[ 2011 ] True Cost of Points From Wyndham [2011]

[MichaelColey]

I think one miss on the calculations is the assumption that ALL of the owners points were purchased from the developer.

If you use creative ways to hit 1 million points (PIC two 3BR Gold Crown Red weeks, requalify a previous purchase, and a minimal developer purchase) then buy a larger number of resale points, you might hit the breakeven point much sooner. You get your full Platinum VIP discount on all of your points, so the cost is distributed over a larger number of points.

Of course the huge risk there is that Wyndham can (and probably will, based on history) change the rules numerous times along the way.

I still wouldn't do it, but I sure do appreciate all the VIP owners out there who rent out their points. For not much more than the MFs, you can rent from a VIP owner and get the most important VIP Benefits without being stuck with a huge upfront expense, risk, and ongoing commitment.

 

[bnoble]

I think one miss on the calculations is the assumption that ALL of the owners points were purchased from the developer.

Nope. The one I mentioned above included PIC. Requalification has less leverage than PIC does, because (usually) you need to buy on a 1-1 basis to match your requal (and can't negotiate the price down on that, either). Plus, I don't think you'd find a sales office that would write a deal to do both PIC and Requal at once without bumping up the minimum purchase requirement. They seem to use the same set of rules to exclude things that I would use to cross over into "maybe it pays."

And, even then, you still would need to get discounts and upgrades on almost every single booking---which means deep offseason travel, or traveling to drastically over-supplied areas. And, in those cases, you can probably do just as well with exchange (with non-Wyndham assets) or Last Call-like mechanisms as you could playing the VIP discount game.

 

[MichaelColey]

But, for instance, if you are Platinum VIP for the "minimum" upfront investment and you have an additional 10 million points that you bought resale, you can get the Platinum discount on the full 11 million. Someone who did that could recoup his upfront costs quite a bit quicker than someone with only 1 million points. (Also, there's some cap on the number of contracts you can have in an account, so my example might not even be possible.)

I still think it's a questionable and risky venture, though.

 

[bnoble]

Most regular humans (you know, folks who can't be in Orlando for umpty-seven consecutive weeks) could not use that much vacation time. An account that large quickly pushes into "not really plausible" territory.


I suppose you could try to rent it, but I still bet the ROI on a resale would be better because the basis cost is so low, and the downside risk of VIP rules changing drastically is huge---in particular, tracking source of points *within* an account, and only extending VIP benefits to those from a direct purchase.

 

[BellaWyn]

Regular Humans

Most regular humans (you know, folks who can't be in Orlando for umpty-seven consecutive weeks) could not use that much vacation time. An account that large quickly pushes into "not really plausible" territory

This is really the key to the whole "To-VIP or Not-to-VIP" argument And, it's WHY VIP doesn't crunch in the numbers as John is so happy to keep reminding everyone. Regardless of HOW VIP is obtained (inherited, grandfathered, combo-purchase, etc) all the Dominoes have to fall correctly to get ANY reasonable ROI, if EVER with a VIP purchase. It's just isn't plausible for the "regular human" to own that many points or risk the benefits disappearing.

That being said..... the way I read AM1's response is in reply to John's statement that it's IMPOSSIBLE to make it happen. He merely said "you are wrong" to the ABSOLUTE posturing that it can't be done! Which, for the "regular humans" is without question TRUE! It can't be done! But it IS being done by the "not-so-regular-humans" who chose to step out of the box to make it work. Therefore, the absolute no longer exists.

The NORM is still accurate and valid. VIP is a marketing ploy and Wyndham banks (over and over and over) on sucking uneducated buyers into that trap. I do NOT advocate purchasing developer or suggesting that it makes any sense to do so! Most VIP owners don't even understand how to adequately eek out the smallest return with the benefits. Another thing Wyndham banks on and is glad to walk away with your monies because of the high probably of this happening.

