[2012] Deedback Questions

[bogey21]

Just ask the resort if they accept deedbacks. Both resorts handled it themselves at modest (recording fees) to no cost to us. These were Florida resorts not affiliated with any chain.

I think there are two keys here. The first key is that you have to ask. I think many Owners are timid about asking. The second key is that I think your chances of success are better if your Week is at an independent resort rather than one of the chains.

George

 

[bobjans]

Deeding back to original Resort

I had 5 weeks, put them up for sale at TUG; no takers, so I asked my 3 Resorts to take 'm back. I said that I would not pay a single cent for anything anymore, no HOA, no deed-back fees, nothing. They all took it back and I never paid a single cent. I received copy of the new deed back, in their name, as proof. Perfect. Show your teeth and they will cave in. I told them that I was not concerned in the least about any bad credit rating; and indeed I can care less. These rating bureaus mean nothing. Look at how they rate the USA while the government spends 60% more than they receive!

 

[Rent_Share]

I was not concerned in the least about any bad credit rating; and indeed I can care less. These rating bureaus mean nothing. Look at how they rate the USA while the government spends 60% more than they receive!

Being in the Netherlands, damaging your US credit rating created no incentive for your to pay, since they were going to end up with them anyway, the HOA's were wise in taking them back at the lowest possible cost.

A foreclosure on the credit report of a US Citizen can make regular life next to impossible for a US Citizen

 

[sapphire12]

I have had my timeshare for many years (a fixed deeded week) and am approaching retirement. I have called the "Resort" where I own and inquired about deeding back my timeshare only to be told Sure, but you will have to pay three (3) years of maintenance fees since that is approximately how long it will take us to sell the unit. (in the meantime I will not own it, can't use it, but have to still pay for it) Not an ideal situation. If the maintenance fees haven't gotten so out of control and the "new" system with RCI and the trading power system virtually locking you out of units that you could trade into at the last minute I would have tried to keep it. But having your unit being the next to last week in December and then the HOA demanding their maintenance fee on January 1 makes it all but impossible to afford.

 

[theo]

Not ideal, but at least legitimate...

<snip> I have called the "Resort" where I own and inquired about deeding back my timeshare only to be told Sure, but you will have to pay three (3) years of maintenance fees since that is approximately how long it will take us to sell the unit. (in the meantime I will not own it, can't use it, but have to still pay for it) Not an ideal situation. <snip>

I think that this exact response and position from HOA's is likely to become more and more frequent. Certainly, it's not an ideal situation, but just as certainly it's a legally valid, guaranteed and ethical way "out" of your ownership. Many (...most, actually) HOA's won't even consider accepting deedbacks, regardless of the inclusion of additional money to cover the soon-to-be "lost" maintenance fees, so don't rule this exit out.

If you proceed with this, bear in mind that the reason you won't be able to use your week again is that you simply will no longer be the owner. Once the HOA accepts a "deedback", recorded into their name, they are the new owner. While the HOA will undoubtedly try to resell it ASAP, it is not at all unreasonable for a HOA to try to protect themselves (and all the other owners) in the meantime by having collected the monetary equivalent of pre-paid maintenance fees in case a resale takes longer than anticipated.

This apparoach is both less money and a much better guaranty of legitimacy than the uncertainty of dealing with a PostCard "relief" company (PCC), which may very well not take the ownership out of your name at all while they try to resell it. Moreover, if a PCC fails to resell it, the ownership could stay in your name indefinitely, despite the fact that you may have paid them big money. The PCC could also just "disappear" and leave you holding the bag of having paid them, but leaving you still owning the week --- it wouldn't be the first time this has happened.

It's a tough pill to swallow financially, but the HOA deedback route may well be the best way for you to go --- assuming that you can't manage to give it away for free to a new owner here in the TUG "Bargain Deals" forum. Good luck.

 

[timeos2]

Theo - Great analysis and right on. I love the "out of control" fees part of the complaint. Exactly where does that owner get today's items required to operate, maintain and upgrade their resort for the prices of over a decade ago? If the resort is paying more so will the owners. Would they be happy to find 1990's TV's, appliances, those lovely formica counters, etc when they return for a week? What about the carpeting, soft goods, furnishings - what would those maybe 20+ year old items look like today?

