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BellaWyn

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Not a Wyndham Owner but I feel your pain. This in not only rank incompetence but is also pure arrogance on the part of Wyndham.

George
Agree. As Jan stated, it likely could be considered "out of trust" which is potentially legally actionable if the effected owners were to pursue, keeping in mind if it can happen to a few it could happen to a lot more owners.
 

wjappraise

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Your post is an eye opening revelation. The start of the 5th month will begin in just a few days with some people's accounts still being frozen. From following this thread it appears that in their investigations Wyndham uncovered some other glitches in their system they were not aware of and also some input errors. It certainly appears from what people with computer backgrounds have said that they have had more than ample time to fix and reinstate everyone. With the exception of the what I believe to be only a few individuals who are in negotiations with Wyndham over knowingly and repeatedly exploiting glitches. And at this point Wyndham certainly knows exactly who those individuals are and what they have done.

I don't think it is arrogance; I think it is more likely that they are trying to find some way to cover their butts because of the level of their incompetence to maintain an accurate accounting system. It is my understanding that this issue makes them "out of trust" and is their one true Achilles heel. If some smart group of lawyers were to start a class action lawsuit every single owner past and present would be eligible to receive a settlement. But even worse could result in court appointed overseers who might uncover stuff that would get Wyndham into more trouble.

I am wondering if it will take this (or the very real threat of this) to happen for this issue to be resolved. At this point, Wyndham is still getting every penny in maintenance fees from the impacted owners, without having to reconcile the accounts. Do they really have any motivation to expedite this?
 

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December 31 will be when a lot of points expire. Anybody that had had their accounts frozen and since thawed heard anything about the use of points being extended? Even a lost of being able to book for a month would cause owners not to be able to book reservations before the end of the year. There is very little inventory the last 2 weeks of the year as it is. Plus people like to have their plans in place for the holidays as far out as possible.

Changing use years to end at the busiest time of year was never a good idea.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

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Hey- wjappraise & am1,
Your post today - Dec 12 2016- mark this threads passing the 1K / 1000 post number !
and
82,284 views .

I am not sure what else to say as the numbers speak for themselves .
 

am1

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My guess is the thread will get to 2000 and 150 000 views before by the time it is resolved.

Does anyone have any recent updates?
 

wjappraise

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Does anyone have any recent updates?

Nothing of merit to note. I did email acctinfo@wyn.com today to request an update as well as a correction (they realigned my use years to one that I had specifically stated I did not want and the rep indicated an alternate use year was viable). I sent that email this morning, restating what I had told the account rep, the last time anyone contacted me on or about 9/27.

Anyone have any updates since then? That was a LONG time ago.
 

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I was never offered those terms. I was other terms that were not very favorable.

I believe there were other terms but I don't think anyone shared what they all were. So then the difference between the thawed and frozen accounts are that the thawed owners agreed to Wyndham terms.

am1 or others, would you share what terms you did or did not accept? I only had to agree to not add in new contracts. Still no word on my points audit.
 

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I have not had a reply in awhile. I sent in a request to be provided a number I could call from Mexico and elsewhere and have not received a reply. Also after leaving a message about wanting to ARP New Years reservations for next year and getting a call back and being told the reservations were booked I never received the confirmation or see them in my account. I call back in and am told they are not there and at that time have no points that I could use to ARP the reservations. Because of that the rep could not even tell me if the reservations were still available. No reply back on that either and I am sure they are gone but have no way to know for sure. Another few thousand dollars in damages.
 

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am1 or others, would you share what terms you did or did not accept? I only had to agree to not add in new contracts. Still no word on my points audit.

I was never actually given a proposal that would result in my accounts being unlocked. I asked the rep to look into some other issues first and they wanted to speak two weeks ago about their findings. I told them I was going to busy then and they have not not made contact about rescheduling. About 3 weeks since their last contact and at that time they are the ones who wanted to talk to me.
 

wjappraise

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am1 or others, would you share what terms you did or did not accept? I only had to agree to not add in new contracts. Still no word on my points audit.

