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New Wyndham Policies are a killer!

Have recent changes made your Wyndham VIP ownership problematic?

  • Yes. Our ownership is no longer cost effective.

    Votes: 23 62.2%
  • No. We are still happy with our ownership.

    Votes: 12 32.4%
  • No. The ownership was all ready problematic.

    Votes: 2 5.4%

  • Total voters
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Wyndham sold upgrades and "cancel rebook" as a VIP “carrot” for years. Their new corporate policy has essentially eliminated what they promised/sold as an option...thus doubling the maintenance fee cost. It feels like a major "bait and switch". Are there other VIP owners out there that have made Wyndham work via the cancel/rebook...who are now "thrown under the bus"? It seems Wyndham wants old VIP owners to run to "Ovation" and just give their ownership back, of nothing!, so they can resell other victims.
 

Railman83

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Wyndham sold upgrades and "cancel rebook" as a VIP “carrot” for years. Their new corporate policy has essentially eliminated what they promised/sold as an option...thus doubling the maintenance fee cost. It feels like a major "bait and switch". Are there other VIP owners out there that have made Wyndham work via the cancel/rebook...who are now "thrown under the bus"? It seems Wyndham wants old VIP owners to run to "Ovation" and just give their ownership back, of nothing!, so they can resell other victims.
Platinum betrayed? Cute.
 

ronparise

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Many of us that used the cancel and rebook trick for discounts knew that we were taking advantage of a loophole, and I for one posted on a regular basis that it was a loophole Wyndham knew about and that it was going to end. Even the salesmen would pitch it almost as a secret that they were sharing with just you

The fact is that there was no one thing called cancel and rebook.
There was a cancellation policy that allowed cancellations up to 15 days before check in. And there still is.
There is also a vip discount policy that allows for discounted reservations within 60 days before check in. and there still is.

Nothing has changed regarding these two policies

But of course I can no longer get the discounts I used to enjoy and profit from
 
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am1

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My guess is that too many people talked about it. Or a few people talked about it too much. That brought too much attention and caused too many people to use the trick.
 

TXHiker

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Wyndham sold upgrades and "cancel rebook" as a VIP “carrot” for years. Their new corporate policy has essentially eliminated what they promised/sold as an option...thus doubling the maintenance fee cost. It feels like a major "bait and switch". Are there other VIP owners out there that have made Wyndham work via the cancel/rebook...who are now "thrown under the bus"? It seems Wyndham wants old VIP owners to run to "Ovation" and just give their ownership back, of nothing!, so they can resell other victims.
I am not VIP and I feel like it will be harder to use my purchase as the weasel told me that I could. The changes to points banking makes it hard to envision how to best roll up the points for a big vacation. For me, planning more than one year in advance is very difficult. The old pooling rules were flexible enough that I could work out the problem with planning. But now I have to pick a year, and I believe it is only one of the next two years, not three as before.

A weasel called me to offer a deal to buy points right after the changes were announced. I let him make his pitch, then I told that it was not good enough because the program changes made me mad, and I was not buying at any price.

I don't think I would buy points on ebay either.
 

markb53

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I do think Wyndham did achieve one of their stated goals with the rule changes. That is to make more inventory available. For instance. I live about an hour from Wyndham Canterbury. I've stayed there a few times for short stays in a 1BR. I did a sales presentation there and toured a 3 BR presidential reserve unit. Beautiful unit. Anyway, my point is, over the past several years I've been watching availability for the presidential units at Canterbury in general. And the 3 BR presidential units in particular. Before May 20th, I saw very few presidential units and extremely few 3 BR pres. reserve units. But now they are everywhere. From about 3 months out to 10 months out. I assume this in because owners booking to rent has gone down due to the 48 hour rule for adding a GC and The possible loss of cancel/rebook. Could be this is temporary, as the "mega-renters" figure out how to use the new system. Maybe they are testing the waters to see if they can rent at higher prices to cover the higher costs.
I have noticed this same phenomenon at other resorts, though I haven't been watching other resorts as closely as Canterbury. One thing I do like better about the new website is the ability, in the calendar view, to look for specific unit types. Before it you selected 2 BR, you you would get 2 BR, 2BR deluxe, 2BR lockoff, 2 BR pres. It is nice that you can narrow the search. It would be nicer if you could choose multiple unit types.
 

bogey21

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Don't be too hard on Wyndham. Most of the "Big Boys" devalue their product over time. Many of you know I sold 4 Marriott Weeks over 20 years ago when Marriott started taking away benefits I felt I had purchased. Since then I have watched as others have done the same thing time after time.