If you want the fees from 1995 you'd have to accept 1995 conditions. I doubt many would like that any more then they like higher fees. Pick your poison.

Also sounds like they may have bought to trade. That alone is a MAJOR mistake to make as a timeshare ownership plan. It all too often leads to timeshare ownership disillusionment as we read above.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Out Of Control Maintenance Fees.

Maintenance fees at our dinky points timeshare went so high (& kept on escalating) that we wanted out.

Knowing nobody would ever buy a USA heartland 1BR off-season timeshare unit with excessive fees, we asked the people who answer the phone at the resort if they'd take it back, el freebo.

"Sure!" they said. They even sent fill-in-the-blanks forms for us to send back signed & notarized. We did that & -- WHAP ! -- we no longer owned a dinky points timeshare with outrageous maintenance fees.

When we decided we were done with another timeshare (non-points), we offered it el freebo not to the resort HOA but to the timeshare company, which is still selling club memberships there based on timeshare deeds at its various affiliated resorts. No Thanks, they said, so we offered it as a TUG-BBS bargain giveaway & soon got a taker.

Nothing was wrong with that giveaway timeshare, not even the fees. We just started taking so many Last Call & Instant Exchange reservations at other people's timeshares that we rarely used our own deeded unit. (We rented it out instead -- a good deal for several years, but iffy under current conditions.) So we decided holding on to the ownership was no longer practical. The rest is history.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[GHT]

If sold once, then why can't it be resold?

a BOD / HOA should (imho) only consider whether a potential "deedback" week can likely be resold (or rented out).

How did a timeshare sales person sell it in the first place if it can't be resold (or rented out)!

This is simply a prime example of how the lies that timeshare sales people tell to customers can convince them to buy a timeshare. HOAs and initial buyers have too much honesty to do what timeshare sales people do, which then becomes the main deterrent to reselling a timeshare.

In my opinion, ALL INITIAL TIMESHARE SALES NEED TO BE VIDEO-RECORDED AS EVIDENCE so that the industry can be cleaned up. Resales are so poor because HOAs and owners are not able to lie with a straight face to potential new buyers like the initial timeshare sales people do.

 

[GHT]

If sold once, then why can't it be resold?

a BOD / HOA should (imho) only consider whether a potential "deedback" week can likely be resold (or rented out).

If a timeshare salesperson was able to convince someone to buy the timeshare initially, and probably at a huge initial purchase price, then why isn't that same timeshare worthy of being resold, probably at a much lower price?

It's a rhetorical question. This is why. HOAs and timeshare owners have scrupples. They can't, with a straight face, lie to people to make a sale, like timeshare sales people do.

In my own personal experience, I had timeshare sales people tell me that when I could no longer use my timeshare that I would make back the purchase price by selling it, and that there were lots of reputable resale companies in Florida that would help me sell it, and that if I still could not sell it, then I could always sell it back to the timeshare company that sold it to me.

Initial timeshare sales pitches should be video-recorded as evidence so the industry can be cleaned up. It really needs it.

 

[theo]

A good idea in concept, but...

<snip>In my opinion, ALL INITIAL TIMESHARE SALES NEED TO BE VIDEO-RECORDED AS EVIDENCE....<snip>

I don't disagree for one moment with your assessments and observations regarding lying, deceitful developer sales weasels who, imnsho, are just slimy pond scum who will often say virtually anything to make a sale.

However, a video of the "pitch" would not be an effective or viable solution to the problem. In the end, ONLY the actual written sales contract content holds any sway in a court of law. If verbal claims made by a sales weasel are not also stated in writing within the contract content signed by the buyer, there is simply no leverage for taking action against the sales weasel or the developer, with or without a video recording.

 

[ronparise]

This is why. HOAs and timeshare owners have scrupples. They can't, with a straight face, lie to people to make a sale, like timeshare sales people do.

This is the same way the banks have convinced so many people that they should continue making mortgage payments on their homes when they are thousands (or even hundreds of thousands) under water...