I believe my terms were the same as most impacted owners who have been open with their reporting of the situation. Basically my terms were:

1. No use of automated software programs commonly referred to as “robots,” or simply “bots”; and/or
2. Abide by any Rules and Regulations as set forth and defined in the current CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Membership Directory, Club Wyndham Plus Trust Agreement and any operative Contracts in which Program Rules and Regulations may be changed, altered or eliminated by WYNDHAM and its affiliates or successor entities in its sole discretion at any time.
3. Not be eligible to convert CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points to pay for maintenance fees;
4. Cannot transfer points from one member number to another member number;
5. Privileges to borrow points suspended as well as ability to pool points beyond available current use year points.

By accepting those terms, I was granted website access to make and cancel reservations as well as add guest certificates. I am allowed to use ARP rights, but must call the special 877 number that goes unanswered. When I leave a message, no return call is made. Emails to the acctinfo@wyn.com are likewise ignored. So, this process has been a JOKE, to put it mildly.

It would be nice if Wyndham would live up to the terms they have promised, beyond just expecting impacted owners to abide by the agreed upon terms.

I would believe that the harm caused by the ineptitude of Wyndham will be quite easy to prove and to numerate, placing a dollar amount on the harm.
 
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Don40

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I believe my terms were the same as most impacted owners who have been open with their reporting of the situation. Basically my terms were:

1. No use of automated software programs commonly referred to as “robots,” or simply “bots”; and/or
2. Abide by any Rules and Regulations as set forth and defined in the current CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Membership Directory, Club Wyndham Plus Trust Agreement and any operative Contracts in which Program Rules and Regulations may be changed, altered or eliminated by WYNDHAM and its affiliates or successor entities in its sole discretion at any time.
3. Not be eligible to convert CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points to pay for maintenance fees;
4. Cannot transfer points from one member number to another member number;
5. Privileges to borrow points suspended as well as ability to pool points beyond available current use year points.
.

If everyone got the same terms this is my opinion on how Wyndham plans on dealing with this years extra points. Bullets 3-5. Basically say use your points this year in Wyndham mind after this year the extra points in the system are gone. (3) no paying maintenance equals no dollars out the trust on potential false points. (4) This was not allowed for years now (some smart person or persons must have found away to do it). (5) No borrowing or pooling eguals (Wyndham is not smart enough or capable to fully account for total points in the system.)

I stated this earlier Wyndham did this intentionally in their design of the system, so they could steal inventory for decades, If you think of sleazy business people timeshare sales people are at the top. Who is running the company a sleazy timeshare sales person from inception. Lack of accounting only mattered when they finally said the total points in the system is X billion and we have X squared billion and Wyndham does not have control of the imaginary points. A simpleton solution is force the excess points into the limited inventory at year end. This accounts for 2016 total points, without Wyndham losing anything financially or having to account for the points. (salesperson solution not accountant solution). The excess points in the system worked, because so many people do not use their points in a given year, not sure if Wyndham has breakage calculation, but must be close to 50% as that is the highest VIP discount. TUG members are the exception not the rule in using points, discounts, learning the system in essence we are the educated few of the user base. Estimated 30% of user base know how to use the system, based on my visits to the sales presentations, the other 70% create so much unused points Wyndham smiles.

Wyndham concern is a few owners have figured out how to get into their magic pool of points which is how they make their quarterly earnings estimate, the beat by a penny quarterly earnings estimate every corporation deals with. This is real reason Wyndham does not want to account for the points.

JMHO
 

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Number 2. Abide by the rules set forth in the member directory. Page 394 talks of "the program is for a member's own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes". If you have a commercial rental business, does that violate this rule, and any possible compensation for damages? I know their has been cases that have been suspended without being a commercial renter, but I thought in most cases the renters have been targeted.

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If they were going to enforce not renting then they should first speak to the sales staff and let them know that is not allowed. Then follow it up with offers to cancel purchases and refund in full to anyone who purchased because they were told they could rent it from liscenced real estate brokers working for wyndham.
Number 2. Abide by the rules set forth in the member directory. Page 394 talks of "the program is for a member's own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes". If you have a commercial rental business, does that violate this rule, and any possible compensation for damages? I know their has been cases that have been suspended without being a commercial renter, but I thought in most cases the renters have been targeted.