George
 

dagger1

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It seems like "points" systems are much easier to degrade/devalue. Deeded Fixed Week/Fixed Unit/ systems are harder to devalue. Close to impossible if you bought exactly what you want when you want it and plan to go every year.
 

ronparise

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I do think Wyndham did achieve one of their stated goals with the rule changes. That is to make more inventory available. For instance. I live about an hour from Wyndham Canterbury. I've stayed there a few times for short stays in a 1BR. I did a sales presentation there and toured a 3 BR presidential reserve unit. Beautiful unit. Anyway, my point is, over the past several years I've been watching availability for the presidential units at Canterbury in general. And the 3 BR presidential units in particular. Before May 20th, I saw very few presidential units and extremely few 3 BR pres. reserve units. But now they are everywhere. From about 3 months out to 10 months out. I assume this in because owners booking to rent has gone down due to the 48 hour rule for adding a GC and The possible loss of cancel/rebook. Could be this is temporary, as the "mega-renters" figure out how to use the new system. Maybe they are testing the waters to see if they can rent at higher prices to cover the higher costs.
I have noticed this same phenomenon at other resorts, though I haven't been watching other resorts as closely as Canterbury. One thing I do like better about the new website is the ability, in the calendar view, to look for specific unit types. Before it you selected 2 BR, you you would get 2 BR, 2BR deluxe, 2BR lockoff, 2 BR pres. It is nice that you can narrow the search. It would be nicer if you could choose multiple unit types.

A 3 bedroom presidential is 625000 points for a week
At $5 per 1000 points that's over $3000 (400/night) When we could count on a 50% discount getting a 3 bedroom at $200 a night, there was money to be made

Now an extra $100 for a second guest confirm is a small thing compared to an extra $200 a night because of no discounts

My point is that the extra guest confirm isn't responsible for more availability. It's the no discount thing that's gonna kill off the mega renters
 

markb53

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A 3 bedroom presidential is 625000 points for a week
At $5 per 1000 points that's over $3000 (400/night) When we could count on a 50% discount getting a 3 bedroom at $200 a night, there was money to be made

Now an extra $100 for a second guest confirm is a small thing compared to an extra $200 a night because of no discounts

My point is that the extra guest confirm isn't responsible for more availability. It's the no discount thing that's gonna kill off the mega renters

There also seems to be more 1BR Deluxe available within 60 days, even weekends. Which is something I didn't see before. That will be good for Platinum owners that just want a weekend in SF. Or to rent to Me. :)
 

breezez

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A 3 bedroom presidential is 625000 points for a week
At $5 per 1000 points that's over $3000 (400/night) When we could count on a 50% discount getting a 3 bedroom at $200 a night, there was money to be made

Now an extra $100 for a second guest confirm is a small thing compared to an extra $200 a night because of no discounts

My point is that the extra guest confirm isn't responsible for more availability. It's the no discount thing that's gonna kill off the mega renters


I don't think it will kill mega's. They will just have to charge more, This also means RCI, EH, and Wyndham can charge more through their various rental channels too since people won't be able to scam for super low prices. I also think it reduces the inventory manipulation that occurred so people could get a 3Bdr Pres. for a 1 Bedroom @ 50% off, allowing greater availability of units to all owners.
 

ronparise

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I don't think it will kill mega's. They will just have to charge more, This also means RCI, EH, and Wyndham can charge more through their various rental channels too since people won't be able to scam for super low prices. I also think it reduces the inventory manipulation that occurred so people could get a 3Bdr Pres. for a 1 Bedroom @ 50% off, allowing greater availability of units to all owners.

If you are right that mega renters will adapt and figure out how to make money at this And if they can no longer get 3 bedrooms at half the studio rate; they will have to make more reservations for the same money

More rentals has to mean less availability for the other owners

But that's all theoretical. Things may change going foreword but for now I know a number of mega renters that are planning to retire, looking for other opportunities, or selling out. I don't know of anyone building a significant position right now. And the points managers are either quitting, taking on no new accounts or changing their business plans significantly
 

markb53

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If you are right that mega renters will adapt and figure out how to make money at this And if they can no longer get 3 bedrooms at half the studio rate; they will have to make more reservations for the same money

More rentals has to mean less availability for the other owners

But that's all theoretical. Things may change going foreword but for now I know a number of mega renters that are planning to retire, looking for other opportunities, or selling out. I don't know of anyone building a significant position right now. And the points managers are either quitting, taking on no new accounts or changing their business plans significantly