They make it a moral issue. or as you say they lean on your scruples, when they have none

Others in this thread have used the morals card too. suggesting that the debtor should act morally when the bank or hoa or developer does not...Baloney!

The mortgage as well at the condo/timeshare documents provide conditions and they provide consequences in case of default...Ive never seen one that says you will incur the wrath of god, or that you will go to hell if you default

This is not a moral issue, ..As Theo has already said..its the written documentation that is important...read this stuff, know and understand the consequences...consider alternatives, but in the end, if its in your best interest to default...Default

 

[Talent312]

...Initial timeshare sales pitches should be video-recorded as evidence so the industry can be cleaned up. It really needs it.

That would be considered "parol evidence" (prior extrinsic evidence) and as such, its use in contract lawsuits would be prohibited in many states. The rationale is that, prior understandings or agreements should not be considered, since the parties reduced their agreement to writing and ultimately decided to leave them out of the contract.

Thus, when you sign a contract which does not incorporate the oral representations, you effectively waive them and are limited to the 4-corners of the contract. OTOH, post it on U-Tube, and maybe you'll get a few hits.

 

[TUGBrian]

revisiting this thread, I finally updated the deedback article...comments/additions welcome. ill put the update in next weeks newsletter so we have before then =)

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/Timeshare_Deedback.htm

 

[ronparise]

Thanks Brian

 

[Carolinian]

I had 5 weeks, put them up for sale at TUG; no takers, so I asked my 3 Resorts to take 'm back. I said that I would not pay a single cent for anything anymore, no HOA, no deed-back fees, nothing. They all took it back and I never paid a single cent. I received copy of the new deed back, in their name, as proof. Perfect. Show your teeth and they will cave in. I told them that I was not concerned in the least about any bad credit rating; and indeed I can care less. These rating bureaus mean nothing. Look at how they rate the USA while the government spends 60% more than they receive!

You have more leverage to use that type of brass since you are outside the US, and indeed no US credit bureau is going to impact your Dutch credit. For an American, it is a different story. Bad credit can impact lots of things that you might not suspect like your insurance rates.

When I was on my HOA board, we accepted deedbacks, and our members who asked always gave good reasons. Those did not get turned down. Some had lost a job, had a spouse or themselves in poor health, moved outside the area, etc. If someone used your level of brass from outside the US, we would probably have realized that as a practical matter, we had no other realistic choice. However, if a US resident had used that brass, I know that there would have been pushback from at least some of our board members, and I would not have wanted to have to predict which way it would go.

If someone wants to deedback, it is ALWAYS better to give a good reason, not an ''up yours''.

 

[Mel]

I respectfully disagree with an underlying premise of your viewpoint. More specifically, I personally don't think or believe that any HOA / BOD can (...or ever should) make "deedback acceptance" decisions based upon the financial situations, claims, plights, or pleas of individual owners.

Instead, a BOD / HOA should (imho) only consider whether a potential "deedback" week can likely be resold (or rented out). If not, HOA should consider acceptance of deedback only if / when deed is accompanied by pre-payment of several years worth of advance maintenance fees (...a la the common PCC practices). A BOD / HOA is obligated to responsibly consider only what is best for the financial health, condition and overall stability of the resort --- not the financial status or predicaments of individual owner(s).

Stated a bit differently, if an offered week can likley be resold or rented out, by all means just take it back. If it's a week (...voluntarily purchased by its' current owner, I must point out) that likely cannot be easily resold or rented out, then it is the individual owner (not the HOA/BOD) who needs to find a new home for that particuilar ownership ---unless the owner is willing to mitigate HOA risk by agreeing to pre-pay several years worth of maintenance fees as a condition of deedback acceptance.

I don't mean to sound glib or heartless on this point. I know that some people are encountering difficult times. I just plain don't think that HOA's / BOD's can (or should) be expected to be "financial examiners or counselors" for individual owners. That's not their job and it's not what they are there to do. They are there to look out for the overall financial health and condition of the resort and all of the owners therein.