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force
 

ronparise

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Number 2. Abide by the rules set forth in the member directory. Page 394 talks of "the program is for a member's own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes". If you have a commercial rental business, does that violate this rule, and any possible compensation for damages? I know their has been cases that have been suspended without being a commercial renter, but I thought in most cases the renters have been targeted.

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I believe that the initial inquiry Wyndham made was looking for larger accounts that had more reservations (and points) than can be justified by the contracts owned. As far as I can tell there are lots of non renters as well as renters that got caught in their net. But there are lots of renters that didn't

But once they had their list of folks with "extra" points they realized that they had caught some of the biggest "commercial" operations and I believe their focus shifted to what to do with them.

You are right to focus on that commercial renting clause. Wyndham really doesn't want commercial renting. Their problem however (and mine) is that there is no definition of "commercial". Is it "for profit" , or is it a certain number of reservations? No one knows. So no one knows whether they are violating the rule or not

Read a little further in the disclosures and you will find the section that if enforced will end the practice of "cancel and rebook" for a discount. End that and they will end commercial renting
 
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raygo123

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I believe that the initial inquiry Wyndham made was looking for larger accounts that had more reservations (and points) than can be justified by the contracts owned. As far as I can tell there are lots of non renters as well as renters that got caught in their net. But there are lots of renters that didn't

But once they had their list of folks with "extra" points they realized that they had caught some of the biggest "commercial" operations and I believe their focus shifted to what to do with them.

You are right to focus on that commercial renting clause. Wyndham really doesn't want commercial renting. Their problem however (and mine) is that there is no definition of "commercial". Is it "for profit" , or is it a certain number of reservations? No one knows. So no one knows whether they are violating the rule or not

Read a little further in the disclosures and you will find the section that if enforced will end the practice of "cancel and rebook" for a discount. End that and they will end commercial renting
Yes, that is also covered in point 2. It comes down to the fact that if Wyndham doesn't like it, they can change anything at anytime for any reason. One may gain flexibility being part of the "club" but being part of the "club" but are subject to an all new set of rules, their rules.

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Richelle

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I believe that the initial inquiry Wyndham made was looking for larger accounts that had more reservations (and points) than can be justified by the contracts owned. As far as I can tell there are lots of non renters as well as renters that got caught in their net. But there are lots of renters that didn't

But once they had their list of folks with "extra" points they realized that they had caught some of the biggest "commercial" operations and I believe their focus shifted to what to do with them.

You are right to focus on that commercial renting clause. Wyndham really doesn't want commercial renting. Their problem however (and mine) is that there is no definition of "commercial". Is it "for profit" , or is it a certain number of reservations? No one knows. So no one knows whether they are violating the rule or not

Read a little further in the disclosures and you will find the section that if enforced will end the practice of "cancel and rebook" for a discount. End that and they will end commercial renting

I think commercial renting actually helps Wyndham's bottom line. Sure the mega renters are competing with the inventory that Wyndham they advertise sites on hotels.com. They also have to pay to manage the server (of pay for a hosted one) that they use for their own internal rental reservation system. However, like Wyndham, mega renters are paying to advertise their inventory as well. If the mega renters are renting out inventory, that is less inventory that Wyndham has to pay to advertise. Also, the mega renters are basically handing Wyndham a potential lead on a silver platter. Wyndham didn't have to pay to advertise to that renter. They didn't have to do any work or pay any money to get that lead. The mega renters are doing all the leg work to get a potential sales lead to them. If that lead buys from Wyndham, do you think the mega renter receives a commission of that sale for doing all that leg work for them? That would be a big fat No. Wyndham is well aware that people rent out their reservation. They are well aware that some people even make a business out of it. I think they've kept their mouth shut for so long, because it was benefiting them. Maybe that changed. Or maybe someone got a bug up their butt and decided they can do better and don't need the mega renters any more. I'm thinking the latter might be the case because the accounts have been frozen for so long. Because the mega renters cannot make new reservations, that's fewer leads coming from them. Maybe they are testing the waters to see if they get better sales by doing their own legwork. I am merely guessing because Wyndham has not given people enough info to do much more then that.