But what I cannot agree with is the posturing that it is an absolute impossibility that those rare "not-so-regular" VIP owners can obtain an eventual ROI (in whatever lifetime makes sense to them). If, in fact that is happening, especially if it's in a reasonable amount of time, there is no way in hell those people are going to offer up their numbers. They've found a way to make it work and they are NOT going to share the details, especially in a public forum. It would be like a day-trader giving up all their investment secrets.

There is still NO QUESTION that for Regular Humans purchasing VIP is financially imprudent. If you are a newbie or an existing owner and Wyndham is enticing you to do this, don't. It makes no financial sense. Buy resale, learn the system, READ THE DIRECTORY and go on vacation!

But if it were a cut and dried ABSOLUTE that it can't be done then there wouldn't be "umpty-thousands" of threads rolling around TUG on this very issue. The main point is IT CAN'T BE DONE BY REGULAR HUMANS. Personally, I don't have time to be anything OTHER than "regular" and am happy to stay in that box.:whoopie:

 

[rrlongwell]

I think you are right, this discussion, I think, is rapidly evolving into whether or not using rentals can be made a profitable enterprise within the Wyndham System. If true, I think it is a very valuable addition to the Tugs threads. However, if you are a potiental owner with no current interests in Wyndham Timeshares, or only have a couple of contracts, the investment, retail or wholesale for the purpose of renting them out probably makes no sense what-so-ever. In the current market, at best you will break even and more than likely loss money. If you are looking at enterinig or expanding your rental inventory, then this is a very interesting discussion. I sense you are right, the ones doing it successfully (if any) are probably not sharing. It would be great if they did so but not real likely.

 

[Sandy VDH]

Fact 1 ) VIP is better than Non VIP

Fact 2) Purchasing VIP today from Wyndham is NOT worth it, not even close to being worth any VIP benefits that you get.

All here on TUG have done the Cost Benefit analysis. Save your money and just buy more points resale. You can buy far far more reale points for far less than you can ever obtain in discounts/upgrade from your overpriced VIP status paid with big $$$ and only directly available from Wyndham.

I am VIP platinum and do really like it, but I got in the back door way, with fixed weeks conversions, PIC weeks and an equity trade (to eliminate a huge SA from hurricane Wilma). I insisted they write VIP platinum as part of the contract, which they did. But this was 4 - 5 years ago already. I don't even know if you can get VIP that way anymore.

Even via the back door way I had to think hard to decide if I wanted to pay for the right to have access to VIP Platinum. I nearly decided NOT to, but in the end did.

I figure I had paid $22K 'all in' total to get VIP (OK $9K were sunk funds, original timeshare purchase before I found TUG. Can't really do much about that. Consider it lesson learned fees). Plus an additional $13K for purchase of 3 Wyndham fixed weeks (low resale, one unit was for only a $1), convert fixed to points, PIC other non-Wyndham weeks, equity trade to avoid huge SA and actually purchase 160K points from Wyndham. So my only direct Wyndham purchase of 160K yielded me a VIP Platinum account.

 

[rrlongwell]

Fact 1 )

Do I understand correctly, you bought at least one fixed week (not retail), converted it to points and got VIP credit for the points?

 

[Sandy VDH]

Do I understand correctly, you bought at least one fixed week (not retail), converted it to points and got VIP credit for the points?

Basically yes, but timing is everything.

Here is what I did...
mid 1990s I bought Santa Barbara retail (pre Fairfield/Wyndham, as Pompano properties where developed by different group).
late 1990s I inherited/purchased resale 3 Fixed weeks (at bargain prices), by this time they are now all just part of Wyndham (named Fairfield then), got them all deeded in my name, then convert to points.
mid 2000s PIC 2 weeks, did equity trade on Santa Barbara (big SA due, which I avoided), purchased retail 160K. Got plus partners, got VIP Platinum written into contract.

Problem is they have changed the rules NOW. Back in mid 2000 they changed the rules. Which is why I thought timeline was important point to add.

 

[timeos2]

Basically yes, but timing is everything.