If there were not more fees mounting each year, I would agree with you. But every year that the HOA waits to take the deed back is another year that owner doesn't pay a share of the maintenance for the resort, and another year that other owners are burdened with higher fees.

If the HOA takes the deed back (note they don't have to forgive any past fees), they still won't get those fees, but the HOA then owns the week, and is entitled to use it however they wish - allow another owner to use it for fees only, rent it out... If the HOA owns the week, it can be placed into a rental pool immediately, if not most resort rules dictate when the resort can assume control of an individual use week.

The HOA board has a fiduciary responsibility to the owners as a group. Thus they must consider on an individual basis whether the decision to take a deed is in the interest of the owners. If the owner of that week is unable to pay the fees, they won't be paid - can't get blood out of a stone. If the owner simply doesn't want to pay the fees, they can get a judgement against that owner, and are more likely to recover those fees.

e.bram - this is where the HOA has room to treat owners differently, as long as there is a policy. If the owner shows there is no way for them to pay the fees, the resort takes the week. If he cannot show an inability to pay the fees, they set policy to allow a deedback only with 2 years fees paid up front (or whatever other condition they wish to set), and enforce that upon all who cannot show inability to pay.

The courts are open to ALL citizens(residents)of the USA and with the amount on money involved you can kick attorney(if one is dumb enough to get involved) ass easily by yourself(it is called pro se). Courts and law schools will help pro ses.(in the northeast anyway) I never been to Idaho and am not familiar with it's legal system.

You can take your case to court, but that doesn't mean you will win, if you don't have a strong case. Resorts are required to treat owner equally, which does not always mean "the same." Already they don't treat owners equally, because they each get to reserve different weeks, and at most resorts the tax portion of the maintenance fee is not divided evenly. As long as the resort has a policy (which could be voted on by the membership), and enforces that policy equally, they can in fact treat owners differently. That's part of the premise of having an HOA board - they are elected to represent the members, and make decisions on their behalf, and they have the legal authority to do just that.

 

[ronparise]

It is a matter of determining those who can't versus those who won't pay, ultimately the HOA will have too spend the money to foreclose on those that can't so it makes sense to all owners to accept the low cost deed back from those who cannot pay. The problem is that some people in the won't category are less than forthright in their allegations of financial hardship.

Having a consistent policy of requiring a sworn affifavit of insolvency would allow the HOA able to make a distinction between accepting or rejecting a deedback

IMHO - YMMV

The financial condition and other circumstances of the seller should have no bearing on the hoas decision. All that matters is whats best for the hoa and the owners at large

All resorts will do a deed "take back" , usually called a foreclosure if an owner is not paying their maintenance fees. If the choice they are presented with is either a "deed back" or a "take back" Im not paying my fees any longer, the obvious best choice for all concerned is the deedback.

The problem of course from the sellers point of view, is making that "take it or else" presentation and making it believable

I can conceive of circumstances where the resort is better off not accepting deed backs or foreclosures and just allowing defaulting owners to remain in default, but I think that would be a really special case

 

[MaryH]

IPV may accept deedback

Island Park Village Resort in ID may accept deedbacks but it is on a case by case basis for a fee less than 1 year mf. They have an active program to resell to existing owners at set prices according to season and size.

Can they accept deedback form some owners and not others?

Their management company is Trading Places and rents excess inventory on their sell off list, sometimes for less than MF.

 

[timeos2]

Island Park Village Resort in ID may accept deedbacks but it is on a case by case basis for a fee less than 1 year mf. They have an active program to resell to existing owners at set prices according to season and size.

Can they accept deedback form some owners and not others?

Their management company is Trading Places and rents excess inventory on their sell off list, sometimes for less than MF.

The rule is one owner cannot be treated differently than another (no benefit such as a deed back can be offered to one and not another). But they can (and should) have a set of criteria that applies such as fees current, no past collections, application between dates X to X, whatever. As long as those are applied equally to all owners then they can accept one but reject another. But if they had a date range for the request, as an example, that some met and some missed then it is OK to reject those that missed the cutoff. It isn't as easy as it sounds by saying "it applies to all".