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I have to agree with the "mega renters" helping Wyndham get new blood into their system. I rented on Airbnb (before I found this site) and got pulled in by the parking lot pass people. Offered me the endless vacation certificate. Went back with that a month later to the timeshare and got pulled back in. My wife was ready to sign up then. I got lucky was on this forum before I went back. Told them no thanks and went right to here to ask a few last questions and actually bought resale from someone on here (still waiting for it to close). Now if it wasn't for this site my wife probably would have talked me into buying during that visit.

I am actually head back to that resort in a few hours. Going to do a long weekend up there again. Of course since I don't have my account setup yet I am renting from the same Airbnb guy I did last time. (Reservation made before I found this site). Once I tell the parking lot pass people I am waiting on my resell to close they probably will just back down.
 

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I have to agree with the "mega renters" helping Wyndham get new blood into their system. I rented on Airbnb (before I found this site) and got pulled in by the parking lot pass people. Offered me the endless vacation certificate. Went back with that a month later to the timeshare and got pulled back in. My wife was ready to sign up then. I got lucky was on this forum before I went back. Told them no thanks and went right to here to ask a few last questions and actually bought resale from someone on here (still waiting for it to close). Now if it wasn't for this site my wife probably would have talked me into buying during that visit.

I am actually head back to that resort in a few hours. Going to do a long weekend up there again. Of course since I don't have my account setup yet I am renting from the same Airbnb guy I did last time. (Reservation made before I found this site). Once I tell the parking lot pass people I am waiting on my resell to close they probably will just back down.


Let's see.... you have learned that you can rent at a Wyndham resort without any long term obligation on a pay as you go basis without having to buy anything. And you think folks with that experience will be good prospects for a purchase; knowing that a 231,000 point purchase (enough for a week at most of the resorts) will cost about $40000 plus $1200 a year

I don't think so. Renters are for the most part lousy prospects. They know too much. At least my customers do
 

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Let's see.... you have learned that you can rent at a Wyndham resort without any long term obligation on a pay as you go basis without having to buy anything. And you think folks with that experience will be good prospects for a purchase; knowing that a 231,000 point purchase (enough for a week at most of the resorts) will cost about $40000 plus $1200 a year

I don't think so. Renters are for the most part lousy prospects. They know too much. At least my customers do

Okay good point on that but people will still fall for it. A good high pressure person salesmen will be able to talk them into it. They love to break out their ipad and try to justify how much you save over the next 20 years. Of course they don't tell you how many points etc it will take to book the same type of room they have rented. Kind of worked on me but at least I bought resell instead of directly from them.
 

Sandy VDH

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Once I tell the parking lot pass people I am waiting on my resell to close they probably will just back down.

Nope, they are rewarded by getting people into presentations regardless of their interest or real qualification. You have a pulse, go to a presentation. That is the parking pass people motto.

Just say NO.
 

Richelle

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Let's see.... you have learned that you can rent at a Wyndham resort without any long term obligation on a pay as you go basis without having to buy anything. And you think folks with that experience will be good prospects for a purchase; knowing that a 231,000 point purchase (enough for a week at most of the resorts) will cost about $40000 plus $1200 a year

I don't think so. Renters are for the most part lousy prospects. They know too much. At least my customers do

Well, lets think about that for a moment. How do non-Wyndham owners end up at one of the Wyndham resort hotels?

1. They are on a family vacation with a Wyndham Owner. We often bring extended family with us on vacation. These will likely be lousy prospects because A.) why buy one if John/Jane family member owns one? or B.) They are more in the know, then your average Joe, because the owner lets them in on the dirty little secrets. We do that as well.

2. They were given a reservation by a family member or friend. Same applies as above. Lousy prospect most likely, unless they are family members the owner does not like.

3. The owner rented from the Wyndham rental system, hotels.com, eBay, etc. This is a much better prospect unless they are warned ahead of time about the sales pitch they will be tricked into. Do you warn your renters? Maybe your renters are repeat customers and know what to expect and how to deal with it?

