accounts back in operation now?
     
  21. happyhopian

    happyhopian Guest

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    I completely agree with everything you have said in the last two threads.

    1. This is not going to impact rentals in the way folks expected.
    A. Resale points remain VIP
    B. No limits on ARP just immediate GC's
    C. Discounts still available at 60 days
    D. Cancel Re-book still alive and well.
    I. According to publication and owner care, IF one selects automatic upgrade the reservation would have to be exactly the same so if I am holding two 3 night or a 3 and a 4 and I cancel, it only goes away if someone has exactly that same reservation. According to owner care rep in the past more than 50% of their booking are for 7 days. For me I will just start booking split reservations so that I can have a better chance and I'll continue to book 2 units, as I always have incase the system didn't return the unit. For renters this could get expensive.

    II. Also if you are booking an arp reservation at 13 months on the day and you also book a 1 br, selecting automatic upgrade. Chances are very likely that when you cancel the 3, your 1 is going to upgrade IF - IF their system works as advertised.

    There are lots of things to be happy about here but killing the rental business did not happen here. I see lots of very easy adaptations. Will it cost more money YES. Did they stop it - NO. In the end Wyndham just found a way to make a lot more money and slow down what was a runaway train.
     
  22. happyhopian

    happyhopian Guest

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    I apologize, I didn't mean moderate in terms of disney Moderate and that was a very poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was a moderate resort - not high end, not motel 6 in kissimmee - something that would be comparable to BC (not a condo, but location/stature/amenities) Anything on disney property is going to be a comparable unit to MANY who might be shopping at BC (IMO of course). Even the exterior entry all star and such will be comparable because of the DISNEY amenities that come along for young families (not for everyone mind you). Also if I was shopping Wyndham and I could get a hotel room and the grand next door for with two beds at $150 a night that is very comparable. Disney springs, eh, maybe not.

    But also look at Saratoga on RCI. One bedrooms consistently rent for 100k points plus booking fee so about $800 ( I just looked and there are two available for the summer at 108). Booking a

    I think we help each other here by showing and sharing different points of view. I don't come here for an echo chamber of agreement. In those caases I generally just like a post. I think the changes impact the market in ways that others have not realized (ron and a couple of other being an exception as a very savy business man vs. a personal user). My point in all of this was how does the wholesale price increase effect Wydnham. Will the market (renters) pay more or will they choose other options. The market at disney today is VERY different than it was 15 years ago when BC started. There are literally dozens if not a hundred more options. IMO families shopping EBay for rentals are not looking for top quality - so lets count them out. Yes there are those who just love BC. Count them out. And for those looking for a multi-room layout - price will play less of a factor but there are still other competitive options (hilton/DVC). For those looking for a deal (ie not renting multiple rooms) there will be challenges. I think this is most of the people going to vacation to disney who choose to stay at BC according ONLY to the hundreds of people I have talked with over the years we have stayed here 3-5x a year with our kids. We have some folks that do a lot of renting at BC AM1 being a good subject. I am certain he knows exactly what his market pricing has to be on units and this is where my comments started from.

    If you are a renter at BC you are in a tight market. BC doesn't have enough of a reputation in my opinion to re-set market values. YES for me (and you) I will always stay at BC, even if I'm not an owner. We love it there for dozens of reasons but hoping that the rents 'love' a resort is not the best way to build a successful business. You have to be price competitive.

    Remember where this started. A week a BC in a 3 should cost $2,000 with points @$6 and 1 GC but there are NONE on ebay even listed for over $1800 and most around $1,500. That is where I see the problems for renters, AND for wyndham who relies on them to put new customers in the sales line. We shall see but if I was a renter I would not be selling my business right now. I would be making small adjustments and looking forward to paying Wyndham some more fees on GCs.
     
  23. paxsarah

    paxsarah TUG Member

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    This is actually what we've done for our last few Disney trips. In March for our 1BR at SSR it was 105k + $190 to Disney + $230 to RCI, which comes out ahead compared to 166k at BC for a 1BR + 6 days of parking. But after having stayed at BC and DVC, it's hard to go back to a single hotel room (especially a value resort with double beds) for anything longer than a couple of nights. I'm not even sure how much longer we're going to be able to stand only a 1BR as the kids get closer to teen age, so we'll probably be back at BC in 2BRs before long and skip the RCI 1BRs.

    I think where we do agree is that the renters will probably figure out a way to make it work. If BC becomes unprofitable, they will figure out another resort/event/opportunity that works better for them, and what they may lose in terms of profit margins through these new changes, they will probably make up for in terms of volume. And all of the people who think that these changes somehow protect them against the big bad megarenters are going to find that reservations aren't suddenly wide open with availability for all.
     
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  24. chapjim

    chapjim TUG Member

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    I agree but only if we are talking about someone who has zero points or a relatively small ownership. For someone who found himself with say, 500K or more retail points, upgrading to VIP Platinum could make sense depending on what the owner had in mind.
     
  25. chapjim

    chapjim TUG Member

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    I've done well with 4BR Presidential units during Spring Break. With the new rules, I guess that's over.
     

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