I agree with Ron. I really don't see a way forward for the mega renters. I don't think this changes anything for a platinum owner that rents at close to MF cost for points they don't plan to use in a given year, to recover some of their MF. I own a small number of points and I rent when I need extra for very close to my average MF. In the off season when there is inventory at 60 days, the person I rent from extends me the discount. During prime season when you have have to book at 10 months, I pay the full price. If all the small renters raised their prices to $6, $7, or $8 per K, I would probably have to consider picking up another resale if I consistently needed more points.
 

chapjim

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I don't think it will kill mega's. They will just have to charge more,

It's easy to say the megarenters will just charge more. What that really means is their offered price (listed price) will increase. Setting a higher price is not the same thing as getting it.

I'm hardly a megarenter but have done some renting. People were willing to spend say, $850 for a non-event week in a 2BR unit someplace. I don't know if any of those same people or any people at all, will pay $1,600 for the same week. If I cut my margin to near zero, I still won't be able to offer the prices I used to. And if my margin is near zero, why would I continue to bust my whatever doing this? Might as well dump most of my Wyndham ownership. I have enough fixed/floating weeks to take care of family.

Markb53 may be right -- we may be seeing one effect of the policy changes already. Who knows but what some of the effects may have nothing to do with timeshares? An effect may be increases in the sale of tents, camp trailers, and camping equipment as people down-scale their vacation aspirations.
 
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Braindead

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Things may change going foreword but for now I know a number of mega renters that are planning to retire, looking for other opportunities, or selling out. I don't know of anyone building a significant position right now. And the points managers are either quitting, taking on no new accounts or changing their business plans significantly
Is that why there's been more large contracts for sale on eBay lately ? Maybe it's just me but it seems like the amount of big contracts has picked up.

Wyndham did a very big double whammy. I wonder who's brilliant idea it was to implement the new rules and the new website at the same time.
They should of started with the new website. Then implemented the new rules ounce it was actually working. Probably wouldn't of seen anything close to the outcry we see now.

I've read on TUG where Hilton,Marriott and DVC owners have all complained about there website- reservations have been a mess at times also.
I wonder if all hotel reservation systems are that bad behind the seens also.

Is what we are witnessing with Wyndhams reservation system just standard in the industry?
 

Railman83

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Well I have been following and building a position as others have been selling. But my aspirations are for personal use. I will have about 1.6 million points and plan on renting only occasionally (I have 240 Disney points it makes no sense not to rent...pay 6 per year and rent for $15).

In retirement in a couple of years Wyndham gets me 8-12 weeks.

The changes are great for people like me. I have a second home for 2-3 months at 9k per year pretty much anywhere I want to go. I currently own 3 homes, two I rent out and I don't need the hassle of more roofs and hvacs to replace.

If the changes hurt VIP and megarenters how can that not be positive for resale owners who actually want to use the points? I have noted greater availability pretty much everywhere.
 

breezez

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I'm not a VIP, but feel in any system people will find a way to work the system for gain. That is the human nature of most people. That said the prices that people were renting units for were significantly lower by comparison of other places. If VIP costs go up those that stay and rent will do so at a much higher price and smaller margins. Wyndham will not have competition at super low prices that were being offered in the past by VIP's. Don't forget they have inventory they rent via various outlets too. If VIP's were dropping prices significantly it was hurting their rental profits too.

As a non VIP owner, I at 1 point was considering getting rid of my Wyndham, not because I did not like it. But because VIP's renting were renting stuff for cheaper than I could stay with MF's. Example, last summer I stayed a week at National Harbor in 2 BDR Deluxe. I think my cost based MF's was about $1548. The same week of my trip there where multiple units of that size on eBay for rent for $700-$900. If people could rent stuff that cheap makes it hard for me to want to stay an owner if I could rent for significantly less.

Big families will still want nice resorts, and over time and will pay the additional fee's it takes to get them. If you are a going to be a renter you will have to be more selective on the where and when to be profitable.
 

ronparise

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Well I have been following and building a position as others have been selling. But my aspirations are for personal use. I will have about 1.6 million points and plan on renting only occasionally (I have 240 Disney points it makes no sense not to rent...pay 6 per year and rent for $15).

In retirement in a couple of years Wyndham gets me 8-12 weeks.

The changes are great for people like me. I have a second home for 2-3 months at 9k per year pretty much anywhere I want to go. I currently own 3 homes, two I rent out and I don't need the hassle of more roofs and hvacs to replace.