Here is what I did...
mid 1990s I bought Santa Barbara retail (pre Fairfield/Wyndham, as Pompano properties where developed by different group).
late 1990s I inherited/purchased resale 3 Fixed weeks (at bargain prices), by this time they are now all just part of Wyndham (named Fairfield then), got them all deeded in my name, then convert to points.
mid 2000s PIC 2 weeks, did equity trade on Santa Barbara (big SA due, which I avoided), purchased retail 160K. Got plus partners, got VIP Platinum written into contract.

Problem is they have changed the rules NOW. Back in mid 2000 they changed the rules. Which is why I thought timeline was important point to add.

Things were completely different in the late 90's and early 2000's when you could use inexpensive (though far from as inexpensive as today) resale points to gain access to VIP status. No longer possible. Yet even then I couldn't make the case for e en a 10 year payback on VIP and the benefits have been gutted since that time. Paying today, as mere humans, makes zero financial sense (but you do get to be called VIP if that matters to you).

On, letting cat from bag, many check in lines at Wyndham now say VIP / RCI so if you come in as RCI trade or rental you are VIP! Discovered that at our last cheap RCI rental for Wyndham - saved big over using points and got VIP treatment. Not bad, worth every penny of $199/7 days! Whoops, shouldn't say that in the open I suppose....

 

[rrlongwell]

Then again, at least one (National Harbor) has a VIP Check-In, but will not wait on the VIP guest until all of the non-VIP guests are checked in, even the ones that come after you.

 

[rrlongwell]

Basically yes, but timing is everything.

Here is what I did...
mid 1990s I bought Santa Barbara retail (pre Fairfield/Wyndham, as Pompano properties where developed by different group).
late 1990s I inherited/purchased resale 3 Fixed weeks (at bargain prices), by this time they are now all just part of Wyndham (named Fairfield then), got them all deeded in my name, then convert to points.
mid 2000s PIC 2 weeks, did equity trade on Santa Barbara (big SA due, which I avoided), purchased retail 160K. Got plus partners, got VIP Platinum written into contract.

Problem is they have changed the rules NOW. Back in mid 2000 they changed the rules. Which is why I thought timeline was important point to add.

The inherated portion of the fixed weeks is probably what made the properties VIP eligable points. Thanks for the info.

That raises an interesting thought for Ron on a different post. If he were to lease a VIP account from someone who no longer wants it under a lease agreement where one of the terms of the agreement is that it is willed to him when the person passes on, then files a power of attorney for use of the account until the Estate is probated, would that give him his VIP status under the Wyndham rules?

 

[learnalot]

The inherated portion of the fixed weeks is probably what made the properties VIP eligable points. Thanks for the info.

That raises an interesting thought for Ron on a different post. ...

I think what made this possible was that they used to be much more generous qualifying resale for VIP - back when it was Fairfield.

On the other hand, if any loophole might exist at the moment, I imagine that discussing it at length in an open forum is probably a good way to get the loophole closed. Some things are better suggested privately. Besides... Ron's a smart guy.

 

[ronparise]

The inherated portion of the fixed weeks is probably what made the properties VIP eligable points. Thanks for the info.

That raises an interesting thought for Ron on a different post. If he were to lease a VIP account from someone who no longer wants it under a lease agreement where one of the terms of the agreement is that it is willed to him when the person passes on, then files a power of attorney for use of the account until the Estate is probated, would that give him his VIP status under the Wyndham rules?

I think it would...The issue for the owner/seller is: can he trust his seller/me to pay the maintenance fees, until he dies? I wouldnt do it so I have trouble asking someone to do it for me.

 

[ronparise]

Besides... Ron's a smart guy.

Fooled another one

 

[Sandy VDH]

The inherited portion of the fixed weeks is probably what made the properties VIP eligible points. Thanks for the info.

My parents gave me their 1 week to manage/merge. It was a fixed week NOT in points. It was just after Fairfield took over our developer Vacation Breaks. So the inherited part was not enough to even make VIP.

So I think it was not inherit that did it, but was timing. Which is why I pointed out the timelines. Things have way changed since I did that whole convergence into a single account.