4. Those extra holidays deals where they give you cheap accommodations, dinner, visa/amex gift cards, attraction tickets, etc. in exchange for enduring a 2 hour presentation. Also a good prospect if they are new to it. That's why they have those extra holiday things. The money they spend on the freebies is more then made up in the sale. At least with mega renters, they don't have to give out freebies to get them there.

The mega renters are paying to advertise the rentals and paying the maintenance fees to boot. Free advertising and a little extra profit from the maintenance fees. You know that money is not strictly for that resort. Some goes to Wyndham's bottom line. They make money of the mega renters. Not every renter will buy, but a good salesman can con even some of the most knowledgeable people by skewing the numbers. I wish I would have taken a picture of the ROI graph the guy drew me. It took every cell in my body not to laugh at him. I wish I did laugh at him.
 

Sandy VDH

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Those few rentals I do a year, I always warn them. Family and Friends, they know they come to me. My brother finally went to a presentation to get all the discounts they offered in Sedona. He had such good answers to overcome ever angle the sales guy came at him with, the sales guy asked him if he was a plant from corporate testing them. My brother got a good laugh from that. I taught you well big bro.
 

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There has been a discussion here about "silos" what I call, The right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.. I think that might apply here. You guys may be right that the mega renters actually help wyndham's sales effort, but there are other divisions within the company that havent considered that or dont care. I have been told, in no uncertain terms by folks in the hospitality side of the business, that we mega renters are not liked. And Im absolutely certain that they are looking for a way to limit the practice of cancel, rebook and upgrade for discounts. Their thinking is exactly the same thinking as expressed by co-skier on these boards. It its used to gain an unfair advantage over other owners. And thats something that is expressly prohibited by the rules. And you should know that the discounts are what makes profits possible.

.
 

wjappraise

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Let's see.... you have learned that you can rent at a Wyndham resort without any long term obligation on a pay as you go basis without having to buy anything. And you think folks with that experience will be good prospects for a purchase; knowing that a 231,000 point purchase (enough for a week at most of the resorts) will cost about $40000 plus $1200 a year

I don't think so. Renters are for the most part lousy prospects. They know too much. At least my customers do

That might be true of the actual "mega renter" prospects. However, I think that is true of a small percentage of transactions from the impacted owners toiling under the frozen accounts. Take for example, me. Most of my guests are just that, "guests." They are family and friends who want to use the great facilities that Wyndham has, especially in the US. The majority of my points are exhausted in one trip a year where 70-80 people accompany me and my family to Bonnet Creek. They LOVE the accommodations and some succumb to the parking pass come-on, especially when the reps say "It will help the Wyndham owner, he will get points for your taking the tour." (Side note, I have not received one single point for anyone taking a tour despite dozens of my guests who have taken tours). Other guests travel during the year and stay at Bonnet Creek, Royal Vista, NYC Midtown, Chicago River, Sedona, Glacier Canyon, Panama City and numerous other locations. Some have even purchased, most of those being discovery packages.
 

Richelle

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There has been a discussion here about "silos" what I call, The right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.. I think that might apply here. You guys may be right that the mega renters actually help wyndham's sales effort, but there are other divisions within the company that havent considered that or dont care. I have been told, in no uncertain terms by folks in the hospitality side of the business, that we mega renters are not liked. And Im absolutely certain that they are looking for a way to limit the practice of cancel, rebook and upgrade for discounts. Their thinking is exactly the same thinking as expressed by co-skier on these boards. It its used to gain an unfair advantage over other owners. And thats something that is expressly prohibited by the rules. And you should know that the discounts are what makes profits possible.

.

I do not disagree with you about the left hand and right hand. If the hospitality side of the house doesn't like mega renters, then no one has clued them into why mega renters are actually helping Wyndham's bottom line and therefor, keeping them employed. I do understand that the discounts make the points profitable. I did that math a long time ago. I could not pay my maintenance fees by renting. I couldn't get enough reservations off what I have, to make enough profit to cover it. It seems to me that platinum discount and upgrades is the only way to get make money from your points. Silver or gold are not enough of a discount to make renting profitable enough to be worth the trouble. I could be wrong though. I'm not the skilled renter you are. I'm not skilled at all in fact. :)
 
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