If the changes hurt VIP and megarenters how can that not be positive for resale owners who actually want to use the points? I have noted greater availability pretty much everywhere.

Maybe I've forgotten what it's like to be a small owner, but I don't see 1.6 million as taking a position
And we aren't talking about folks buying for their own use. We are trying to determine the affect of the new rules on rentals and availability
 

Braindead

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If the changes hurt VIP and megarenters how can that not be positive for resale owners who actually want to use the points? I have noted greater availability pretty much everywhere.
I think you may very well be right. I would just say the changes hurt all renters. All owners using their points for their vacations hopefully benefit on availability. It might be surprising on how many discounts and upgrades VIPs get. Their expectations are definitely low and can only be surprised to get more discounts and upgrades.

The new CEO came from Hilton and Hilton doesn't have much of a VIP program. Not much of a difference on how resale is treated verses direct purchase. It will be interesting if that plays into any changes in the future.

I'm like Ron and think the changes are here to stay. We probably won't see anymore changes for several years.
 

ronparise

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I'm like Ron and think the changes are here to stay. We probably won't see anymore changes for several years.

unless someone figures out a way to profit in spite of the new rules.

Ten years ago they thought they had stopped the megarenters, and of course they did. What they didnt count on was a bunch of new guys that figured out new ways to make the system work for them. I have no doubt that the same thing will happen again... It might even be some dumb farmer from Iowa:thumbup:
 

Braindead

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unless someone figures out a way to profit in spite of the new rules.

Ten years ago they thought they had stopped the megarenters, and of course they did. What they didnt count on was a bunch of new guys that figured out new ways to make the system work for them. I have no doubt that the same thing will happen again... It might even be some dumb farmer from Iowa:thumbup:
Why would anyone want to become a mega renter or point manager in the future ?
About the time you become successful and build a customer base Wyndham will deem you an annoyance and put you out of business.
Atleast that's what I've learned here. I'd rather stay under Wyndhams radar.
 

vacationhopeful

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Trains used to be the best way to travel 500 to 1500 miles in the USA. Planes were noisy, flew only during clear weather, in day light AND would crashed when they ran into a flock of birds.

Wyndham inventory will eventually have new rental companies offering units to the general public.

Currently, the largest megarenter would likely be Extra Holidays.

Planes have now transported MORE individuals that trains for years.

Everything changes over time .. yet tends to remain basicly the same.

Trains, planes or vacation rentals.
 

jebloomquist

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I do think Wyndham did achieve one of their stated goals with the rule changes. That is to make more inventory available. For instance. I live about an hour from Wyndham Canterbury. I've stayed there a few times for short stays in a 1BR. I did a sales presentation there and toured a 3 BR presidential reserve unit. Beautiful unit. Anyway, my point is, over the past several years I've been watching availability for the presidential units at Canterbury in general. And the 3 BR presidential units in particular. Before May 20th, I saw very few presidential units and extremely few 3 BR pres. reserve units. But now they are everywhere. From about 3 months out to 10 months out. I assume this in because owners booking to rent has gone down due to the 48 hour rule for adding a GC and The possible loss of cancel/rebook. Could be this is temporary, as the "mega-renters" figure out how to use the new system. Maybe they are testing the waters to see if they can rent at higher prices to cover the higher costs.
I have noticed this same phenomenon at other resorts, though I haven't been watching other resorts as closely as Canterbury. One thing I do like better about the new website is the ability, in the calendar view, to look for specific unit types. Before it you selected 2 BR, you you would get 2 BR, 2BR deluxe, 2BR lockoff, 2 BR pres. It is nice that you can narrow the search. It would be nicer if you could choose multiple unit types.
 

jebloomquist

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I haven't seen those wonderful availabilities at Canterbury. I just spent a week there. I have a 1 bedroom with the upgrade option set. It was never upgraded.
 

SmithOp

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The new CEO came from Hilton and Hilton doesn't have much of a VIP program. Not much of a difference on how resale is treated verses direct purchase. It will be interesting if that plays into any changes in the future.

I'm like Ron and think the changes are here to stay. We probably won't see anymore changes for several years.

I don't have a dog in this fight, own Hilton, but its been interesting reading all the threads about the program and website changes. Hilton charges transaction fees for just about everything, and raises them every year. I suspect that is where the changes will occur. Hilton does have an Elite (VIP) program that eliminates some or all fees depending on level but that is about the only worthwhile benefit in the program.


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