Vacation Breaks (VB) is were many south FL Properties originated from (FL prop history - Santa Barbara, Sea Gardens, Royal Vista, Palm-Aire, Star Island, all VB's, VB had just signed an w/II when Fairfield came in and bought VB up. Still legacy affiliations with that deal hanging around. II letter codes still refer to VB in star island resort code). Around the time they started to introduce VIP levels.

 

[BellaWyn]

Flap & Lurk

On the other hand, if any loophole might exist at the moment, I imagine that discussing it at length in an open forum is probably a good way to get the loophole closed. Some things are better suggested privately.

Indeed..... and Wyndham lurks as TUGGERS continue to engage in their circular speculations.

IF there are owners out there that have found a recently successful loophole, they are NOT going to share the method. Resale doesn't hurt WYN as much as people think. It keeps the market stimulated enough to get new (and still somewhat uneducated) owners in and out of their properties and prime targets for the "more points" sales pitch. Only a handful make it to TUG where some are kind enough to offer up the "reality service" almost as aggressively as Wyndham sales. But at least we smile and wave a warm welcome and don't take money out of their pocket.

 

[jebloomquist]

message deleted.

 

[ronparise]

message deleted

 

[timeos2]

Its a great strategy...and when I have 925000 points Ill see if it works for platinum...I could use the 15 guest certificates and unlimited housekeeping

I'll bet, without already knowing, that his "deal" occurred at least 4-5 years ago. Today no amount of temptation or whining gets Wyndham to count resale toward VIP. And if they do they will rescind it shortly after the local office approves it.They will NEVER put it in writing so you have less than nothing when push comes to shove (but they have sold you XX overpriced retail points, your rescind period is over by the time they "discover the error" so you're stuck with unwanted, retail points that didn't accomplish what you wanted/intended.

Believe me, it's been tried many times recently with zero success. Waste your time trying to get it if you want but they aren't doing anything with resale points & VIP now.

 

[am1]

If it was going to work you would have to purchase more than 77k.

 

[jebloomquist]

message deleted

 

[jebloomquist]

message deleted

 

[timeos2]

Still not resale points.

Actually, there is even more to the story.

I purchased the Pahio Bali Hai Villas 3 bedroom Presidential property in April 2011 on ebay for $602. It was floating weeks with a maintenance fee of $1251 per year. I wanted it to be converted to Wyndham points, 450,000 to be exact. So I said for me to purchase the 77k at Wyndham Sedona, Wyndham had to convert the weeks to points. This is actually what I wanted in the first place.

When I did this, the points applied to VIP status. I didn't like the way that Wyndham was to start the maintenance monthly immediately since the full year had already been paid, so I insisted that they not do this. Instead, they said that they would throw in a free week in 2012 at Wyndham Sedona. I said that it had to be a 2 bedroom. They also threw in the bonus 77k to be used in 2 years. This along with my previous purchase and its bonus points are enough for VIP Platinum status for a year. It will revert to VIP Gold in 2013.

You may not believe this, but it is true.

Jim

Ah - technically you did not buy resale POINTS - you bought a week & had it converted, at a good price, to retail points. Interesting approach & if it will be taken regularly that is one way to get to VIP at a lower than "normal" expense and actually gives some value to otherwise usually worthless weeks based Wyndham units (with the exception of fixed, prime weeks -I know). On the other hand you'll pay at least $3-$4K to convert ANY week to points, so unless you find one really cheap that is worth a decent amount of points, plus the retail points you'd still have to buy and, as usual, you're paying more to be VIP than to just buy resale points for the extremely low price they sell for.

IMPORTANT TO NOTE: This is NOT a resale points purchase being used to get VIP as, again, that is NOT allowed now. No known exceptions.

Still, interesting appraoch if for some strange reason you wanted to pay upfront money to be VIP - and the outside chance someday you'll breakeven on it or maybe make $20. Unlikely but if you absolutely have to have it at any cost .....

 

[ronparise]

message deleted